Maj Abdul Wahab Shaheed.....Sitara e Jurat,Tamgha e Bisalat.

[Panther 57]

Unfortunately the best don't always make it do the top;

very right but those who make it are also well groomed through education.

 

[Armstrong]

very right but those who make it are also well groomed through education.

They are but imagine if more brilliant soldiers with a proven track record with the FC like Tariq Khan Sahib rose to the ranks of Generalship !

 

[Bratva]

so you are comparing 1960s with todays military what a joke buddy

No he is not joking, Situation is still more or less same about upper echelons of Pak Army. e.g read this incident

By the way guys, what has been missed is the video in the first post.

That video was made just after the deadliest ambush in South Waziristan in 2009. I believe its still the deadliest since the war began, i won't tell the exact figures, but many soldiers were martyred and for the stupidity of some senior commanders and the Maj Gen who was then incharge and made the fiasco is now promoted as Lt Gen. We lost a Lt Col, a Capt or Major & a Lt plus dozens of soldiers in this single ambush. Hadn't the air support came on time, we may have lost more. I have seen other videos of this ambush and they are gruesome, soldiers bodies cut in half or fully burned etc etc. Terrible. Saw the martyred Lt Col's picture after his martyrdom, he was looking so fresh. Also saw his video of talking to soldiers just before the ambush also.

The ambush happened on 28th June, 2009:

Taliban kill 12 soldiers in North Waziristan ambush - The Long War Journal

And Lt Col Tahir Iqbal leading from the front gave his life and the stupid commanders who made this fiasco got promoted and no questions asked from them about this deadliest ambush in the history of PA so far.

Leiutenant Colonel Tahir Iqbal Shaheed


And pathetic are the people who tell these brave volunteers to shut the fcuk up. In reality these pathetic countrymen should shut the fcuk up and if possible do their work properly if they can't volunteer to serve this nation and give life for it.

Total figures are near to correct, no issue in that.

The high side in such issues is deliberately not told, not that they don't wanna share the truth, but for morale purposes.

As for that fiasco, its a complex issue, just will tell in brief that the lower commanders including the Lt Col were not OK with the orders to move out, they had some intel, thus they asked for air cover to be provided before they enter this area which by the way is very notorious since the British times as lot of ambushes have taken place in this specific are including an earlier ambush in the same place which also saw 15 or so men dead. So the Maj Gen ordered to move out without air cover and disaster happened. The men only got saved after the air cover got there, you can hear the young Lt making the video pointing at the Cobra and calling it its savior.

And as for that eid incident, if i am right, it happened in 2009, on Eid Ul Fitr, as i was right in my home town when casualties were brought in the next day and whole night i had to stay awake due to the murderous artillery barrage that was started from my home town and the guns were hardly 150 meters away from the place i was staying. I do believe they fired something close to 120-150 rounds or so during the night. Lost a few men too in that ambush. All happened in the North Waziristan section.

 

[Icarus]

Yaaar waisee @Xeric @Icarus @Irfan Baloch @DESERT FIGHTER @Rashid Mahmood - We've got the best jawans & lower-to-mid rank officers in the world !

Our leadership comes from the same lot, and by convention, they should be and are, the cream of the crop. A good soldier is cannon fodder without a good commander.

 

[Armstrong]

Our leadership comes from the same lot, and by convention, they should be and are, the cream of the crop. A good soldier is cannon fodder without a good commander.

Yaaar come on a myriad lapses are testament to our less than optimal foresight on a strategic level - From Kashmir in '48 to Kargil in '99 we've squandered away the, at times, audaciously impossible inroads made by our valiant officers & jawans because the High Command couldn't convert tactical brilliance into strategic success !

 

[Icarus]

Yaaar come on a myriad lapses are testament to our less than optimal foresight on a strategic level - From Kashmir in '48 to Kargil in '99 we've squandered away the, at times, audaciously impossible inroads made by our valiant officers & jawans because the High Command couldn't convert tactical brilliance into strategic success !

Strategy is not a fool proof game and hindsight is a blessing that these commanders did not have at the time, any time you are criticizing a commander's decisions, keep in mind that these decisions were taken in the heat of battle, with very limited knowledge of the situation and whilst facing an enemy that enjoys significant superiority in number.

By the way, 48 happened because we had a British CIC.

It's easier to look back at them now and, with all the stats and figures in hand, point to their utter inability to comprehend them.

 

[Armstrong]

Strategy is not a fool proof game and hindsight is a blessing that these commanders did not have at the time, any time you are criticizing a commander's decisions, keep in mind that these decisions were taken in the heat of battle, with very limited knowledge of the situation and whilst facing an enemy that enjoys significant superiority in number.

By the way, 48 happened because we had a British CIC.

Janab what matters at the end of the day are 'results'; in War you don't get a medal for 'a Good Effort' !

'48 was just an example & I'm sure you must've heard about the bravery of our boys when crossing River Tavi (I think thats what its called); my Grandpa told me (he was in the Army at that time) that his colleagues who served there told him that they began crossing over at night in sub-zero temperatures with Indian bunkers firing at them on the other side & succeeded in smashing those bunkers to devastating effect but by the time the sun rose...the river was red with the blood of our martyrs !

Has an iota of that kind of service to the country above & beyond the call of duty been replicated by the higher-ups by displaying astounding strategic acumen like the Israelis have in every single conflict ?

I'm sure the common Jawan who fought till the very end in Kargil never complained that 'at least I put up a good effort or that I hadn't the benefit of hindsight' !

Take Akhnor for example in the '65 War - If the High Command hand't stuttered & let Maj.Gen Akhtar Malik continue on we might have been seeing a very...very different map of Kashmir today but for heaven's knows what reason they gave they enemy what was it 2 days to bolster the defenses before, if memory serves, me Moosa Khan came up to the frontline !

 

[Icarus]

Janab what matters at the end of the day are 'results'; in War you don't get a medal for 'a Good Effort' !

The fact that this nation still stands despite all odds, is quite an achievement in itself.

'48 was just an example & I'm sure you must've heard about the bravery of our boys when crossing River Tavi (I think thats what its called); my Grandpa told me (he was in the Army at that time) that his colleagues who served there told him that they began crossing over at night in sub-zero temperatures with Indian bunkers firing at them on the other side & succeeded in smashing those bunkers to devastating effect but by the time the sun rose...the river was red with the blood of our martyrs !

48 was tainted by the British Commanders.

Has an iota of that kind of service to the country above & beyond the call of duty been replicated by the higher-ups by displaying astounding strategic acumen like the Israelis have in every single conflict ?

The Israelis have enjoyed complete superiority over the Arab Forces and a technological advantage whereby at any time, they are a generation ahead of the Arabs.

I'm sure the common Jawan who fought till the very end in Kargil never complained that 'at least I put up a good effort or that I hadn't the benefit of hindsight' !

No one goes in with that mindset, especially not the commander.

Take Akhnor for example in the '65 War - If the High Command hand't stuttered & let Maj.Gen Akhtar Malik continue on we might have been seeing a very...very different map of Kashmir today but for heaven's knows what reason they gave they enemy what was it 2 days to bolster the defenses before, if memory serves, me Moosa Khan came up to the frontline !

Once again, you can make this declaration in hindsight. The commanders at the time did not have this luxury.

 

[Armstrong]

The fact that this nation still stands despite all odds, is quite an achievement in itself.

48 was tainted by the British Commanders.

The Israelis have enjoyed complete superiority over the Arab Forces and a technological advantage whereby at any time, they are a generation ahead of the Arabs.

No one goes in with that mindset, especially not the commander.

Once again, you can make this declaration in hindsight. The commanders at the time did not have this luxury.

First of - Thank my previous posts !

Secondly - Explanations are Excuses !

For how long can we make this excuse 'benefit of hindsight' ? If that were the answer to all failures or shortcomings - Nothing would ever get analyzed !

Or do we plan on saying the next time when we squander away the sacrifices of our officers & jawans in the line of duty due to strategic inadequacy we'd say 'ohhh well we tried but you're just saying that because of the benefit of hindsight' !

Name me a single Operation that we carried out with strategic brilliance in an Indo-Pak conflict ? Heck even Kargil would've been brilliant had it been carried out in '65 or even '71 or even during the start of the Siachin Conflict but on its own ? What the heck were Musharraf, Nawaz & others were thinking ?

Thirdly - Rumor has it Sethi Sahib that you are the nephew of Najam Sethi ?

 

[Armstrong]

@Icarus - No reply !

 

[Icarus]

@Icarus - No reply !

Yaar will do. Right now, Airport situation.

First of - Thank my previous posts !

Will Do.

Secondly - Explanations are Excuses !

They are setting the record straight.

For how long can we make this excuse 'benefit of hindsight' ? If that were the answer to all failures or shortcomings - Nothing would ever get analyzed !

Its not an excuse, its an important consideration when analyzing past operations.

Or do we plan on saying the next time when we squander away the sacrifices of our officers & jawans in the line of duty due to strategic inadequacy we'd say 'ohhh well we tried but you're just saying that because of the benefit of hindsight' !

Its never about an excuse and its never about winning, its not a game, in conflict you make do with what you get and try to minimize losses, you don't always have to win the entire table.

Name me a single Operation that we carried out with strategic brilliance in an Indo-Pak conflict ? Heck even Kargil would've been brilliant had it been carried out in '65 or even '71 or even during the start of the Siachin Conflict but on its own ? What the heck were Musharraf, Nawaz & others were thinking ?

Have you heard about the Defence of Hilli?

Thirdly - Rumor has it Sethi Sahib that you are the nephew of Najam Sethi ?

Oh Warr Tu, Butta! Aye ki gal keeti aye, mood hi kharab kar chaddya aye.

 

[Armstrong]

Yaar will do. Right now, Airport situation.

Okay I just hope that @Xeric doesn't read my posts & goes the following on me :-

Cause he is very touchy about his Superiors; rumor has it that once his Boss said 'Xeric meraa tum par sehh trust utthhh giyaa haiii' & our lad here said 'Sir now I've lost all honor & must regain it through the performance of Harakiri - Seppuku' - Bariii mushkil seh janaab ko rokaa thaaa :-

Just kidding Xeric !

Ghusssaa nahin karnaa !

 

[Armstrong]

@Xeric - No reply ?

Eik hi pal mein paraya kar diyaaa ?

 

[Xeric]

@Armstrong
i will try to explain it once and there after i'll actually do to you what Tyson did in your post #27.

Just as @Icarus have tried explaining but you are unable to understand it; it is easy today to analyze the decisions of senior commanders as we have a clear picture of both the sides available to us. We now know what commanders at both the sides were thinking and what was the situation on ground at that point of time, a luxury which was not available to people on ground back then.

For example, we now know that the attack on Lahore was not the Main effort of enemy, but Sialkot was where the main attack was aimed at. Now imagine, what paralysis would have existed in the minds of Pakistani commanders till the time it was not clear where the enemy was actually aiming at.

Now also consider the situation of the Indian commander who stopped its advance towards Lahore as he found no resistance at all in the initial stages on 6 September and he thought that it is probably a trap by Pakistan to lure in his forces in a killing zone, but infact there was no resistance because Indians were able to achieve strategic surprise and we were doing PT that morning. This 'mistake' by the Indian GOC costed him Lahore but i dont see you or the Indians yapping about it.

Now, Mr Armstrong, you can still 'criticize' either of the commanders for their failure to understand and grasp the situation, but then you have to understand that on 9 June 2014 doing this easy as today we know the entire story have the complete picture, which was not available to them back then.

 

[Armstrong]

Now, Mr Armstrong.....which was not available to them back then.

Okay...okay, I get it !

But calling me 'Mr' Armstrong - Yaaar yeh tou dil tooor diyaa meraaa....so formal !

Bandaa choteiii Bhai ko iss tarhan dant-taa haii ? It means you don't consider me a Brother anymore ?