Terrorism in my opinion needs a two pronged attack. One is anyone who promotes or carries out terrorism acts should be treated as a criminal. But the second prong is we need to launch a campaign to win hearts and minds. For example those american drones may be efective in killing some terrorists but collateral damage produces more terrorists. I remember at the time of the attack on the twin towers and I thought what is it that makes these nutters do this. But then I remembered two years earlier I had seen on news an incident where an israeli soldier bullet bounced off a wall killing a small child in the hands of his father who was carrying him. Then i realised how much we love our children and I thought if you are in the situation of that man whose child was killed and you had no chance to get justice through peaceful means ie courts etc then you would resort to anything for vengence. Just remember most of the 9/11 attackers were arabs who were fed with a daily diet of their people being killed
Madina model vital for defence of Pakistan: Saeed
- Thread starter Yeti
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Terrorism in my opinion needs a two pronged attack. One is anyone who promotes or carries out terrorism acts should be treated as a criminal. But the second prong is we need to launch a campaign to win hearts and minds. For example those american drones may be efective in killing some terrorists but collateral damage produces more terrorists. I remember at the time of the attack on the twin towers and I thought what is it that makes these nutters do this. But then I remembered two years earlier I had seen on news an incident where an israeli soldier bullet bounced off a wall killing a small child in the hands of his father who was carrying him. Then i realised how much we love our children and I thought if you are in the situation of that man whose child was killed and you had no chance to get justice through peaceful means ie courts etc then you would resort to anything for vengence. Just remember most of the 9/11 attackers were arabs who were fed with a daily diet of their people being killed
JonAsad
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Hafiz Saeed is a Pakistani national- he is innocent until proven guilty-
For him to be guilty some indians word of mouth doesn't count- evidence does- prepare a case and have him extracted- like responsible nations do-
For him to be guilty some indians word of mouth doesn't count- evidence does- prepare a case and have him extracted- like responsible nations do-
Yeti
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I saw that video also it was very sad but the likes of Saeed are career jihadis until they die, I mean the likes of him and his cult group were carrying out prayers for Bin ladin and even crying! how can there be peace if we let such activities go on without some sort of punishment or making a example out of them.
Taking out criminals is just half the job. We need to educate masses. we need to have heart and minds campaign. Yet i been looking at your posts. If someone is aggressive to you you are 10 times aggressive, if someone is nice you are ten times nice back similarly people can not be forced into submission. you have to show them they are wrong why they are wrong in a nice way. I am the same. Basically to truly win this battle you have to win hearts and minds to deprive these criminals a fertile soil to recruit from. We spend millions and billions on killing we need at least spend a fraction to win the hearts
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There are no proofs against hafiz saeed , further more he never said/done any thing against Pakistan (things he said about osama are his personal views and he can have them as long as he don't harm society).
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Yes who created Frankenstein-Americans/Saudis/Pakistanis are all guilty. But today everyone forgets American part
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Yeti
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Donatello
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Sure but a bullet in the back of your head says otherwiseaka Operation Wrath of God Mossad style.
---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 PM ----------
Did that alreadywhere it get us? when Pakistan protects him
There are more people dying in India every month from accidents/mishaps than 26/11. You wanna move forward or be stuck in the past? The choice is yours!
Yeti
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David Headley case: Estranged wife's statement may nail LeT's Hafeez Saeed - Economic Times
---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------
Accidents happen everywhere but cutting a pregnant women's stomach open aka 26/11 style does not happen everyday don't you say?
---------- Post added at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------
Accidents happen everywhere but cutting a pregnant women's stomach open aka 26/11 style does not happen everyday don't you say?
StandForInsaf
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No proof has been officially provided to Pakistan nor presented in courts.
aah yeti if there is proof it must be given and shown to Pak govt, if they don't act act I am sure they will but if not then you take it to UN
Yeti
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Recent developments say otherwise there is a Pakistani commision which we have just shared all our data with.
---------- Post added at 04:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:05 PM ----------
A Pakistani-born man living in northern Virginia was charged with trying to help a militant group in his home country, Lashkar-e-Taiba, and making false statements to authorities, U.S. prosecutors said on Friday.
Jubair Ahmad, 24, was accused of providing material support to the group, Lashkar-e-Taiba, "a designated foreign terrorist organization, and making false statements in a terrorism investigation," the complaint said.
Lashkar-e-Taiba was designated in 2001 by the United States as a foreign terrorist organization.
When he was a teenager, in 2004, he attended an LeT training course and at one point he attended a commando course but he only spent a week there because his instructor told him he was too young, according to the complaint.
He was accused of posting in September 2010 on YouTube a propaganda video backing LeT, an anti-Indian militant group with historically close ties to Pakistan's top spy agencies.
Jubair communicated with the son of LeT leader Hafiz Mohammed Saeed about making the video, which included images of the leader, "jihadi martyrs and armored trucks exploding after having been hit by improvised explosive devices," prosecutors said.
When confronted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agents last month with the video, he falsely denied seeing it previously, according to the affidavit filed in support of the complaint.
The group has been accused of being behind the 2008 Mumbai attack that killed 166 people, including six Americans.
Jubair received religious training from LeT as a teenager in Pakistan and later attended LeT's basic training camp, according to an affidavit filed in federal court in Virginia.
He made an initial appearance in an Alexandria, Virginia, federal court where a judge ordered that he be held pending a preliminary and detention hearing set for Wednesday. He was also appointed a public defender.
He entered the United States in 2007 along with other family members, and in 2009 the FBI launched an investigation after receiving information Jubair might be associated with LeT, prosecutors said. He is in the country as a lawful permanent resident.
Anyway at least the world knows the truth of that there is no doubt
---------- Post added at 04:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ----------
UN has already listed him with sanctions etc but what did Pakistan do? nothing they released him
---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:07 PM ----------
it's not Pakistani goverment's fault i know the power LET/JUD have with the masses nobody can touch them
StandForInsaf
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world also knows illegal Indian occupation on Kashmir and UN has given resolution on it what about that?
StandForInsaf
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RESOLUTION 47 (1948) ON THE INDIA-PAKISTAN QUESTION SUBMITTED JOINTLY BY THE REPRESENTATIVES FOR BELGIUM, CANADA, CHINA, COLUMBIA, THE UNITED KINGDOM AND UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 286TH MEETING HELD ON 21 APRIL, 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/726, DATED THE 21ST APRIL, 1948).
THE SECURITY COUNCIL
Having considered the complaint of the Government of India concerning the dispute over the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having heard the representative of India in support of that complaint and the reply and counter complaints of the representative of Pakistan,
Being strongly of opinion that the early restoration of peace and order in Jammu and Kashmir in essential and that India and Pakistan should do their utmost to bring about cessation of all fighting,
Noting with satisfaction that both India and Pakistan desire that the question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite,
Considering that the continuation of the dispute is likely to endanger international peace and security,
Reaffirms its resolution 38 (1948) of 17 January 1948;
Resolves that the membership of the Commission established by its resolution 39 (1948) of 20 January 1948, shall be increased to five and shall include, in addition to the membership mentioned in that Resolution, representatives of ....and ..., and that if the membership of the commission has not been completed within ten days from the date of the adoption of this resolution the President of the Council may designate such other Member or Members of the United Nations as are required to complete the membership of five;
Instructs the Commission to proceed at once to the Indian sub-continent and there place its good offices and mediation at the disposal of the Governments of India and Pakistan with a view to facilitating the taking of the necessary measures, both with respect to the restoration peace and order and to the holding of a plebiscite by the two Governments, acting in co-operation with one another and with the Commission, and further instructs the Commission to keep the Council informed of the action taken under the resolution; and, to this end,
Recommends to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following measures as those which in the opinion of the Council and appropriate to bring about a cessation of the fighting and to create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscite to decide whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan.
A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER
The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:
To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;
To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order.
The Government of India should:
When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order;
Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;
When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:
That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;
That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;
That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area.
The Government of India should agree that until such time as the plebiscite administration referred to below finds it necessary to exercise the powers of direction and supervision over the State forces and policy provided for in paragraph 8, they will be held in areas to be agreed upon with the Plebiscite Administrator.
After the plan referred to in paragraph 2(a) above has been put into operation, personnel recruited locally in each district should so far as possible be utilized for the reestablishment and maintenance of law and order with due regard to protection of minorities, subject to such additional requirements as may be specified by the Plebiscite Administration referred to in paragraph 7.
If these local forces should be found to be inadequate, the Commission, subject to the agreement of both the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan, should arrange for the use of such forces of either Dominion as it deems effective for the purpose of pacification.
B - PLEBISCITE
The Government of India should undertake to ensure that the Government of the State invite the major political groups to designate responsible representatives to share equitably and fully in the conduct of the administration at the ministerial level, while the plebiscite is being prepared and carried out.
The Government of India should undertake that there will be established in Jammu and Kashmir a Plebiscite Administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of the accession of the State to India or Pakistan.
The Government of India should undertake that there will be delegated by the State to the Plebiscite Administration such powers as the latter considers necessary for holding a fair and impartial plebiscite including, for that purpose only, the direction and supervision of the State forces and police.
The Government of India should at the request of the Plebiscite Administration, make available from the Indian forces such assistance as the Plebiscite Administration may require for the performance of its functions.
The Government of India should agree that a nominee of the Secretary-General of the United Nations will be appointed to be the Plebiscite Administrator.
The Plebiscite Administrator, acting as an officer of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, should have authority to nominate the assistants and other subordinates and to draft regulations governing the Plebiscite. Such nominees should be formally appointed and such draft regulations should be formally promulgated by the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
The Government of India should undertake that the Government of Jammu and Kashmir will appoint fully qualified persons nominated by the Plebiscite Administrator to act as special magistrates within the State judicial system to hear cases which in the opinion of the Plebiscite Administrator have a serious bearing on the preparation and the conduct of a free and impartial plebiscite.
The terms of service of the Administrator should form the subject of a separate negotiation between the Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Government of India. The Administrator should fix the terms of service for his assistants and subordinates.
The Administrator should have the right to communicate directly, with the Government of the State and with the Commission of the Security Council and, through the Commission, with the Security Council, with the Governments of India and Pakistan and with their representatives with the Commission. It would be his duty to bring to the notice of any or all of the foregoing (as he in his discretion may decide) any circumstances arising which may tend, in his opinion, to interfere with the freedom of the Plebiscite.
The Government of India should undertake to prevent and to give full support to the Administrator and his staff in preventing any threat, coercion or intimidation, bribery or other undue influence on the voters in the plebiscite, and the government of India should publicly announce and should cause the Government of the State to announce this undertaking as an international obligation binding on all public authorities and officials in Jammu and Kashmir.
The Government of India should themselves and through the government of the State declare and make known that all subjects of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, regardless of creed, caste or party, will be safe and free in expressing their views and in voting on the question of the accession of the State and that there will be freedom of the Press, speech and assembly and freedom of travel in the State, including freedom of lawful entry and exit.
The Government of India should use and should ensure that the Government of the State also use their best endeavor to effect the withdrawal from the State of all Indian nationals other than those who are normally resident therein or who on or since l5th August 1947 have entered it for a lawful purpose.
The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and take all possible steps so that:
all citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited and are free to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens;
there is no victimization;
minorities in all parts of the State are accorded adequate protection.
The Commission of the Security Council should at the end of the plebiscite certify to the Council whether the plebiscite has or has not been really free and impartial.
C-GENERAL PROVISIONS
The Governments of India and Pakistan should each be invited to nominate a representative to be attached to the Commission for such assistance as it may require in the performance of its task.
The Commission should establish in Jammu and Kashmir such observers as it may require of any of the proceedings in pursuance of the measures indicated in the foregoing paragraphs.
The Security Council Commission should carry out the tasks assigned to it herein.
THE SECURITY COUNCIL
Having considered the complaint of the Government of India concerning the dispute over the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having heard the representative of India in support of that complaint and the reply and counter complaints of the representative of Pakistan,
Being strongly of opinion that the early restoration of peace and order in Jammu and Kashmir in essential and that India and Pakistan should do their utmost to bring about cessation of all fighting,
Noting with satisfaction that both India and Pakistan desire that the question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite,
Considering that the continuation of the dispute is likely to endanger international peace and security,
Reaffirms its resolution 38 (1948) of 17 January 1948;
Resolves that the membership of the Commission established by its resolution 39 (1948) of 20 January 1948, shall be increased to five and shall include, in addition to the membership mentioned in that Resolution, representatives of ....and ..., and that if the membership of the commission has not been completed within ten days from the date of the adoption of this resolution the President of the Council may designate such other Member or Members of the United Nations as are required to complete the membership of five;
Instructs the Commission to proceed at once to the Indian sub-continent and there place its good offices and mediation at the disposal of the Governments of India and Pakistan with a view to facilitating the taking of the necessary measures, both with respect to the restoration peace and order and to the holding of a plebiscite by the two Governments, acting in co-operation with one another and with the Commission, and further instructs the Commission to keep the Council informed of the action taken under the resolution; and, to this end,
Recommends to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following measures as those which in the opinion of the Council and appropriate to bring about a cessation of the fighting and to create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscite to decide whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan.
A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER
The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:
To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;
To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order.
The Government of India should:
When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order;
Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;
When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:
That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;
That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;
That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area.
The Government of India should agree that until such time as the plebiscite administration referred to below finds it necessary to exercise the powers of direction and supervision over the State forces and policy provided for in paragraph 8, they will be held in areas to be agreed upon with the Plebiscite Administrator.
After the plan referred to in paragraph 2(a) above has been put into operation, personnel recruited locally in each district should so far as possible be utilized for the reestablishment and maintenance of law and order with due regard to protection of minorities, subject to such additional requirements as may be specified by the Plebiscite Administration referred to in paragraph 7.
If these local forces should be found to be inadequate, the Commission, subject to the agreement of both the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan, should arrange for the use of such forces of either Dominion as it deems effective for the purpose of pacification.
B - PLEBISCITE
The Government of India should undertake to ensure that the Government of the State invite the major political groups to designate responsible representatives to share equitably and fully in the conduct of the administration at the ministerial level, while the plebiscite is being prepared and carried out.
The Government of India should undertake that there will be established in Jammu and Kashmir a Plebiscite Administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of the accession of the State to India or Pakistan.
The Government of India should undertake that there will be delegated by the State to the Plebiscite Administration such powers as the latter considers necessary for holding a fair and impartial plebiscite including, for that purpose only, the direction and supervision of the State forces and police.
The Government of India should at the request of the Plebiscite Administration, make available from the Indian forces such assistance as the Plebiscite Administration may require for the performance of its functions.
The Government of India should agree that a nominee of the Secretary-General of the United Nations will be appointed to be the Plebiscite Administrator.
The Plebiscite Administrator, acting as an officer of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, should have authority to nominate the assistants and other subordinates and to draft regulations governing the Plebiscite. Such nominees should be formally appointed and such draft regulations should be formally promulgated by the State of Jammu and Kashmir.
The Government of India should undertake that the Government of Jammu and Kashmir will appoint fully qualified persons nominated by the Plebiscite Administrator to act as special magistrates within the State judicial system to hear cases which in the opinion of the Plebiscite Administrator have a serious bearing on the preparation and the conduct of a free and impartial plebiscite.
The terms of service of the Administrator should form the subject of a separate negotiation between the Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Government of India. The Administrator should fix the terms of service for his assistants and subordinates.
The Administrator should have the right to communicate directly, with the Government of the State and with the Commission of the Security Council and, through the Commission, with the Security Council, with the Governments of India and Pakistan and with their representatives with the Commission. It would be his duty to bring to the notice of any or all of the foregoing (as he in his discretion may decide) any circumstances arising which may tend, in his opinion, to interfere with the freedom of the Plebiscite.
The Government of India should undertake to prevent and to give full support to the Administrator and his staff in preventing any threat, coercion or intimidation, bribery or other undue influence on the voters in the plebiscite, and the government of India should publicly announce and should cause the Government of the State to announce this undertaking as an international obligation binding on all public authorities and officials in Jammu and Kashmir.
The Government of India should themselves and through the government of the State declare and make known that all subjects of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, regardless of creed, caste or party, will be safe and free in expressing their views and in voting on the question of the accession of the State and that there will be freedom of the Press, speech and assembly and freedom of travel in the State, including freedom of lawful entry and exit.
The Government of India should use and should ensure that the Government of the State also use their best endeavor to effect the withdrawal from the State of all Indian nationals other than those who are normally resident therein or who on or since l5th August 1947 have entered it for a lawful purpose.
The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and take all possible steps so that:
all citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited and are free to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens;
there is no victimization;
minorities in all parts of the State are accorded adequate protection.
The Commission of the Security Council should at the end of the plebiscite certify to the Council whether the plebiscite has or has not been really free and impartial.
C-GENERAL PROVISIONS
The Governments of India and Pakistan should each be invited to nominate a representative to be attached to the Commission for such assistance as it may require in the performance of its task.
The Commission should establish in Jammu and Kashmir such observers as it may require of any of the proceedings in pursuance of the measures indicated in the foregoing paragraphs.
The Security Council Commission should carry out the tasks assigned to it herein.
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