Lord of the Rings and the Tolkien Universe

[Jungibaaz]

Want them to create movies about parts of the world that's mentioned little. I know the world is huge.

The last movies better not be the end.

You're right, Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit are only concerned with a small part called 'Middle Earth', which isn't the entire world, the world is called 'Arda', and the universe called 'Ea'.

The entirety of the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit books and films are contained within this red circle:

What makes it even bigger is, the size is multidimensional, so not only has that small circle been covered and the rest missing, but the Lord of the Rings only makes up about 70-80 years span. (2940 TA - 3018 TA). TA = Third Age.

There are some tens of thousands of years of lore yet to cover and multiple great stories.
Although, the stories are non quite as detailed or filmable as the lord of the rings. And the Tolkien estate only sold the rights for film for LOTR and the Hobbit so far, they aren't going to sell any of the Legendarium.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Yes, I've seen timelines some time ago, and was amazed at how huge it was. Didnt see the full map like that though.

Tolkien should sell it, and let other's create new avatars. I personally thought Lucas selling the star wars franchise to Disney was a fine move.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Yes, I've seen timelines some time ago, and was amazed at how huge it was. Didnt see the full make like that though.

Tolkien should sell it, and let other's create new avatars. I personally thought Lucas selling the star wars franchise to Disney was a fine move.

Tolkien himself died ago, Christopher Tolkien, his son, now is in charge of it all. And he doesn't want to sell the rights for the rest of the work.

But there is also good reason for not doing so, for example, all other major work and stories/lore is found briefly summarised in The Silmarillion and it is IMPOSSIBLE to make a film out of, the timeline for that is probably 10,000 years at least, the characters there are far too many, and some of it is unfilmable, like the Ainulindale (Music of the Ainur) which describes the creation of the world, or the war of powers where demi-Gods fought, sieges and battles that lasted years rather than days.

I do hope that when the younger Tolkien estate people are in charge, they do sell some of the rights.

 

[Jungibaaz]

@Jungibaaz Landed on this thread from yours....any views on this

Like I said, I do disagree with the following post and here is why:

I agree with that idea Mordor is Turkey as a Turk since I am very familiar with the book and movie. Sam try to save his friend under a crescent in mordor, characters implies dozens of times that is west-east issue, mordor on map very similar to Turkey, Rohan cavalry charge is the same as what happened in Ottoman siege of Vienna and lots of other things. Also writer himself was in ww1 and lost 3 friends,(check his biography) believing every British propaganda told to British soldiers(they were claiming we eat human flesh) furthermore after long allied bombardment some coasts of Turkey were exactly like Mordor(in real not so different from rest of continental Europe). It seems like he really believed that they were there to save western world from evil Turks. I respect the guy for his work, but in mind he is no different from Anders Behring Breivik the Oslo bomber or the Crusaders who were saving Constantinople by plundering it while it was still Christian. Scapegoat Turks are always there to blame

And here's why:

Firstly, before I state anything, Tolkien hated, disliked very much any allegory, people have claimed that LOTR is about WWI, especially since he fought in it, some say it's about WWII, which he lived through and that Hitler = Sauron. All of this is false, and said to be false by Tolkien himself. If you read any of his books, often in the prologue or notes on the text, there is quoted a letter from Tolkien to Stanley Unwin telling him about how much he does not like allegory.

But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author. - J.R.R Tolkien

Now as for the points themselves, the races of Tolkien are not comparable to the races of earth. You have Elves (Eldar or Firstborn) that are like men, come in several sub races and can live forever should premature death or murder not take them. There are dwarves who were created by Aule, who are a completely different race and have no links with Elves or Humans (Edain or Secondborn). The Humans (Edain) are like us, and have races. The Hobbits are sub races. And Orcs were originally Elves that were captured by Morgoth and tortured and mutilated in mockery of God's work, and then later bred with humans and other races to make them better soldiers. So it is foolish to compare 'Turks' a people of our world to this complex and completely different world.

Sam tries to save Frodo form a crescent? This is false, I've also read the books, Sam does no such thing. The crescent moon reference is odd, and it's described to the best of my opinion to be 'waning' which means that he recalled the journey into Mordor and how the light of the moon, the last light left their sight, or perhaps how the terror of Minas Morgul (Minas Ithil = Tower of the moon) reminds him so. It has literally nothing to do with Islamic, or Turkic symbolism.

In fact, the moon is an object of great poetry and beauty in Tolkiens work. Before the Sun and the Moon were created, for a time, the lights of the world were broken, and the only thing lighting them were stars. And the Noldor came to Beleriand, and hosts of Fingolfin arrived at the rising of the moon, and the moon is said to be wrought of the last fruit of the silver Telperion.

Also, the rest of the post is, if you don't mind me saying, rubbish.... there is no link for what he is saying there, Rohan is this, and Mordor is that... totally baseless. I could easily say that the Mongol cavalry is Rohan, or perhaps the charge of the light brigade inspired him to make the horse lords. Thoughts like this is frankly insulting to one of the greatest story tellers of our time.

Besides, my last point is, once you know the depth of LOTR and the world he created, silly comparisons like this seem false then, there are books and books of history where he describes things that you cannot compare anything in our world to, it would be silly to assume he sets up this elaborate mythology only to go and add some silly allegory about Turks and WWI.

It's false, in it's entirety. I could go on for a few more pages if needed, but it suffices that this is false.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Probably one of the best quotes of The Silmarillion:

Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

​

That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for... alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for... Fingolfin named Morgoth craven.... Therefore Morgoth... issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.

Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth.... Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away...; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.

But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all... pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck.... Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.

Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep. Yet the tale of it is remembered still, for Thorondor King of Eaglesbrought the tidings to Gondolin, and to Hithlum afar off. And Morgoth took the body of the Elven-king and broke it, and would cast it to his wolves; but Thorondor came hasting from his eyrie among the peaks of the Crissaegrim, and he stooped upon Morgoth and marred his face. The rushing of the wings of Thorondor was like the noise of the winds of Manwë, and he seized the body in his mighty talons, and soaring suddenly above the darts of the Orcs he bore the King away. And he laid him upon a mountain-top that looked from the north upon the hidden valley of Gondolin; and Turgon coming built a high cairn over his father. No Orc dared ever after to pass over the mound of Fingolfin or draw nigh his tomb, until the doom of Gondolin was come and treachery was born among his kin. Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made.

Great was the lamentation in Hithlum when the fall of Fingolfin became known....​

​

 

[Jungibaaz]

Of the three major works, which one are you partial to?

For me it has to be The Silmarillion

Tough question. I love them all beyond my ability to describe in a post. Although, the Lord of the Rings is in a league of its own, so much depth, genius and emotion I've seldom seen in any books. LOTR is one story for all ages, through all times and means different things to different people. My favourite parts of the books was the beginning of the Fellowship and the end of the Return of the King, truly beautiful they were.

The Silmarillion I like for entirely different reasons, Tolkien's genius comes out again and again, he has written a book as if it were a Bible of that world, the stories are often no more than a page or two long, the time frame is immeasurable, and the characters number beyond recollection. Yet somehow he makes this elaborate mythology work and flow, and it is totally believable. Often with sci fi and other genres, you watch or read something and it occurs to you that it looks not believable and not necessary, I can't say that for the Silmarillion, it's a web of stories and lore like no other, the depth is something to be marvelled at.

My favourite parts of the Silmarillion are the description of Illuvatar and the Ainur in the Ainulindale, the flee of Morgoth and Ungoliant after the destruction of the two trees and how they then fall out. I also like Fingolfin's challenge to Morgoth and his martyrdom. The entirety of Beren and Luthien's story is poetic too.

 

[Spectre]

Tough question. I love them all beyond my ability to describe in a post. Although, the Lord of the Rings is in a league of its own, so much depth, genius and emotion I've seldom seen in any books. LOTR is one story for all ages, through all times and means different things to different people. My favourite parts of the books was the beginning of the Fellowship and the end of the Return of the King, truly beautiful they were.

The Silmarillion I like for entirely different reasons, Tolkien's genius comes out again and again, he has written a book as if it were a Bible of that world, the stories are often no more than a page or two long, the time frame is immeasurable, and the characters number beyond recollection. Yet somehow he makes this elaborate mythology work and flow, and it is totally believable. Often with sci fi and other genres, you watch or read something and it occurs to you that it looks not believable and not necessary, I can't say that for the Silmarillion, it's a web of stories and lore like no other, the depth is something to be marvelled at.

My favourite parts of the Silmarillion are the description of Illuvatar and the Ainur in the Ainulindale, the flee of Morgoth and Ungoliant after the destruction of the too trees and how they then fall out. I also like Fingolfin's challenge to Morgoth and his martyrdom. The entirety of Beren and Luthien's story is poetic too.

I couldn't agree more.

The Tolkein's works are the greatest novels I've ever read and I continue to read books in the hope that something, anything will approach it greatness. His love for his mythical world emanates from every word.

I am not sure if you have deeply explored the sff genre beyond Tolkein - there are some very good books different in style and tone but still evoke the the feeling of awe and wonder. Would love to pass on recommendations if you are interested.

 

[Jungibaaz]

I couldn't agree more.

The Tolkein's works are the greatest novels I've ever read and I continue to read books in the hope that something, anything will approach it greatness. His love for his mythical world emanates from every word.

I am not sure if you have deeply explored the sff genre beyond Tolkein - but there some very good books different in style and tone and evoke the the feeling of awe and wonder. Would love to pass on recommendations if you are interested.

I am also a big sci fi fan, but, not quite on Tolkien proportions. In fact, I had a sci fi thread like this one here. I'd gladly take any recommendations you have.

Only to be watched in HD, epic.

 

[Spectre]

I am also a big sci fi fan, but, not quite on Tolkien proportions. In fact, I had a sci fi thread like this one here. I'd gladly take any recommendations you have.

Only to be watched in HD, epic.

Left recommendations in aforementioned thread.

 

[Darmashkian]

My favourite of all the works of Tolkien is without doubt the Silmarillion!!

The Oath of Feanoro:-

The words of his oath:-

 

[Jungibaaz]

My favourite of all the works of Tolkien is without doubt the Silmarillion!!

The Oath of Feanoro:-

The words of his oath:-

That oath was so powerful and yet so treacherous. Powerful enough that it stirred the Noldor into a frenzy, and they in that frenzy saved Beleriand from Morgoth's reach, and it was the same oath and Mandos' doom that ruined the land destroyed any possibility of resistance.

In response to that oath and their actions, Mandos said:

'Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they ever be for ever.

'Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.'
The Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor

It's really easy to connect parts of this doom to actual events of the first age.

 

[Darmashkian]

That oath was so powerful and yet so treacherous. Powerful enough that it stirred the Noldor into a frenzy, and they in that frenzy saved Beleriand from Morgoth's reach, and it was the same oath and Mandos' doom that ruined the land destroyed any possibility of resistance.

In response to that oath and their actions, Mandos said:



It's really easy to connect parts of this doom to actual events of the first age.

Actually Mandos said that after the massacre of Alqualonde in which the Noldori(or atleast the first group) under Feanoro attacked the Teleri while trying to steal their ships away & not after the oath which was probably taken in Tirion.

& yep the oath was powerful, very powerful & dangerous! It incited an already angry populace furious at the death of their king even more.

The less said about the 2nd & 3rd kinslayings the better.
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But let us not forget that had Feanoro never taken that oath & incited the Noldori to leave Valinor, then they would have never come to Beleriand. & had they not come, the Sindar,Nandor,the Dwarves & the Edain would have all perhaps fallen to the darkness & treachery of Morgoth(The enemy).

Eárendil would never have to come to Valinor with his wife Elwing(After she abandoned her children for the Silmaril) to plead for the help of the Valar, cause both of them would perhaps never exist in the first place.

Had that not happened, Morgoth would not have been defeated the rise & fall of Numenor too would not happen, the Last Alliance would never have been formed & The Enemy(Sauron) would never have been defeated once & for all at the end of the third age.,

Perhaps the Oath of Feanoro went bad for the Noldor, but it turned out to be good for the inhabitants of the Middle Earth in the long.
Also I recall that the arrival of either Eárendil with Elwing or Tuor with Idril to Valinor was part of the song of Arda? Who knows perhaps this too was part of Illuvatar's plan?

 

[Jungibaaz]

Actually Mandos said that after the massacre of Alqualonde in which the Noldori(or atleast the first group) under Feanoro attacked the Teleri while trying to steal their ships away & not after the oath which was probably taken in Tirion.

No I meant, that the oath and kinslaying were connected, as were they both to the doom of Mandos.
The way it happened was, the oath came first, and oath drove the Noldor under Feanor to commit to the Kinslaying at Alqualonde, and for this, and the accursed oath, as they were leaving Aman and on the eve of entering the Hither lands, Mandos spoke his doom both for the kinslaying and for the oath that drove it.

I think it's clear, Mandos' words describe how the sons of Feanor would go about bringing further ruin upon all in Beleriand.

But let us not forget that had Feanoro never taken that oath & incited the Noldori to leave Valinor, then they would have never come to Beleriand. & had they not come, the Sindar,Nandor,the Dwarves & the Edain would have all perhaps fallen to the darkness & treachery of Morgoth(The enemy).

Eárendil would never have to come to Valinor with his wife Elwing(After she abandoned her children for the Silmaril) to plead for the help of the Valar, cause both of them would perhaps never exist in the first place.

Had that not happened, Morgoth would not have been defeated the rise & fall of Numenor too would not happen, the Last Alliance would never have been formed & The Enemy(Sauron) would never have been defeated once & for all at the end of the third age.,

Perhaps the Oath of Feanoro went bad for the Noldor, but it turned out to be good for the inhabitants of the Middle Earth in the long.
Also I recall that the arrival of either Eárendil with Elwing or Tuor with Idril to Valinor was part of the song of Arda? Who knows perhaps this too was part of Illuvatar's plan?

I agree that Doriath and the Sindar elves, the Dwarves of Narog and Belegost, and most likely ALL of the Edain would've fallen to Morgoth long before had it not have been for the Noldor. They were mighty and empowered by the light of the two trees, and nearly destroyed all of Morgoth's might, save that in their wrath they were driven back only by the might of Thangorodrim and the Balrogs.

But, as with the doom of the Noldor, all they built came to utter ruin, first the Northern watches of Finrod and Fingolfin, the march of Maedhros, all destroyed in the Dagor Bragollach, and then again in the Nirnaeth Arnoidead, and eventually in the fall of Gondolin.

It is hard to say if the end result would have been better or worse without the Noldor.
Certainly it seems the Valar saw no good to come of it, the voyage of Earendil seemed rather like a fix to the problem.

And you're right, in the end, even the work of Melkor, and the doom of Noldor is all part of the plans of Eru.

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: ‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’

 

[Jaanbaz]

Which is the first book to start? I've never read any of the books nor do I fully understand the story line behind it. I have seen first of the 2 hobbit movies that's it. Some one recommend where to start please.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Which is the first book to start? I've never read any of the books nor do I fully understand the story line behind it. I have seen first of the 2 hobbit movies that's it. Some one recommend where to start please.

Watch the Lord of the Rings film series, the extended versions. And then the Hobbit series if you feel like it.
The books to start with are the Lord of the Rings (3 volumes, all one story), and The Hobbit, which is more of a children's book, but significantly shorter.

But definitely watch LOTR films extended version and then report back here for further instruction.