Lockheed Martin signs pact with Tata to make F-16 planes in India

[Sloth 22]

is this sarcasm? if India could turn raw materials into SU30MKI's engine, Kaveri would have been a piece of cake.

No Sarcasm , except the Titanium forgings, everything in Su30MKI starts from an Indian mine.Even the AL31FP.

 

[ranadd]

is this sarcasm? if India could turn raw materials into SU30MKI's engine, Kaveri would have been a piece of cake.

Kinda surprised that you dont know what Indian MIC is capable of.

Perhaps, you should not be posting here then?

Not only splitting but they should be sold to Indian private players. The money that government receives from that sale should go into capital budget of the armed forces.

That would be a win-win.

Lets not go that far. I am not disagreeing with you completely. But baby steps. But privatizing it, I agree.

And no. The revenue should not be going to CAPEX of army. India is a shit hole. Still.

There are like millions of things that needs to be done before Armed expenditure is first prio. India already has proven deterrence. Any adventure will be answered with more than they expect. Not MAD. But city leveling is implied.

 

[egodoc222]

We are 10 years late on this....

Sure we are late....but we are left with no options...only American aerospace companies can deliver at pace and compensate the lost time...
I would think of this deal makes more economic and strategic sense...!

 

[ranadd]

I would think of this deal makes more economic and strategic sense...!

Time will tell this is not one of those deals. I guarantee it. This will destroy LCA and AMCA. And by extension all the L2 and L3 vendors in India.

You can quote this when F35 will fly in Indian jack in 10 years. maybe even 5. That's all this F16 shit is.

 

[nang2]

No Sarcasm , except the Titanium forgings, everything in Su30MKI starts from an Indian mine.Even the AL31FP.

Kinda surprised that you dont know what Indian MIC is capable of.

I am surprised that neither SU30MKI nor Tejas is flying with Indian engine yet, consider what Indian MIC is capable of.

 

[egodoc222]

Time will tell this is not one of those deals. I guarantee it. This will destroy LCA and AMCA. And by extension all the L2 and L3 vendors in India.

You can quote this when F35 will fly in Indian jack in 10 years. maybe even 5. That's all this F16 shit is.

nothing else can destroy lca more!!
It will go on on its own pace!! Forget it...there won't be any Amca!!
How is f16 sh!t?
It fits perfectly in the role it is intended to play on decommision of mig 21s.

 

[Ryuzaki]

I am surprised that neither SU30MKI nor Tejas is flying with Indian engine yet, consider what Indian MIC is capable of.

in 2019 Tejas will fly with Indian Kaveri engine due to Rafale offset involvement.Future drone projects will also fly with HTFE-25 Indian engine

 

[Nilgiri]

I am surprised that neither SU30MKI nor Tejas is flying with Indian engine yet, consider what Indian MIC is capable of.

That's because you will probably be surprised at what Kaveri engine was trying to achieve performance wise compared to Russian thoroughfare.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Sure we are late....but we are left with no options...only American aerospace companies can deliver at pace and compensate the lost time...
I would think of this deal makes more economic and strategic sense...!

You seems to be totally unaware that the whole idea is not to produce in the USA.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

There are several points to this list.
1. India will be dealing with companies from many nations, regardless if F-16 or Gripen is selected.
2. The technology transfer, Lockheed Martin can provide is limited.
It appears that Lockheed is mainly assembling components they get elsewhere.
3. There are contracts in place where certain companies have the right to produce certain
parts for the F-16 that were signed when different countries purchased the F-16.
This means that it is not neccessarily possible for India to produce parts
even if they have the capability.
4. Other parts contain IP of the current manufacturer, and they are not motivated
to provide ToT to India.
5. With no orders for 5-7 years, they may put them on last time buy,
sometimes because their suppliers obsolete components.

1- India will deal with USA when buying F-16 or Gripen, rest will do as told by the USA since Gripen uses American engines- The main problem for Gripen is American engine-
2- That applies for both Gripen and F-16 no country in the world will sell decades of research to another country-
3- Those companies will be out of business anyway If they don't partner with Indian companies, many of these companies are already partnering on various other projects so that won't be much of a problem- If that is not the case- F-16 won't be selected in first place-
4- No manufacturer will sell IP rights and India honors their concerns-
5- Which why they will have to partner with Indian manufacturers-

I am surprised that neither SU30MKI nor Tejas is flying with Indian engine yet, consider what Indian MIC is capable of.

In initial order 920 or 960 I can't recall the actual number Al-31FP was to be made in India- Then next order was for 1500 Al-31FP around 2011-12-

Russian engine is not the benchmark Indian manufacturers like GTRE is aiming for- For example even their newest Item 117 is on offer for Su-30 upgrades but IAF wants the engine's wet thrust reduced to increase engine life hours- Life hours, MTBO, fuel efficiency, High T/W ratio, Hot start are the benchmark GTRE and other Indian private manufacturers are looking for-

Kaveri is a step in that direction- It is not the goal-

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

1- India will deal with USA when buying F-16 or Gripen, rest will do as told by the USA since Gripen uses American engines- The main problem for Gripen is American engine-
2- That applies for both Gripen and F-16 no country in the world will sell decades of research to another country-
3- Those companies will be out of business anyway If they don't partner with Indian companies, many of these companies are already partnering on various other projects so that won't be much of a problem- If that is not the case- F-16 won't be selected in first place-
4- No manufacturer will sell IP rights and India honors their concerns-
5- Which why they will have to partner with Indian manufacturers-

if India selected the F-16, and wanted to sell to Argentina, then I am pretty sure
you would get zero deliveries of those parts originating in U.K.

Both the F-16 and the Gripen has an American Engine.
Thus this is not a deciding factor.
The US has already approved sales of the engine to India.

A lot of Indians think they only have to deal with the U.S. since the F-16 is 100 %
built using U.S. parts. It has been shown that significant parts are made outside the U.S.
If any parts will have to be redesigned due to obsolent subcomponents, then India
will have to deal with that foreign manufacturer.
The U.S. will not involve itself discussing what India needs to pay for the redesign.
These companies have no problem working with India, but they will only entertain
profitable business, and as components are getting old, they may face price increases
by their vendors, to maintain production.

Thus the fact that Gripen gets components from several vendors is not the disadvantage
as some present it. The situation is the same for the F-16.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

if India selected the F-16, and wanted to sell to Argentina, then I am pretty sure
you would get zero deliveries of those parts originating in U.K.

Both the F-16 and the Gripen has an American Engine.
Thus this is not a deciding factor.
The US has already approved sales of the engine to India.

A lot of Indians think they only have to deal with the U.S. since the F-16 is 100 %
built using U.S. parts. It has been shown that significant parts are made outside the U.S.
If any parts will have to be redesigned due to obsolent subcomponents, then India
will have to deal with that foreign manufacturer.
The U.S. will not involve itself discussing what India needs to pay for the redesign.

Thus the fact that Gripen gets components from several vendors is not the disadvantage
as some present it. The situation is the same for the F-16.

The idea of domestic partner is to avoid such circumstances- and talking of foreign military sale, I doubt anything would be done without OEM and US approvals-

US has always been arm twisting India for buying their products, you can be sure of strong lobbying by LM to GE and other suppliers of Gripen based in US and from US government itself- I know SAAB did a lot of lobbying, Swedish PM even called Modi at midnight here just two days ago-

Both planes have foreign suppliers- Gripen has more than F-16 since engine and supporting parts make most of the supplies- Yes Indian manufacturers will deal with each supplier separately as is being done in Rafale's case-

Gripen's problem comes with American engine- Other wise due to Its size Gripen was better suited to fit in existing Mig21 infrastructure- India operated 700+ Mig21s and most of the hangers, shelters have been made according to that size- Lots of money will go into changing that for F-16- Rafale will fit well in Mig29 and M2K infrastructure but changes will have to be made for F-16-

 

[egodoc222]

You seems to be totally unaware that the whole idea is not to produce in the USA.

You mis understood...I was talking about the American companies setting up their industries in India....only they have the ability to do it in time bound manner!

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

The idea of domestic partner is to avoid such circumstances- and talking of foreign military sale, I doubt anything would be done without OEM and US approvals-

US has always been arm twisting India for buying their products, you can be sure of strong lobbying by LM to GE and other suppliers of Gripen based in US and from US government itself- I know SAAB did a lot of lobbying, Swedish PM even called Modi at midnight here just two days ago-

Both planes have foreign suppliers- Gripen has more than F-16 since engine and supporting parts make most of the supplies- Yes Indian manufacturers will deal with each supplier separately as is being done in Rafale's case-

Gripen's problem comes with American engine- Other wise due to Its size Gripen was better suited to fit in existing Mig21 infrastructure- India operated 700+ Mig21s and most of the hangers, shelters have been made according to that size- Lots of money will go into changing that for F-16- Rafale will fit well in Mig29 and M2K infrastructure but changes will have to be made for F-16-

I would say the use of the GE F-414 is an advantage for Gripen.
It is the same engine that India is planning to use for LCA Mk II and some other future aircraft.
It will simplify logistics.

If/When India builds their own engine, a smart design would be able to replace the F-414
and thus India could build Gripen with an Indian engine.

The only disadvantage with the F-414 is that the US can stop selling it.
After an Indian engine is available, the US loses that leverage, but can block
other American parts if F-16 is selected.

India is more dependant on the US mood with F-16s.

You mis understood...I was talking about the American companies setting up their industries in India....only they have the ability to do it in time bound manner!

That is your opinion, which has no relation to reality.
I bet you have nothing to backup that statement except hot air.

SAAB is in the process to setup localized production in Brazil.
They will be able to do the same for India.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

I would say the use of the GE F-414 is an advantage for Gripen.
It is the same engine that India is planning to use for LCA Mk II and some other future aircraft.
It will simplify logistics.

If/When India builds their own engine, a smart design would be able to replace the F-414
and thus India could build Gripen with an Indian engine.

The only disadvantage with the F-414 is that the US can stop selling it.
After an Indian engine is available, the US loses that leverage, but can block
other American parts if F-16 is selected.

India is more dependant on the US mood with F-16s.

The main objective is to make a good Hot start engine with high T/W ratio in India and use it in good numbers on all Indian planes-

Kaveri and Safran are collaborating with each other to make a decent engine that could power LCA mk1, mk1a which is uses GE404- Rafale if manufactured in India may use Kaveri-Safran Engine-

India has been lobbying for new variant of F414 know how and make in India- with ToT as much possible- This was much before any one in their wildest of dreams thought about a new tender on single engine- F-16 seems to be the American demand for that to happen-

We will only know in 4-5 year when the picture becomes clearer- But the main focus area off late has been turbofan engines, Be It France, USA, Russia and even Rolls Royce recently came for partnership- the 5th generation deal with Russia is stuck due to Engine issues- India wants next Gen-Engine with Make in India and India is ready to invest in development, But Russian side has been reluctant to allow full ToT-