Lockheed Martin CEO Phil Shaw :Talks with the INDIAN NAVY for AEGIS air-to-air defence system

[SvenSvensonov]

What will BSF do with Hellfire??BSF doesn't operate any attack helos or UCAVs.

There's a ground launched version too.

• Will such system like Aegis and SM(X) missiles transfer will be agreeable/approved by Senate.

Do you guys know (not specifically you Parikrama, but all people commenting on this thread) what Aegis is? It isn't the battle management software, ABM or BMD (or ASU and ASW) alone. It's a package that includes hardware like radars, software like Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense, and weapon systems like MK41 VLS:

...

Here, I wrote this for another person who mistook the SPY-1 as Aegis, but it's applicable on this thread too as I feel too many people will (and have already begun to) misrepresent what Aegis actually is:

Aegis isn't the radar specifically, though the SPY-1 series is part of the Aegis system. Rather, Aegis is an integrated combat system comprised of multiple interlinked parts including the Aegis Command System:

The Aegis Weapon System is a combination of ship-borne and friendly munitions and launchers, which are localized into Aegis components including the Aegis Anti-Aircraft Warfare sub-section:

On this Ticonderoga Class Cruiser we have two Mk41 VLS systems, Twin quad-barrel RGM-84 launchers, two Mk45 5 inch guns, twin Mk38 25mm cannons, twin Mk32 tri-barrel torpedo launchers, twin Phalanx CWIS and a myriad of .50 heavy machine guns. The AAW component handles much of the MK41's payloads, while the ASW component handles a few others like the torpedoes and ASROC:

All of these comprise the Weapon System component for Aegis, as does friendly munitions coopted by the Aegis Weapon System for vectoring or routing. These could be surface launched cruise missiles, air launched PGMs or friendly SAMs fired by other ships in the fleet, but cued through another ship's Aegis system.

While the SPY-1 series radars are an integral part of Aegis:

They aren't the only sensor and are joined in the Aegis Combat System by fire control radars and illumniators like the Mk99 FCS and Mk62 SPG:

Additionally, Aegis' scope can be expanded with software and hardware upgrades including the Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense suite, which has been incorporated into a fair number of Arleigh Burke Class Destroyers and Ticonderoga Class Cruisers. The Aegis BMD system utilizes a number of the systems already found within the Aegis Combat System including the mk62 illuminators for the SM-6 and SM-2 missiles when used in a BMD capability.

Using Aegis for initial fire control operations, SM-6 can then be linked to other assets such as additional Aegis equipped ships within a fleet or command and control aircraft like the E-2D for Over-the-Horizon and even over-land engagements - this is called "Cooperative Engagement Capability:"

The Aegis BDM capability has allowed Aegis equipped ships to be able to engages ballistic missiles of all classes and even satellites utilizing the SM-3 missile with only software updates:

Aegis is more then just a radar. It's an integrated combat system.

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So is India ready or willing to go with Aegis? Will it buy the radars and illuminators needed to go along with the weapons systems? What baseline of software? ABM too? What weapons? Is the IN willing to junk the Barak-8 in favor of SM-2? Is the US going to integrate Barak-8 or Brahmos into its Aegis control software? Is the IN really interested in overhauling its ships to fit American combat management systems?

Of course not. Not on any point. But that's not my point either. My point is that too few people understand what Aegis is. It's not just a software package, it's an integrated combat management system that includes hardware and software and supporting systems.

There are only a very few combat systems which can compete with Aegis and getting hands on this for the existing and new ships will be a major development and a significant improvement for Indian navy.

And one hell of any overhaul when they already have their own radars, battle management software, launching system, weapon, etc.

For new ships, maybe. For existing ships? Years long refit.

 

[Mustang06]

Hellfire for BSF?? Talk about overkill!

 

[GR!FF!N]

There's a ground launched version too.

Any tube launched version is there??Because BSF doesn't operate similar AAV as well.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Any tube launched version is there??Because BSF doesn't operate similar AAV as well.

There is a man portable ground launcher.

And a launcher that fits onto just about any vehicle.

Nothing tubed like an AT4, no. But the vehicle mounted launcher can be mounted onto nearly anything.

 

[anant_s]

It's a package that includes hardware like radars, software like Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense, and weapon systems

Absolutely Sir!
It is understood that like other BMD systems, AEGIS too is a combination of several hard and software, which allows its to work autonomously. I've few queries here:
1. India is opting for ELTA MF-STAR AESA for its ACs and destroyers and it looks future boats too will feature this radar. My doubt here is
a. Does ship based BMD make use of this radar or they have their own radars?
b. If ship's BMD uses that radar, will it be possible to configure AEGIS with MF STAR.

2. What is performance of AEGIS vis a vis BARAK systems which as @PARIKRAMA pointed out is designed against fast missiles like Brahmos or more specifically Chinese threats such as YJ 12?

 

[Grevion]

Why would we go for Aegis system when we already have MF-STAR?
The navy should stick with one Missile defense system for its fleet.

 

[zebra7]

Why would we go for Aegis system when we already have MF-STAR?
The navy should stick with one Missile defense system for its fleet.

1 First point Aegis is not any missile or any weapon, rather a system, a Battle Management suite and was offered to Indian Navy several years back also, which Indian Navy have rejected, and goes for its own Indegenous Battle Management solution. U.S and LM point is, with the Aegis system, Indian Navy will have better coordination with the friendly nations sorry in short NATO.

2. Unlike other countries, India won't go for the Aegis system, because they have their own network, dedicated Indian Navy satellite, Communication Algorithm, Barak SAM. So its just an offer, not a deal ----- DID LM, proposed India, just before the first flight of the LCA prototype to stop its development.

3. For Hellfire, BSF have plan for its own Hellicopters and UAVs aka BSF aviation wings.

 

[GR!FF!N]

There is a man portable ground launcher.

And a launcher that fits onto just about any vehicle.

Nothing tubed like an AT4, no. But the vehicle mounted launcher can be mounted onto nearly anything.

Still,I doubt BSF will need anything more than Karl Gustav.Army/Airforce might buy it for Helos/Drones,but agencies like CRPF and BSF are more than happy with Karl Gustav.

 

[Perpendicular]

@SvenSvensonov What do you understand about the concept of "kill chain". Is AEGIS is the kill chain or part of it. Thanks

“Some countries might buy them just to impress their neighbors, but their combat effectiveness would be negligible unless the country also invested in the needed detection, data processing, and communications systems".

 

[-xXx-]

Aegis is a proven potent system``and MF-STAR+ Barak-8 and Brahmos = junk
not too late to dump that junk for the real stuff

None of them is chinese so can't be classified as junk.

 

[kaykay]

Aegis is a proven potent system``and MF-STAR+ Barak-8 and Brahmos = junk
not too late to dump that junk for the real stuff

well Junk is more of a Chinese forte. MF-STAR, Phalcon and Green pine like systems have their own reputations so a butthurt calling them junk is laughable at best.

 

[Grevion]

1 First point Aegis is not any missile or any weapon, rather a system, a Battle Management suite and was offered to Indian Navy several years back also, which Indian Navy have rejected, and goes for its own Indegenous Battle Management solution. U.S and LM point is, with the Aegis system, Indian Navy will have better coordination with the friendly nations sorry in short NATO.

2. Unlike other countries, India won't go for the Aegis system, because they have their own network, dedicated Indian Navy satellite, Communication Algorithm, Barak SAM. So its just an offer, not a deal ----- DID LM, proposed India, just before the first flight of the LCA prototype to stop its development.

3. For Hellfire, BSF have plan for its own Hellicopters and UAVs aka BSF aviation wings.

Exactly and it is better for us to keep the strategic partnership limited with France, Russia and Israel. We are getting advance tech. and help from them already.
If anything buy c 130s and attack helicopters from them.

 

[dadeechi]

I am not an expert in Modern Technologies I am more attracted towards classic weapons like Bows , Swords and Shields .

Suppose we buy some new weapon from west . Can we reverse engineer it to make in India ?

NO

 

[SvenSvensonov]

b. If ship's BMD uses that radar, will it be possible to configure AEGIS with MF STAR.

This has never been done, so a very big maybe.

Aegis Combat System is used by several US allies, all of them use a variation of the SPY-1. SPY-1D on Japan's Kongo:

And Australia's Hobart:

Spain, South Korea and the US also use Aegis and all use the SPY-1D. Only Norway uses a smaller radar with its Aegis, but it's a variation of SPY-1 that is optimized for frigates. This being SPY-1F:

Notice the illuminators on each ship? It's not just the radar that they all share in common.

To get Aegis to work with MF STAR, a whole new set of code would need to be written as Aegis is design to work with a very specific set of systems and is not plug-and-play. You don't pick the parts of Aegis you want. The radars, fire control systems, illuminators, software, it's all or nothing.

SPY-1, MK99 fire control system, MK41 VLS, AN/SPG-62, Aegis works with a specific set of systems and has never been integrated into anything else. Will it work with MF STAR? I'm sure it could be made to, but you'd be opening up a lot to us, such as source codes and the process of writing new software, testing and updating baselines and integrating it into an IN ship would take years, if not a decade or so.

If you want Aegis, you're building from the ground up using systems proven to work with Aegis.

@SvenSvensonov What do you understand about the concept of "kill chain". Is AEGIS is the kill chain or part of it. Thanks.

There is no unified "Kill Chain" concept and each military follows a different set of rules - in the US we use a version of AirSea Battle and Cooperative Engagement Capability - but in general the kill chain looks a bit like this:

• Find: Locate the target.

• Fix: Fix their location; or make it difficult for them to move.

• Track: Monitor their movement.

• Target: Select an appropriate weapon or asset to use on the target to create desired effects.

• Engage: Apply the weapon to the target.

• Assess: Evaluate effects of the attack, including any intelligence gathered at the location.

Aegis can locate targets using its Spy-1 radar. It can't "fix" the target, but it can hamper their movements by enforcing a no-go zone of control with long-range missiles like SM-2 and SM-6 or with sea denial weapons like VL-ASROC. It can, both passively and actively monitor the movements of hostiles, again, using the radars and axillary supporting systems. It's capable of tracking hundreds of targets and engaging an equal number near instantaneously (I explained the discrepancy between the list engagement number of one and the realized engagement number here). And it can, or one of its supporting systems such as a LAMPS can assess the effect of attacks.

Aegis also extends the kill chain of supporting assets such air craft, surface ships, coastal AShMs or submarines by integrating their kill chain - intelligence, tracking, attack - into a network. We call this cooperative engagement capability, where the who of a fleet and its supporting assets are communicating, sharing data, and coordinating actions as a singular unit, rather then as individual parts.

With CEC an Arleigh Burke class destroyer can launch an SM-6:

An orbiting E-2D will then pick up the missile, and using its own kill chain for which it was tracking an item of interest, can vector the missile towards that point of interest:

Even as the missile exits the zone of control of the Burke, so long as the rely, the E-2D remains active, the missile can be controlled or monitored by either the Burke or E-2D as they're active as a single integrated unit under CEC and constantly communicate.

Continuing on with the missile's flight path, though it's exited the Burke's zone of control, our E-2D is still passing info the missile (and the Burke) and the end result is this:

That's an SM-6 engaging a supersonic target overland, an area where the Burke's SPY-1D would be limited in coverage. Thanks to the unified kill chain that is Cooperative Engagement Capability, we can extend the effective use range of our weapons by linking other assets, like submarines, satellites of AEW&C aircraft into the chain.

2. What is performance of AEGIS vis a vis BARAK systems which as @PARIKRAMA pointed out is designed against fast missiles like Brahmos or more specifically Chinese threats such as YJ 12?

Barak-8 has half the range of the missiles Aegis controls (and even less when paired against SM-3. Keep in mind Aegis integrated sub-surface, surface and air and orbital combat management into a single combat system. It's not just surface-to-air), so it's able to hit out at a longer range then even Barak-8ER.

As for how it measures up to fast missiles such as Brahmos or YJ12? It works. That's all I'm saying on the subject.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

There is no doubt Aegis is a formidable system and with SM(X) series of ABM/BMD, its a very nice system overall. The only thing I do remember reading is some Senate or congressional discussion on lack of tests versus Anti Shipping missile. Now with honesty, Barak 8 from day 1 was designed against Yakhont/Brahmos capability. That has helped us a lot. Of course Israel supplies us multiple things and 18 Barak8 systems are already ordered for Navy and more will be there for IAF.

Effectively, USA wishes to be part of this extensive setup and get lots of orders and increase its strategic footprint in India.

I do believe atm LM is going out of the way to offer whatever it can to entice us for F16 line in India and later F35 line upgradation story. Today its like this, tomorrow if India does not agree then i expect it may be part of EMALS deal surely.

What we have to understand more is

• Will such system like Aegis and SM(X) missiles transfer will be agreeable/approved by Senate.
• With Naval system like that surely i expect Hq9, Hq16 and many more things to be transferred to our neighbours .. So will then there would be some land based system as well or will we rely just on S400/MRSAM to do bulk of the work?
• What about foundation agreements? Wont we need to sign all to be in line with USA rules..
• In case we use the Aegis system where we will use it? - I see scope in Project 18 - May be a DDG..
• Should we bargain for Aegis or should we bargain for Jet powered drones from General Atomics. DM MP is more interested for Jet powered UCAVs over such systems.
• Why not opt for transport fleet MII like C130 XJ under MII? After all that need is far more important...
• What will be the hidden strings in all this? We have to seek and look at details more carefully..

If everything is fine then yes i believe use Aegis system in Project 18 DDG in 4+3 =7 numbers. May be utilise joint help to increase the firepower of the ship and design it a lot better. With that we can make a formidable combination surely of multiple SAM systems.

Imagine a CBG with 1 ship carrying Barak8 and another carrying Aegis system. Now that could be a solid multilayer multitier ABM/BMD. It can be a reality soon..

Wasnt there an news on how an Su34 bomber with an Jammer blinded the Aegis in the Mediterranean and how the US sailors were demotivated?
So if Russians can disable the Aegis, maybe we can too, if we buy that tech ftom them. Honestly, Aegis is an overkill in Indian Ocean Realm where MF Star with Barak has already tilted the scales to a very large extent.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/11/13/aegis-fail-in-black-sea-ruskies-burn-down-uss-donald-duck/