LoC flare up: August 2013

[Huda]

Dude.. You are really being naive here.. Just like you want to believe what your army says, we believe what our Army does.. We are enemy nations and attach no value to the words of each others' armies.. Why try to convince each other about opposite beliefs..?



Dude.. as I said, you should read beyond the headlines too. You will sound less naive..

. From the same article...

I believe what our beloved army says because they are not like your army which do something and say something else ..

 

[Areesh]

One big difference. ISPR has admitted to its lies. and the fact that they lied on purpose and not by mistake. So has your COAS of that time. And that is the reason we do not believe in your ISPR...

Your believing or not believing doesn't matter because you don't have any news to contradict it. And since there is news on the internet that IA is hiding some news about Kargil war, then we have every reason to believe that IA is trying to hide its casualties. That's what we have heard from PA too here in Pakistan. So it makes all sense to us.

Again, one big different. Fake encounters and rapes etc are individual events perpetrated by individual in the army. The statements of ISPR were official statements made by that formal organization that they themselves later admitted as intentional lies. Hence low credibility of present statements.

IA for not convicting its officers for there crimes as an organization has turned a blind eye towards those crimes. So it doesn't mean IA approves such crimes of officers of IA area always involved in such crimes. Same applies her.

Just like you do not accept the news sources from Balochistan that we accept as reliable, we do not accept your reliable sources of Kashmir..

Well in most cases we reject news based on logic and counter news. I myself have shut up a lot of Baloch sympathizers from India. This didn't happen in this fake encounter case. Even you didn't show up at that thread even though you were luckly unbanned.

 

[chauvunist]

... Read the article mate.. You are making yourself look foolish... Let me help you some more

Okay A few Questions...

The disclosure of information related to casualties suffered by Army during Kargil war and number of militants killed cannot be made public as it would “affect morale of nation”, India’s Central Information Commission has held in an order 14 years after the war

Why is CIC or Army sources officially confirm PIB Figures (because they were never official)...And still denying to release actual information????

Kashiram then preferred an appeal before the CIC contesting the claims of Army.

When the matter reached Sharma, he agreed with the views taken by Army and allowed withholding information.

It means Army is still holding actual Figures and CIC agreed with Army sources to with hold real info...

The information which was sought last year in May was denied by army citing section 8(1)(a) of the RTI Act which allows withholding of information, disclosure of which would prejudicially affect the sovereignty and integrity of India, the security, strategic, scientific or economic interests of the State, relation with foreign State or lead to incitement of an offence.

yet again Your Army denied to give access to actual information,which means PIB info was absolutely Wrong...

 

[Jango]

My folks in Khoiratta say that things are pretty tense, firing can be heard sometimes at night...very heavy firing. They are at a distance from the border, but they say that the folks living there nearer to the border do have some damage to their houses and property from mortars.

 

[Awesome]

Did you forget why LoC flares up? Reality is:

Pakistan tries to push terrorists inside India and that's why so much firing cover ups.

Pak Army always needs to create false war hysteria so that people think PA is the "Hero".They are feeling neglected by democracy which somehow stood for 1 full term for the first time.

So goes the Indian narrative.

Pakistani narrative is that India's always been trying to capture territory little by little, like in Siachen and hence these skirmishes.

 

[karan.1970]

Okay A few Questions...



Why is CIC or Army sources officially confirm PIB Figures (because they were never official)...And still denying to release actual information????




It means Army is still holding actual Figures and CIC agreed with Army sources to with hold real info...



yet again Your Army denied to give access to actual information,which means PIB info was absolutely Wrong...

Dude.. this whole issue is around whether army can be made directly accountable to RTI or not. Not so much so about Kargil because the data from Kargil has already been published by GOI.. You are having a tough time understanding this as unlike Pakistan, in India, the civilian govt has a higher authority than the military PR wing .. Once govt releases any details/figures, that becomes the official stand irrespective of what military says..

 

[karan.1970]

Your believing or not believing doesn't matter because you don't have any news to contradict it. And since there is news on the internet that IA is hiding some news about Kargil war, then we have every reason to believe that IA is trying to hide its casualties. That's what we have heard from PA too here in Pakistan. So it makes all sense to us.

We may not have any news to contradict it, but we for certain have ISPR's past record of self admitted lies.. and hence it makes sense to us..

IA for not convicting its officers for there crimes as an organization has turned a blind eye towards those crimes. So it doesn't mean IA approves such crimes of officers of IA area always involved in such crimes. Same applies her.

Now thats really a stupid argument.. You are equating an organization's reaction to a wrong doing with an intentional wrong doing by an organization. Its like saying that since Justice department of Pakistan does not punish terrorists, the Chief Justice of Pakistan is a terrorist himself..

Well in most cases we reject news based on logic and counter news. I myself have shut up a lot of Baloch sympathizers from India. This didn't happen in this fake encounter case. Even you didn't show up at that thread even though you were luckly unbanned.

Not really.. You (not you individually) reject news based on your preconceived notions..

I dont know which thread you are talking about here..link me up

I believe what our beloved army says because they are not like your army which do something and say something else ..

Blah Blah.. Sometimes if you dont have anything to say, its better to stay silent..

 

[karan.1970]

So goes the Indian narrative.

Pakistani narrative is that India's always been trying to capture territory little by little, like in Siachen and hence these skirmishes.

Where is that narrative ? And I mean from the Govt or PA official releases... Not from defence forums...

 

[Areesh]

We may not have any news to contradict it, but we for certain have ISPR's past record of self admitted lies.. and hence it makes sense to us..

Well since you don't have anything to contradict it as you admitted, then it can't be rejected just because of you believe so.

Now thats really a stupid argument.. You are equating an organization's reaction to a wrong doing with an intentional wrong doing by an organization. Its like saying that since Justice department of Pakistan does not punish terrorists, the Chief Justice of Pakistan is a terrorist himself..

That isn't a stupid argument. If you are ready to reject a PA statement just because of some past incident then it can also be applied to IA also. That IA supports its officers to commit human rights violations in disputed regions like IOK. Or every other officer does the same kind of atrocities.

I dont know which thread you are talking about here..link me up

Link about that fake encounter has already been provided by me. Check it.

 

[chauvunist]

Dude.. this whole issue is around whether army can be made directly accountable to RTI or not. Not so much so about Kargil because the data from Kargil has already been published by GOI.. You are having a tough time understanding this as unlike Pakistan, in India, the civilian govt has a higher authority than the military PR wing .. Once govt releases any details/figures, that becomes the official stand irrespective of what military says..

SO why is Army or CIC officially accepting or denying what is published by PIB...it means Daal mein kuch Kaala hai...

Read the post#228 again...and i hope you will understand it...Don't just rush to Reply for the sake of Reply...

 

[karan.1970]

Well since you don't have anything to contradict it as you admitted, then it can't be rejected just because of you believe so.

Well, when I see Pinocchio's nose growing, whether i have a contradictory news or not, I know he is lying

That isn't a stupid argument. If you are ready to reject a PA statement just because of some past incident then it can also be applied to IA also. That IA supports its officers to commit human rights violations in disputed regions like IOK. Or every other officer does the same kind of atrocities.

You are not able to link the dots.. Sorry.. You can not equate crimes of individuals to formally published lies of an organization. Apples and oranges..

SO why is Army or CIC officially accepting or denying what is published by PIB...it means Daal mein kuch Kaala hai...

Read the post#228 again...and i hope you will understand it...Don't just rush to Reply for the sake of Reply...

Dude.. Read the article slowly, first aloud and then without speaking.. And try to understand it.. Here let me lay it out

1. Govt of India published Kargil casualties way back in 1999-2000
2. Some dude used RTI to ask for the same info from the Army
3. Army refused to avoid setting up a precedence
4. CIC has upheld the refusal

Its not about the Kargil details, but more about the Right to Information act of India and by responding to an RTI application which is asking for details which have already been made public by GOI, Army does not want to set a precedence of being under the ambit of civilian RTI...

 

[Parul]

1. Govt of India published Kargil casualties way back in 1999-2000 .

For this reason only, I had posted Pictures of Kargil War Memorial.

 

[chauvunist]

Well, when I see Pinocchio's nose growing, whether i have a contradictory news or not, I know he is lying




You are not able to link the dots.. Sorry.. You can not equate crimes of individuals to formally published lies of an organization. Apples and oranges..



Dude.. Read the article slowly, first aloud and then without speaking.. And try to understand it.. Here let me lay it out

1. Govt of India published Kargil casualties way back in 1999-2000
2. Some dude used RTI to ask for the same info from the Army
3. Army refused to avoid setting up a precedence
4. CIC has upheld the refusal

Its not about the Kargil details, but more about the Right to Information act of India and by responding to an RTI application which is asking for details which have already been made public by GOI, Army does not want to set a precedence of being under the ambit of civilian RTI...

Same advice to you Read the article with open mind and you will come to the conclusion that the info posted by PIB is neither authentic nor official and Army is refusing to release the actual and factual Information...

P.S...This is my last reply on this topic as the thread is specific for current LoC flare up...So let's agree to disagree..

 

[Awesome]

Where is that narrative ? And I mean from the Govt or PA official releases... Not from defence forums...

Well unlike Indian politicians, Pakistani Jingos have never been in power and keep such assertions to themselves. However the media and analysts of not just Pakistan but the world over acknowledge the Indian hunger for expansionism.

BJP and RSS in general have Akhand Bharat in their official doctrines. This dangerous group has been voted into power twice and according to some, this time it might be the third time. Compared to Pakistan's 0 times the Mullahs ever coming to power.

Reads on Indian expansionism from non-Pakistani sources:

Indian Expansionism

GROWING MENACE OF INDIAN EXPANSIONISM - humanrights.de

Indian Expansionism: Harmful for Peace in South Asia

 

[karan.1970]

Well unlike Indian politicians, Pakistani Jingos have never been in power and keep such assertions to themselves. However the media and analysts of not just Pakistan but the world over acknowledge the Indian hunger for expansionism.

BJP and RSS in general have Akhand Bharat in their official doctrines. This dangerous group has been voted into power twice and according to some, this time it might be the third time. Compared to Pakistan's 0 times the Mullahs ever coming to power.

Reads on Indian expansionism from non-Pakistani sources:

Indian Expansionism

GROWING MENACE OF INDIAN EXPANSIONISM - humanrights.de

Indian Expansionism: Harmful for Peace in South Asia

You did not answer the question. Is there a official Pakistani narrative that corresponds to what you claimed.. ? What you have posted is simply a walk around the park without backing up your claim of what Pakistan's narrative is about India