Limitations of S-400 system

[Safriz]

S-400 is not the silver bullet when it comes to ABM capabilities... Yes it is a lethal SAM, but as ABM it has limitations.

* Target speed above 14 Mach cannot be tracked .

* Target of above 1 square meter can be detected from up to 600 Km. targets less than 1 meter square RCS can only be detected up to 475 Km and closer.

* The maximum range of engagement for an aerodynamic target is 250 KM and for Ballistic targets its 60 Km.
However the Altitude of engagement in both cases is limited to 27 Km as per Manufacturer's website.
Reason being the Missiles need to remain within thick atmosphere to Maneuver . The 250 Km engagement range is only possible if using their longest range 48N6 missile. The 400 Km range 40N6 missile isn't operational yet.

* After the launcher has fired all 4 Missiles, there is a 5 Minute or more Re-Load time.

* S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar and curvature of earth will limit radar detection ..
At sea level the S-400 radar can only detect objects at 28000 meter altitude at full 600 Km detection range.
Anything lower than that altitude will need to be closer for detection.
For example an object flying at 10,000 meter altitude will only be detected at 370 Km range when S-400 is at sea level. Because beyond that distance at that altitude the object will still be hidden behind curvature of earth and invisible to radar.

...............

A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

........................

In ABM scenario. Say for example the Indians have placed their S-400 Radar at a hill top 1000 meters above sea level (Although i am thinking where will be such a place in the planes of Indian Punjab or Rajisthan?)
Pakistan will most probably launch nuclear missiles from the border areas of South Punjab and Balochistan ,from behind the Sulaiman Mountain range. or Koh Suliman.

In that scenario, the Pakistani Ballistic missile will be already 10,000 meter above sea level after launch before any chance of detection by Indian S-400 or any radar.
At that altitude Ballistic missiles are already accelerated to Mach 4+ and continue accelerating. So boost phase shooting down of Pakistani missiles is not even technically possible.

For ballistic missile target engagement after Re-Entry, it depends on may factors. Mainly the speed and size of Re-entry vehicle or the warhead. Modern Ballistic missiles, even those used by Pakistan, shed most of their components before re-entry and the Much smaller warhead enters the atmosphere. For example a Shaheen III warhead is less than 2 meters tall and less than 75 Cm wide, and has a surface area of about 2 to 2.5 Square meters. The Radar Cross section or RCS of this conical shaped warhead will be the section of the warhead facingthe S-400 radar, and actually reflecting Radar energy towards the antenna, and that can even be one fourth of the total surface area , depending on the aspect. Due to small RCS, detection may not be possible at full 600 Km range. Then the speed after apogee increase to Mach 18 , in case of Ababeel, Shaheen-III , both using the same Warhead(s).
S-400 cannot track objects flying above Mach 14.
(Will add more to the thread later)

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Any SAM system is based on transmitting and receiving signal!!! Pak needs to initiate the fight of signals (friend) vs signals (foe)!!!! Jam and deceive them, and you're OK...

 

[Pyara9]

S-400 is not the silver bullet when it comes to ABM capabilities... Yes it is a lethal SAM, but as ABM it has limitations.

* Target speed above 14 Mach cannot be tracked .

* Target of above 1 square meter can be detected from up to 600 Km. targets less than 1 meter square RCS can only be detected up to 475 Km and closer.

* After the launcher has fired all 4 Missiles, there is a 5 Minute or more Re-Load time.

* S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar and curvature of earth will limit radar detection ..
At sea level the S-400 radar can only detect objects at 28000 meter altitude at full 600 Km detection range.
Anything lower than that altitude will need to be closer for detection.
For example an object flying at 10,000 meter altitude will only be detected at 370 Km range when S-400 is at sea level. Because beyond that distance at that altitude the object will still be hidden behind curvature of earth and invisible to radar.

...............

A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

........................

In ABM scenario. Say for example the Indians have placed their S-400 Radar at a hill top 1000 meters above sea level (Although i am thinking where will be such a place in the planes of Indian Punjab or Rajisthan?)
Pakistan will most probably launch nuclear missiles from the border areas of South Punjab and Balochistan ,from behind the Sulaiman Mountain range. or Koh Suliman.

In that scenario, the Pakistani Ballistic missile will be already 10,000 meter above sea level after launch before any chance of detection by Indian S-400 or any radar.
At that altitude Ballistic missiles are already accelerated to Mach 4+ and continue accelerating. So boost phase shooting down of Pakistani missiles is not even technically possible.
(Will add more to the thread later)

Detection range is based on a ground based radar which s-400 uses. I would like to know the engagement range of s-400 which im sure isn't 400km +. Engagement range depends on the missile, detection range on the radar.

 

[Tom M]

Any SAM system is based on transmitting and receiving signal!!! Pak needs to initiate the fight of signals (friend) vs signals (foe)!!!! Jam and deceive them, and you're OK...

Very true, yet easily said than done. LOL

 

[Rajesh Kumar]

S-400 is not the silver bullet when it comes to ABM capabilities... Yes it is a lethal SAM, but as ABM it has limitations.

* Target speed above 14 Mach cannot be tracked .

* Target of above 1 square meter can be detected from up to 600 Km. targets less than 1 meter square RCS can only be detected up to 475 Km and closer.

* After the launcher has fired all 4 Missiles, there is a 5 Minute or more Re-Load time.

* S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar and curvature of earth will limit radar detection ..
At sea level the S-400 radar can only detect objects at 28000 meter altitude at full 600 Km detection range.
Anything lower than that altitude will need to be closer for detection.
For example an object flying at 10,000 meter altitude will only be detected at 370 Km range when S-400 is at sea level. Because beyond that distance at that altitude the object will still be hidden behind curvature of earth and invisible to radar.

...............

A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

........................

In ABM scenario. Say for example the Indians have placed their S-400 Radar at a hill top 1000 meters above sea level (Although i am thinking where will be such a place in the planes of Indian Punjab or Rajisthan?)
Pakistan will most probably launch nuclear missiles from the border areas of South Punjab and Balochistan ,from behind the Sulaiman Mountain range. or Koh Suliman.

In that scenario, the Pakistani Ballistic missile will be already 10,000 meter above sea level after launch before any chance of detection by Indian S-400 or any radar.
At that altitude Ballistic missiles are already accelerated to Mach 4+ and continue accelerating. So boost phase shooting down of Pakistani missiles is not even technically possible.
(Will add more to the thread later)

If Pakistan bought from Russia than than the same S-400 missile be called Universe best defence system with no loophole....

 

[Sugarcane]

If Pakistan bought from Russia than than the same S-400 missile be called Universe best defence system with no loophole....

And Indian would have been pointing out loopholes ... isn't it?

 

[BRAVO_]

S-400 is effective only if the attack is in limited number since each TEL has 4 tubes and one batery of s-400 contain 8 launchers(max 12) each with 4 missiles that mean 32 missile per batery on the other hand If they use the longer range 40N6 which is unique to the S400 each TEL can only carry 2 and that could be use only for high value targets ... keeping in mind the above, hows about attacking with a barrage of decoys and cheap missiles and using the envelope to deliver the actual ....

 

[War Thunder]

S-400 is not the silver bullet when it comes to ABM capabilities... Yes it is a lethal SAM, but as ABM it has limitations.

* Target speed above 14 Mach cannot be tracked .

* Target of above 1 square meter can be detected from up to 600 Km. targets less than 1 meter square RCS can only be detected up to 475 Km and closer.

* After the launcher has fired all 4 Missiles, there is a 5 Minute or more Re-Load time.

* S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar and curvature of earth will limit radar detection ..
At sea level the S-400 radar can only detect objects at 28000 meter altitude at full 600 Km detection range.
Anything lower than that altitude will need to be closer for detection.
For example an object flying at 10,000 meter altitude will only be detected at 370 Km range when S-400 is at sea level. Because beyond that distance at that altitude the object will still be hidden behind curvature of earth and invisible to radar.

...............

A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

........................

In ABM scenario. Say for example the Indians have placed their S-400 Radar at a hill top 1000 meters above sea level (Although i am thinking where will be such a place in the planes of Indian Punjab or Rajisthan?)
Pakistan will most probably launch nuclear missiles from the border areas of South Punjab and Balochistan ,from behind the Sulaiman Mountain range. or Koh Suliman.

In that scenario, the Pakistani Ballistic missile will be already 10,000 meter above sea level after launch before any chance of detection by Indian S-400 or any radar.
At that altitude Ballistic missiles are already accelerated to Mach 4+ and continue accelerating. So boost phase shooting down of Pakistani missiles is not even technically possible.
(Will add more to the thread later)

So much of that depends on the fact that earth is indeed round and not flat lol
I personally "prefer" to believe the Earth being a "realm" instead of a planet or an object, floating through space...

 

[Mrc]

S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar

Over the horizon radars are used to detect large targets like aircraft carrier or a battleship...

I don't think they can b used to pick agile fighters and missiles due to indirect nature of signal and sever degradation in quality subsequent

Chinese ...are employing oth to monitor us fleet and may b a part of kill chain of def 21 d

 

[Lincoln]

S-400 is not the silver bullet when it comes to ABM capabilities... Yes it is a lethal SAM, but as ABM it has limitations.

* Target speed above 14 Mach cannot be tracked .

* Target of above 1 square meter can be detected from up to 600 Km. targets less than 1 meter square RCS can only be detected up to 475 Km and closer.

* The maximum range of engagement for an aerodynamic target is 250 KM and for Ballistic targets its 60 Km.
However the Altitude of engagement in both cases is limited to 27 Km as per Manufacturer's website.
Reason being the Missiles need to remain within thick atmosphere to Maneuver . The 250 Km engagement range is only possible if using their longest range 48N6 missile. The 400 Km range 40N6 missile isn't operational yet.

* After the launcher has fired all 4 Missiles, there is a 5 Minute or more Re-Load time.

* S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar and curvature of earth will limit radar detection ..
At sea level the S-400 radar can only detect objects at 28000 meter altitude at full 600 Km detection range.
Anything lower than that altitude will need to be closer for detection.
For example an object flying at 10,000 meter altitude will only be detected at 370 Km range when S-400 is at sea level. Because beyond that distance at that altitude the object will still be hidden behind curvature of earth and invisible to radar.

...............

A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

........................

In ABM scenario. Say for example the Indians have placed their S-400 Radar at a hill top 1000 meters above sea level (Although i am thinking where will be such a place in the planes of Indian Punjab or Rajisthan?)
Pakistan will most probably launch nuclear missiles from the border areas of South Punjab and Balochistan ,from behind the Sulaiman Mountain range. or Koh Suliman.

In that scenario, the Pakistani Ballistic missile will be already 10,000 meter above sea level after launch before any chance of detection by Indian S-400 or any radar.
At that altitude Ballistic missiles are already accelerated to Mach 4+ and continue accelerating. So boost phase shooting down of Pakistani missiles is not even technically possible.

For ballistic missile target engagement after Re-Entry, it depends on may factors. Mainly the speed and size of Re-entry vehicle or the warhead. Modern Ballistic missiles, even those used by Pakistan, shed most of their components before re-entry and the Much smaller warhead enters the atmosphere. For example a Shaheen III warhead is less than 2 meters tall and less than 75 Cm wide, and has a surface area of about 2 to 2.5 Square meters. The Radar Cross section or RCS of this conical shaped warhead will be the section of the warhead facingthe S-400 radar, and actually reflecting Radar energy towards the antenna, and that can even be one fourth of the total surface area , depending on the aspect. Due to small RCS, detection may not be possible at full 600 Km range. Then the speed after apogee increase to Mach 18 , in case of Ababeel, Shaheen-III , both using the same Warhead(s).
S-400 cannot track objects flying above Mach 14.
(Will add more to the thread later)

Sounds like a Pakistani version of Brahmos is the solution

So much of that depends on the fact that earth is indeed round and not flat lol
I personally "prefer" to believe the Earth being a "realm" instead of a planet or an object, floating through space...

Yeah, and I have been to the moon : )

 

[Tom M]

TRUE, S-400 is limited to only a hand full of countries. And all of them seem to be fools to induct such expensive system will lot of limitations. LOL

 

[Skull and Bones]

In a battlefield, there will multilayered SAM defense systems, the flaw of one system can be taken care by the other.

 

[War Thunder]

TRUE, S-400 is limited to only a hand full of countries. And all of them seem to be fools to induct such expensive system will lot of limitations. LOL

No, it's a system like any other with its own weaknesses and strengths.
But if one was to go by the delusional IQ of indians, each and every missile shot from S-400 is carried around by vishnu himself to strike its target with absolute precision.

P.S: Talk when india has actually got the system, there is a habit of going all bollywood like among indians while the actual acquisition actually happens decades later and by the time its already half obsolete...

 

[Fawadqasim1]

S-400 is not the silver bullet when it comes to ABM capabilities... Yes it is a lethal SAM, but as ABM it has limitations.

* Target speed above 14 Mach cannot be tracked .

* Target of above 1 square meter can be detected from up to 600 Km. targets less than 1 meter square RCS can only be detected up to 475 Km and closer.

* The maximum range of engagement for an aerodynamic target is 250 KM and for Ballistic targets its 60 Km.
However the Altitude of engagement in both cases is limited to 27 Km as per Manufacturer's website.
Reason being the Missiles need to remain within thick atmosphere to Maneuver . The 250 Km engagement range is only possible if using their longest range 48N6 missile. The 400 Km range 40N6 missile isn't operational yet.

* After the launcher has fired all 4 Missiles, there is a 5 Minute or more Re-Load time.

* S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar and curvature of earth will limit radar detection ..
At sea level the S-400 radar can only detect objects at 28000 meter altitude at full 600 Km detection range.
Anything lower than that altitude will need to be closer for detection.
For example an object flying at 10,000 meter altitude will only be detected at 370 Km range when S-400 is at sea level. Because beyond that distance at that altitude the object will still be hidden behind curvature of earth and invisible to radar.

...............

A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

........................

In ABM scenario. Say for example the Indians have placed their S-400 Radar at a hill top 1000 meters above sea level (Although i am thinking where will be such a place in the planes of Indian Punjab or Rajisthan?)
Pakistan will most probably launch nuclear missiles from the border areas of South Punjab and Balochistan ,from behind the Sulaiman Mountain range. or Koh Suliman.

In that scenario, the Pakistani Ballistic missile will be already 10,000 meter above sea level after launch before any chance of detection by Indian S-400 or any radar.
At that altitude Ballistic missiles are already accelerated to Mach 4+ and continue accelerating. So boost phase shooting down of Pakistani missiles is not even technically possible.

For ballistic missile target engagement after Re-Entry, it depends on may factors. Mainly the speed and size of Re-entry vehicle or the warhead. Modern Ballistic missiles, even those used by Pakistan, shed most of their components before re-entry and the Much smaller warhead enters the atmosphere. For example a Shaheen III warhead is less than 2 meters tall and less than 75 Cm wide, and has a surface area of about 2 to 2.5 Square meters. The Radar Cross section or RCS of this conical shaped warhead will be the section of the warhead facingthe S-400 radar, and actually reflecting Radar energy towards the antenna, and that can even be one fourth of the total surface area , depending on the aspect. Due to small RCS, detection may not be possible at full 600 Km range. Then the speed after apogee increase to Mach 18 , in case of Ababeel, Shaheen-III , both using the same Warhead(s).
S-400 cannot track objects flying above Mach 14.
(Will add more to the thread later)

It's not an abm it's primarily a sam

Any one serious about blunting the threat of s400 should read below mentioned thread carefully.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...indias-s-400-abm-system-akash-s-muham.578995/

 

[khail007]

Some years in the past, when Indian acquired Phalcon system from Israel. There were so much hype and it seems that is end and all area is under Indian eyes. Nothing odd happened in the area. Even Phalcon was not able to prevent some incident in related areas.
Now same bragging started after signing S400.
In my opinion, any of such system will not bring India's fear to zero levels and their confidence to optimal level. India could only achieve such levels only by being friendly with her neighbourhood and not by bullying them.
Negotiations and talk is only the way out else Indian shopping spree of billions even trillions will not end their complex of fear.
The on going example is Afghanistan, after 17 years of beating of world's super power equipped with so much sophisticated war machines/systems by the hands of Talibans mostly equipped with AK47 & RPGs; finally the super power able to discover that only the table talk will end the issues of USA.