LHC to hear arguments on petition against holding of Aurat March

[El Sidd]

You don't need any funding to get placards, markers, a speaker, and to walk out of your house.

Will the march last for 126 days?

 

[Lincoln]

Read this article: https://www.dawn.com/news/1469815

Aurat March initiative is giving space and platform to advocates of immorality who perceive all manner of social constructs (Islamic and otherwise) to create a functioning society as instruments of patriarchy. This is an utterly misleading narrative and should be nipped in the bud.

Giving freedom, and their due rights, breaking these bad social norms which try to heavily domesticate women, and control their lifestyle, will result in people who are lewd and immoral.



Does that mean we don't go ahead with removing what is wrong. There will always be good and bad. Considering that the latter will give an individual freedom, and also empower women to lead and bring about a new change in major fields, while the former will not give an individual any freedom, will push 50% of society away from career oriented lives, and allow domestic violence and such issues; the latter is better, don't you think?

The best solution to lewdness is education and instilling a wider purpose which comes from the heart, not which is enforced by the state and feels fake, unreal.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If one of the women come wearing a Hijab or a Burqa, can they be thrown away in Jails for maligning the soft image of the country?

That's actually one of my critiques of Pakistan's so called 'liberal movement' - their derogatory comments about women wearing the Hijab or Burqa. 'feminism' or any movement for equal rights would require that people respect a woman's CHOICE to wear a Hijab or Burqa (or to not wear it). Yet I've seen countless so called Pakistani 'liberals' criticize, insult and attack women wearing the hijab or burqa.

To me Pakistan's liberal movement is like a bunch of kids let loose in a candy store - they have the right general idea, but without guidance or a sense of direction they've just gone rampant and in the process have attacked and undermined the very values they should be fighting for. Attacking women wearing Hijab/Burqa is one (the attacks on PM Imran Khan's wife is an extension of that). Support for a hypocritical Mullah Fazlullah is another and support for a racist movement like the PTM is yet another.

Ask them to at least conditionally criticize things like PTM's racism and they come up with lame arguments like 'PTM's racism is justified because of decades of oppression!' Ask them to detail said 'oppression' and they have nothing but PTM lies and talking points.

 

[Lincoln]

It does exist among the elite and upper classes of society and gradually will trickle down to the lower classes thats what happens

I am yet to see a sizeable population support LGBT rights. It does not exist.

 

[LeGenD]

1. Wage gaps.
2. Societal norms which don't allow, or pressurize women, to not be career oriented despite what she wants.
3. The idea in society that women are property of men; husband should control her wife; stuff like marital rape is normalized.
4. Domestic violence is very wide spread. Specially in lower strata of society.
5. The idea that women are sexual objects, that they must be covered from head to toe or locked away in homes, because otherwise being the sexual objects they are, they may lure the opposite gender.
6. Women are not empowered, they are nurtured and also natured to be ready for a domestic life. Roles of leadership, science and such are not considered for them.

Need more?



You don't need any funding to get placards, markers, a speaker, and to walk out of your house.

1. Provide evidence. Professional organizations do not conform to wage gaps.

2. This is not a societal norm. Many women in Pakistan are working women. Your perception is FLAWED.

3. Misleading views galore. Nothing wrong with being an expressive but obedient partner (this is important for any relationship to work). Martial Rape philosophy is FLAWED (Marriage = implied consent by default); Marital Abuse is more appropriate term.

4. Domestic violence is a GLOBAL ISSUE.

5. Feminism is objectifying women. Yes, women have sexual appeal (biology) or you are an asexual being? Come again.

6. Bullshit.

 

[Lincoln]

That's actually one of my critiques of Pakistan's so called 'liberal movement' - their derogatory comments about women wearing the Hijab or Burqa. 'feminism' or any movement for equal rights would require that people respect a woman's CHOICE to wear a Hijab or Burqa (or to not wear it). Yet I've seen countless so called Pakistani 'liberals' criticize, insult and attack women wearing the hijab or burqa.

To me Pakistan's liberal movement is like a bunch of kids let loose in a candy store - they have the right general idea, but without guidance or a sense of direction they've just gone rampant and in the process have attacked and undermined the very values they should be fighting for. Attacking women wearing Hijab/Burqa is one (the attacks on PM Imran Khan's wife is an extension of that). Support for a hypocritical Mullah Fazlullah is another and support for a racist movement like the PTM is yet another.

Ask them to at least conditionally criticize things like PTM's racism and they come up with lame arguments like 'PTM's racism is justified because of decades of oppression!' Ask them to detail said 'oppression' and they have nothing but PTM lies and talking points.

Rightly said. This is an indeed an issue. This is why I think Government should take the initiative to form a joint movement, give a direction and make visible changes.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

I am yet to see a sizeable population support LGBT rights. It does not exist.

Are u sure these liberal women at Aurat March don't support LGBT Rights?

 

[El Sidd]

That's actually one of my critiques of Pakistan's so called 'liberal movement' - their derogatory comments about women wearing the Hijab or Burqa. 'feminism' or any movement for equal rights would require that people respect a woman's CHOICE to wear a Hijab or Burqa (or to not wear it). Yet I've seen countless so called Pakistani 'liberals' criticize, insult and attack women wearing the hijab or burqa.

To me Pakistan's liberal movement is like a bunch of kids let loose in a candy store - they have the right general idea, but without guidance or a sense of direction they've just gone rampant and in the process have attacked and undermined the very values they should be fighting for. Attacking women wearing Hijab/Burqa is one (the attacks on PM Imran Khan's wife is an extension of that). Support for a hypocritical Mullah Fazlullah is another and support for a racist movement like the PTM is yet another.

Ask them to at least conditionally criticize things like PTM's racism and they come up with lame arguments like 'PTM's racism is justified because of decades of oppression!' Ask them to detail said 'oppression' and they have nothing but PTM lies and talking points.

Dude just explain it to me how i am supposed to tell a woman what to do without setting off the oppression alarm?

There is no cure to this. That is why i said they are Dajjalic creatures of hysteria and doom.

Are u sure these liberal women at Aurat March don't support LGBT Rights?

Who will ask PEMRA to stop LGBT themed drama serials as positioned by Indira Gandhi to be broadcast-ed in Pakistan?

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Societal norms which don't allow, or pressurize women, to not be career oriented despite what she wants.

This is not a world of what she wants. Her wish would be appreciated if its not going against Shariah

The idea in society that women are property of men; husband should control her wife; stuff like marital rape is normalized.

Not meaning control but men are maintainers and protecters of Women. That what Islam says. Nothing like property

The idea that women are sexual objects, that they must be covered from head to toe or locked away in homes, because otherwise being the sexual objects they are,

Its actually the liberals who consider women like sexual objects. Tell me honestly why would u need a beautiful woman in advertise of Aluminium or beautiful Girls in ads of Telecom Companies. Pardah is there in Shariah and its need to abide by. This is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan

 

[LeGenD]

Giving freedom, and their due rights, breaking these bad social norms which try to heavily domesticate women, and control their lifestyle, will result in people who are lewd and immoral.



Does that mean we don't go ahead with removing what is wrong. There will always be good and bad. Considering that the latter will give an individual freedom, and also empower women to lead and bring about a new change in major fields, while the former will not give an individual any freedom, will push 50% of society away from career oriented lives, and allow domestic violence and such issues; the latter is better, don't you think?

The best solution to lewdness is education and instilling a wider purpose which comes from the heart, not which is enforced by the state and feels fake, unreal.

Recall how Marxist-Feminist Sexual Revolution transformed Western societies into beacons of immortality over time since the 1960s? I am one of the advocates of Freedom of Expression in this forum but my take is that there is a need to draw a line in this matter. Societal construct is a sensitive theme, particularly for people who identify themselves as Muslims and want their children to grow up in an environment which facilitate Islamic teachings and not social degeneracy.

Good and Bad co-exist; this is why REGULATION is necessary to control irrational set-of-behaviors and expressions. There will be chaos in the streets and public expressions otherwise, and the society will become dysfunctional consequently.

Have a good look at birth rates of Western countries by the way. Allah Almighty have his ways of punishing social degenerates.

 

[Lincoln]

1. Provide evidence. Professional organizations do not conform to wage gaps.

2. This is not a societal norm. Many women in Pakistan are working women. Your perception is FLAWED.

3. Misleading views galore. Nothing wrong with being an obedient but expressive partner. Martial Rape philosophy is FLAWED (Marriage = implied consent by default); Marital Abuse is more appropriate term.

4. Domestic violence is a GLOBAL ISSUE.

5. Feminism is objectifying women. Yes, women have sexual appeal (biology) or your asexual being? Come again.

6. Bullshit.

1. Sure, bud.

Pakistan has the highest wage gap in the world, according to the International Labor Organization; women in Pakistan earn 34% less than men on average. The Global Wage Report 2018/2019 also found women in Pakistan constitute 90% of the bottom 1% of wage earners in the country.

2. How many is many?

According to 2016 data by UN Women, only 26% of women participated in the labor force in Pakistan. Of these, 73% were employed in agriculture, forestry, hunting and fishing. Professional and managerial participation of women remained low, with women comprising only 7.4% of STEM professionals working in the field. Women employed in the formal sector also worked excessive hours versus men, and women with 10 years of education or more were noted as having high rates of underemployment or unemployment.

3. Marital rape is a perfectly valid term. Marriage may be consensual, but does that mean that intercourse no longer has to be consensual between the partners?

4. Yes, it is indeed a global issue. But lets see where it is more prevalent.

About ~ 20% to ~ 40% is the difference. We are not even counting the unreported cases of domestic violence here, these are just the reported ones. We all know how many cases of domestic violence are under reported in Pakistan due to society norms.

5. Feminism isn't objectifying women. Our society is by saying that they must be always covered.

6. What do you mean bullshit? Do you even live in Pakistan? Everyone knows that, specially in lower strata of society, even prevalent in the middle and upper, women are assigned gender roles; that once they grow up, they will be married off, and are pressured to stay away from pursuing a career even if they want to.

This is such a common norm. Dramas depict it, movies depict it, magazines, it's considered normal.

You're in Pakistan, not Sweden.

@OsmanAli98 @M.AsfandYar

There you go, statistical proof. I find this funny, people living in Pakistan are demanding statistical proof despite that it's so common, you can see it in day to day life, if you don't then I don't know what rock you live under, maybe you never leave your DHA Phase 8 or your Bahria Lahore bungalow.

 

[El Sidd]

You're in Pakistan, not Sweden.

But a woman is a woman be it in Sweden or Pakistan.

 

[Lincoln]

This is not a world of what she wants. Her wish would be appreciated if its not going against Shariah

Not meaning control but men are maintainers and protecters of Women. That what Islam says. Nothing like property

Its actually the liberals who consider women like sexual objects. Tell me honestly why would u need a beautiful woman in advertise of Aluminium or beautiful Girls in ads of Telecom Companies. Pardah is there in Shariah and its need to abide by. This is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan

Pakistan doesn't have a Shariah law, it's a (or supposed to be, however you look at it) progressive, democratic state.

Yes, men are maintainers and protector of women, not controllers. A man who is supposed to defend the rights of women, shouldn't be feeling threatened, spiteful, insecure if the people he's oppressing raise voice.

Feminism is also against that sexual objectification, but in core, Feminism is about free choice. Like I said, we don't live under Shariah.
Lastly, let me see where you're heading; putting everything else about ISIS aside, do you consider ISIS's policies on women to be true to Shariah, let me sum them up - pardah always, head to tow outside on the streets, no jobs outside home, their clothing stores must always be covered and in the innerside, husband can hit their wives and dictate to them etc. If you don't agree with these, which policy, specify please.

 

[American Pakistani]

I'm all for women rights, but what garbage happened last year is complete immorality.

These types of women neither want to work outside nor in the house they act mazloom and the only work they have is watching drama 24/7 and gossiping around the neighborhood.

Imo, Pakistani women should work, stand along the male counterparts in every field, do all sort of activities like gym, cycling, etc etc but not watch dramas and act victim when they are not.

 

[LeGenD]

1. Sure, bud.

Pakistan has the highest wage gap in the world, according to the International Labor Organization; women in Pakistan earn 34% less than men on average. The Global Wage Report 2018/2019 also found women in Pakistan constitute 90% of the bottom 1% of wage earners in the country.

This is not evidence but "narrative statistics."

I have worked in professional organizations, and I know from exposure that women are not underpaid in them. In fact, wages are tied to posts and skills.

2. How many is many?

According to 2016 data by UN Women, only 26% of women participated in the labor force in Pakistan. Of these, 73% were employed in agriculture, forestry, hunting and fishing. Professional and managerial participation of women remained low, with women comprising only 7.4% of STEM professionals working in the field. Women employed in the formal sector also worked excessive hours versus men, and women with 10 years of education or more were noted as having high rates of underemployment or unemployment.

Countless women work in Pakistan to support their households.

Narrative statistics again. Women can achieve big in Pakistan (Benazir Bhutto ring any bells?). However, what career choices they are making across the country - is up to them. Nobody can force them to seek a career in which they do not have any interest. Statistical equality in practice is wishful thinking.

3. Marital rape is a perfectly valid term. Marriage may be consensual, but does that mean that intercourse no longer has to be consensual between the partners?

Martial abuse is valid term instead.

Marriage 'may be consensual' is OXYMORON. Marriage is a relationship in which partners (irrespective of gender) consent to having sexual relations by default. Do you (as a husband) need permission from your wife every time you want to initiate [OR in reverse]? You do not have a marriage then but living a lie. Charges of Marital rape are a sure shot way of terminating a marriage in practice and otherwise.

4. Yes, it is indeed a global issue. But lets see where it is more prevalent.

View attachment 609143

About ~ 20% to ~ 40% is the difference. We are not even counting the unreported cases of domestic violence here, these are just the reported ones. We all know how many cases of domestic violence are under reported in Pakistan due to society norms.

These cases are under-reported everywhere.

Enlightening empirical study: https://jech.bmj.com/content/58/7/536

5. Feminism isn't objectifying women. Our society is by saying that they must be always covered.

Sorry to burst your bubble but Feminism facilitate sexual revolution and expressions.

6. What do you mean bullshit? Do you even live in Pakistan? Everyone knows that, specially in lower strata of society, even prevalent in the middle and upper, women are assigned gender roles; that once they grow up, they will be married off, and are pressured to stay away from pursuing a career even if they want to.

This is such a common norm. Dramas depict it, movies depict it, magazines, it's considered normal.

You're in Pakistan, not Sweden.

Yes, I live in Pakistan.

Marriage is an important consideration here because prospects of finding a suitable partner go down with age. Marriage facilitate socio-economic uplift for many households in the long-term.

I see lot of working women in Pakistan - many households allow their women to work because they will collapse otherwise (large number of men cannot manage households with their individual income anymore). Government of Pakistan (GOP) only recognize and report certain types of employment in its books.

TV drama serials are expected to be overdramatized in their projection of social issues on average.

In fact, unemployment is becoming a major problem for men lately. Ponder over this.