Lessons in hate and violence-undercover in a mainstream UK Muslim School

[fallstuff]

John Stossel is a bit of a maverick and likes to take a contrarian view on many things. It's good to have people like that and I like watching his segments, but his reporting had no impact on the mainstream media.



Reasonable people would say you were insensitive. Bigots would say Hindus were insensitive

Thats the point. So hard for some folks to understand.

 

[fallstuff]

No one's slaughtering minorities in India. Occasional riots occur everywhere. The percentage of minorities have gone up if anything unlike Banglidesh.

And if you are referring to my posts, read the context in which i said that, and when I said our country I meant all the eastern countries. If I show up in Dhaka tomorrow and start abusing your soldiers, how would Bangladeshis react?

This kinds of slaughter does not happen in countries boasting democracy. Do not attempt to whitewash these crimes against humanity. Your Govts passively supports these atrocities by not providing justice to the victims of these horrendous crimes. Serving justice is the only effective deterence that these acts of heinous crimes won't happen again. Absence of that, it is just a matter of time before it happens again.

There are all kinds of protests going on all over the world. There are protests against the war, Tea party members protest against Obama showing off their fire arms. Obama is being called a commie 24/7 by right wing media.

These guys are protesting under laws and regulation of Britain. It is perfectly legal as long as they are not instigating violence. Maybe you are not ok with their protests. Perhaps your knowledge about Indian slaughters makes you wonder why the majority in Britain do not act the way the majority do in India ? Seems like you need a lot of integration lessons yourself.

 

[Punjabbi Munda]

Not so overt, or even intentional.

Look at the four recent wars started in the Middle East...

Iraq war, Afghanistan war, Gaza war, and Lebanon war.

All these happened in the past decade, and all of them against Muslim majority nations.

Coupled with rising waves of Islamophobia across the world, there is clearly a problem.

All the major terrorist activities in my recent memory have been carried out by Islamic extremists in my view(major major percentage of terrorism includes Islamic connection with it)

 

[Roybot]

This kinds of slaughter does not happen in countries boasting democracy. Do not attempt to whitewash these crimes against humanity. Your Govts passively supports these atrocities by not providing justice to the victims of these horrendous crimes. Serving justice is the only effective deterence that these acts of heinous crimes won't happen again. Absence of that, it is just a matter of time before it happens again.

You know nothing about India, so no point trying to clarify things to you. And once again go back and read the context in which I said whatever i said. If you still can't see it, don't bother replying.

There are all kinds of protests going on all over the world. There are protests against the war, Tea party members protest against Obama showing off their fire arms. Obama is being called a commie 24/7 by right wing media.

These guys are protesting under laws and regulation of Britain. It is perfectly legal as long as they are not instigating violence. Maybe you are not ok with their protests. Perhaps your knowledge about Indian slaughters makes you wonder why the majority in Britain do not act the way the majority do in India ? Seems like you need a lot of integration lessons yourself.

I have no issues with any of these"protests" . Protest your heart out for all i care, but don't complain about rising islamophobia at the same time. Islamophobia is under the laws and regulation of Britain you know. And don't cry racism when local people start opposing the plans to build a mosque. If you have to be a hate mongering radical islamist, like the ones shown in the video, then go back to your country and do whatever tickles your fancy.

 

[fallstuff]

You know nothing about India, so no point trying to clarify things to you. And once again go back and read the context in which I said whatever i said. If you still can't see it, don't bother replying.



I have no issues with any of these"protests" . Protest your heart out for all i care, but don't complain about rising islamophobia at the same time. Islamophobia is under the laws and regulation of Britain you know. And don't cry racism when local people start opposing the plans to build a mosque. If you have to be a hate mongering radical islamist, like the ones shown in the video, then go back to your country and do whatever tickles your fancy.

What I don't know is that if any justice was served to the victims of the slaughters by the majority in India. The carnage of 26/11 were brought to justice and was claimed as Indian 9/11. Proving once again if you are a minority you do not deserve justice in India.

There is not much I can say about the fundamentalism that runs in you. Your kind don't take too long to show the true color,

then go back to your country and do whatever tickles your fancy.

 

[Roybot]

What I don't know is that if any justice was served to the victims of the slaughters by the majority in India. The carnage of 26/11 were brought to justice and was claimed as Indian 9/11. Proving once again if you are a minority you do not deserve justice in India.

There is not much I can say about the fundamentalism that runs in you. Your kind don't take too long to show the true color,

Can you be any more deliberate in twisting my arguments? You know when there is comma in sentence you are supposed to read the whole sentence as one, and not just take bits of sentences ?

If you have to be a hate mongering radical islamist, like the ones shown in the video, then go back to your country and do whatever tickles your fancy.

There I have highlighted the key words for you. If saying that makes me a fundamentalist, then I am.

And once again, discussing India is out of scope of this thread.

Even then let me tell you, that the people involved in the Samjhauta train bombing incident in India have been nabbed and their trial is going on as we speak. While the alleged mastermind of 26/11 is still sitting in a neighboring country and busy delivering his hate sermons.

Out of all the South Asian countries, India is the only country where the percentage of minority has increased since 1947. So we all know which country's minority is getting the rough treatment.

 

[temujin]

What is scary about the report is that the school featured (Dar Ul Uloom Secondary) is not a fringe madrassa but a secondary faith school that is funded by the state and overseen by the school inspectors OFSTED.They are supposed to teach the national curriculum and in theory should offer admission to any child regardless of their religious background (although I can`t see many non muslim parents wanting to send their children there)

The fact that the school authorities did not allow the undercover reporter access to some of the classes, despite him looking the part (skull cap etc) and having been a member of staff for a considerable length of time would suggest that they were complicit with what was being taught at the institution. Quite how they managed to hoodwink OFSTED and carry on propagating hate for so long beggars belief.

Some of the Islamist apologists on here have sought to dismiss the school as being run by Wahhabis but it is in fact operated by the Deobandi movement, which, despite its puritanical roots, has distinct ideological underpinnings to Wahhabism and attracts a lot of followers in the subcontinent. So its highly likely that the sort of hate filled teaching in evidence at Dar Ul Uloom is a fair reflection of the education children receive at institutions run by the Deobandis in Pakistan and other parts of the world.

@Spaklingway, the news items I previously posted that you requested. I remember many here at the time insisted, with some justification, that the institutions featured belonged to fringe wahhabi groups and therefore not representative of mainstream Muslim opinion

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...-children-uk-being-taught-chop-hands-off.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/81973-wahabbis-control-biggest-mosques-uk.html

However, evidence that the Deobandis, who arguably have a much wider following among 'mainstream' Muslims than the Wahhabis are similarly advocating segregation, anti semitism and Islamist supremacism is a real cause of concern.

Those attempting to rationalise the repugnant antisemitism expressed in the report by citing the founding of the state of Israel and the Palestinian struggle are either ignoring the historical context to Jewish-Muslim hostilities (Banu Qaynuqa, Banu Qurayza, Banu Nadir ring a bell?) or, more likely, being deliberately disingenuous about it. The early conflict between the Muslims and the assortment of Jewsih tribes in the Arabic peninsula has had a profound impact on Islam's subsequent relationship with other communities and is at the root of its deeply held mistrust and hatred of the disbeliever (due to the fact that many Jewish tribes challenged Mohammed's status as a prophet in the early days of Islam).Many of the Quranic revelations relating to disbelievers (which most Islamists regularly use to justify their deeply bigoted and antisemitic views) can also be traced back to this period.


Given the above, I believe what we are witnessing in the Middle East is just a continuation of the 1400 year conflict between Islam and Judaism and nothing to do with the creation of Israel (although it has certainly added to the hostilities).I will post a summary of one of Syed Qutb's works (when I do find it) that clearly illustrates the Islamist view of Muslim-Jewish relations that clearly bear this out..

This also explains the deep hatred of Jews and Idolaters that many Pakistanis appear to suffer from (and hence the RAW-MOSSAD conspiracy theories). In the standoff between the two countries, the Jews are replaced by Hindus (idolaters) who are assigned the attributes traditionally assigned to the Jews by Muslims, i.e those of deviousness, weakness and treachery, based on the Prophet Mohammed's experience with the Jews,

 

[jayron]

@ Soni Dharti, You really think these British muslims are moderate and unfairly victimized?

 

[fallstuff]

Can you be any more deliberate in twisting my arguments? You know when there is comma in sentence you are supposed to read the whole sentence as one, and not just take bits of sentences ?



There I have highlighted the key words for you. If saying that makes me a fundamentalist, then I am.

And once again, discussing India is out of scope of this thread.

Even then let me tell you, that the people involved in the Samjhauta train bombing incident in India have been nabbed and their trial is going on as we speak. While the alleged mastermind of 26/11 is still sitting in a neighboring country and busy delivering his hate sermons.

Out of all the South Asian countries, India is the only country where the percentage of minority has increased since 1947. So we all know which country's minority is getting the rough treatment.

The point for the nth time is if they are breaking the laws of Britain then they should be punished as such. Behavior that might appear offending may not be outside the realms of legal acts. If they were the authorities would have acted by now. Thats what matters in the end. Thats how these societies work. If anybody has a problem with that then they should heed to your earlier advice.

India has a growing minority actually means sq*at to the victims of the slaughter. What is astounding that thousands got slaughtered, not a single soul received justice.

 

[Roybot]

The point for the nth time is if they are breaking the laws of Britain then they should be punished as such. Behavior that might appear offending may not be outside the realms of legal acts. If they were the authorities would have acted by now. Thats what matters in the end.

Too bad you can't see the irony in your argument. See the impunity with which these people are demeaning other religion and cultures in the video? And these are the very same people who will call for the beheading of anyone who dare say anything against their religion or prophet. They are the same people who have blasphemy laws in their country. I mean is this religion so weak that you need insult other religions just to make sure that your kids adhere to Islam? Thats what these radicals are making your religion look like. Yet you can't stop defending them.

The very law and society that allowed these ungrateful people into their country, is being mocked and demeaned by them. What the Danish cartoonist did was "under the realm of law" right? The facebook event, and burning of the holy book was well lawful too, wasn't it? Why so many violent protests then? Why didn't you advocate your realm of law then. It just shows the intolerance, incompatibility and hypocrisy of people like you and the ones shown in the video.

Thats how these societies work. If anybody has a problem with that then they should heed to your earlier advice.

You say thats how the society works, but these fanatics want"shariah law" in that very society. Will the society still function in the same way if "shariah law" is brought in ?

India has a growing minority actually means sq*at to the victims of the slaughter. What is astounding that thousands got slaughtered, not a single soul received justice.

It does actually, specially when in other South Asian countries the percentage of minorities have gone down drastically. And once again you need to go and do some research about if people in India have been put in jail and sentenced for rioting or not. And no need of dragging India into this anymore. Its off topic, open a new thread if you like to discuss that.

 

[temujin]

The point for the nth time is if they are breaking the laws of Britain then they should be punished as such. Behavior that might appear offending may not be outside the realms of legal acts. If they were the authorities would have acted by now. Thats what matters in the end. Thats how these societies work. If anybody has a problem with that then they should heed to your earlier advice.

India has a growing minority actually means sq*at to the victims of the slaughter. What is astounding that thousands got slaughtered, not a single soul received justice.

@Fallstaff

The fact that you maintain nothing offensive or illegal was said in the videos would suggest that you implicitly condone what is stated in it.Someone seemingly as erudite as you would surely know (?) that freedom of speech is supposed to be exercised responsibly and there exists such a thing as hate speech laws in most western countries..

This, from Wikipedia..

In England, Wales, and Scotland, the Public Order Act 1986 prohibits, by its Part 3, expressions of racial hatred, which is defined as hatred against a group of persons by reason of the group's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. Section 18 of the Act says:

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or

(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

Offences under Part 3 carry a maximum sentence of seven years imprisonment or a fine or both.[6]

Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006

The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom (citation 2006 c. 1) which creates an offence in England and Wales of inciting hatred against a person on the grounds of their religion

Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Based on the above, those who figure in the video may have a legal case to answer. However, it is likely that the government would once again chicken out and refuse to pursue the culprits in the larger interests of 'maintaining community harmony', as it did following the undercover mosque investigation despite there being clear evidence that worshipers were being incited to violence against 'infidels' and homosexuals (link in post no 97). This would in turn embolden the Islamists, who will continue to poison impressionable minds of muslim children, leading to further ghettoisation of the community and breeding of jihadism.

Although its tempting to see these incidents as an isolated phenomena largely limited to the UK, I believe on the contrary that the UK serves as a case study for how pan Islamism has radicalised huge swathes of the muslim world as the UK muslim population can be viewed as a 'pure sample', with most confounding factors usually trotted out by Islamists to justify terrorism (depravation, discrimination etc) controlled for to a large extent.

 

[Developereo]

All the major terrorist activities in my recent memory have been carried out by Islamic extremists in my view(major major percentage of terrorism includes Islamic connection with it)

The civilian victims of drone attacks and "shock and awe" bombings by NATO and IDF feel just as terrorized. The victims of 1984 Punjab and 2002 Gujarat also felt quite terrorized. Just because they are not officially classified as "terrorism" doesn't change the reality for those involved.

And don't cry racism when local people start opposing the plans to build a mosque.

Once again you justify collective punishment for individuals' actions. You seem to be consumed by religion; you see everything through a religious prism.

That's unfortunate.

@ Soni Dharti, You really think these British muslims are moderate and unfairly victimized?

If by "these" you mean the specific teachers and administrators then, of course, they should be held accountable.

The proper way to handle this situation would be to take action against the people responsible instead of creating a media spectacle to malign the entire British Muslim community. The people engaged in trial-by-media are not interested in peace or community cohesion; they are just scoring cheap political points to further their own Islamophobic agenda.

Those attempting to rationalise the repugnant antisemitism expressed in the report by citing the founding of the state of Israel and the Palestinian struggle are either ignoring the historical context to Jewish-Muslim hostilities (Banu Qaynuqa, Banu Qurayza, Banu Nadir ring a bell?) or, more likely, being deliberately disingenuous about it. The early conflict between the Muslims and the assortment of Jewsih tribes in the Arabic peninsula has had a profound impact on Islam's subsequent relationship with other communities and is at the root of its deeply held mistrust and hatred of the disbeliever (due to the fact that many Jewish tribes challenged Mohammed's status as a prophet in the early days of Islam).Many of the Quranic revelations relating to disbelievers (which most Islamists regularly use to justify their deeply bigoted and antisemitic views) can also be traced back to this period.


Given the above, I believe what we are witnessing in the Middle East is just a continuation of the 1400 year conflict between Islam and Judaism and nothing to do with the creation of Israel (although it has certainly added to the hostilities).I will post a summary of one of Syed Qutb's works (when I do find it) that clearly illustrates the Islamist view of Muslim-Jewish relations that clearly bear this out..

This also explains the deep hatred of Jews and Idolaters that many Pakistanis appear to suffer from (and hence the RAW-MOSSAD conspiracy theories). In the standoff between the two countries, the Jews are replaced by Hindus (idolaters) who are assigned the attributes traditionally assigned to the Jews by Muslims, i.e those of deviousness, weakness and treachery, based on the Prophet Mohammed's experience with the Jews,

As I said, there has been conflict between all major religions throughout history. All religious texts contains passages extolling their supremacy over others, and using such quotes in isolation is a futile exercise in mudslinging and tit-for-tat finger pointing. Hinduism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have had their share of victim and oppressor roles. This continuing propaganda by some Indians to pump up Islamophobia in a lame, indirect attempt to justify Hindutva fanaticism won't wash, given the brutal history of the subcontinent (i.e. virtual eradication of Buddhism) even before Islam came here.

Focussing just on Muslims and Jews, the relationship is complex. Even in the time of the Prophet (pbuh), there was friendship and enmity towards Jews, but these were specifric cases having more to do with shifting military alliances between tribes, rather than religion per se. Throughout the Middle Ages, Jews found solace in Muslim lands from Christian persecution in Europe. Even in the early 20th century, Arabs in Palestine welcomed Jews fleeing oppression in Europe. It was only later, when Zionists turned on their hosts and resorted to terrorism to demand a Jewish state, that the Arabs wised up to what was going on.

And, let me state this unequivocally, it is the Zionists in Israel who turned this into a religious conflict. There is absolutely no two ways about it. They used religion firstly to justify their occupation of Palestine and, most importantly, because it lets them deflect any criticism by invoking anti-Semitism and Holocaust sympathy. It is not surprising that the Arabs responded in kind -- when you get thrown out of your house simply because you are not Jewish, it is natural that you would develop hatred for those who are Jewish. But the introduction of religion into this conflict was 100% initiated by the Zionists.

 

[fallstuff]

@Fallstaff

The fact that you maintain nothing offensive or illegal was said in the videos would suggest that you implicitly condone what is stated in it.Someone seemingly as erudite as you would surely know (?) that

Although its tempting to see these incidents as an isolated phenomena largely limited to the UK, I believe on the contrary that the UK serves as a case study for how pan Islamism has radicalised huge swathes of the muslim world as the UK muslim population can be viewed as a 'pure sample', with most confounding factors usually trotted out by Islamists to justify terrorism (depravation, discrimination etc) controlled for to a large extent.

Watch the video of a despicable act. Read the YouTube comments following the videos. They are duly condemning the acts of the Church, but it is legal !!

Civil rights attorney Norman Siegel appeared on FOX News' The O'Reilly Factor this evening to defend the Westboro Baptist "Church"'s right to protest the funerals of slain soldiers. The Church claims soldiers died because US allows homosexuality, an original sin.

The Churchs van is hit by a rock, an illegal act.

YouTube - ACLU Defends Right to Protest Soldiers Funeral

 

[Developereo]

the basic problem is muslims see american attack on iraq, afghan, israel palestine issue etc as attack on ISLAM rather than analysing the real reason behind each issue.

Except that the Middle East politics is dominated by Israel, and it is the Israelis who have made religion the centerpiece of the debate. George Bush did say he receives guidance from God. Evangelicals do dominate Republican politics. AIPAC does dominate American foreign polocy in the region.

discussing India is out of scope of this thread.

India is relevant because many Indians (not saying you specifically) promote Islamophobia as an indirect way to justify Hindu extremism.

What the Danish cartoonist did was "under the realm of law" right? The facebook event, and burning of the holy book was well lawful too, wasn't it? Why so many violent protests then? Why didn't you advocate your realm of law then. It just shows the intolerance, incompatibility and hypocrisy of people like you and the ones shown in the video.

While violence is never justified, the protestors had a valid point. European law restricts free speech in many contexts involving racial hatred and the Holocaust. The protestor were demanding equal treatment: if some sensibilities are protected by the law, then why not theirs? Why the double standard in European laws?

these fanatics want"shariah law" in that very society. Will the society still function in the same way if "shariah law" is brought in ?

These people want sharia law for Muslims only. Non-Muslims would not be impacted. Again, special religious courts already exist for Jewish communities in the UK and Canada. These people are not asking for special rights; they want the same rights as already exist for other citizens.

 

[fallstuff]

The very law and society that allowed these ungrateful people into their country, is being mocked and demeaned by them. What the Danish cartoonist did was "under the realm of law" right? The facebook event, and burning of the holy book was well lawful too, wasn't it? Why so many violent protests then? Why didn't you advocate your realm of law then. It just shows the intolerance, incompatibility and hypocrisy of people like you and the ones shown in the video.

You say thats how the society works, but these fanatics want"shariah law" in that very society. Will the society still function in the same way if "shariah law" is brought in ?

It does actually, specially when in other South Asian countries the percentage of minorities have gone down drastically. And once again you need to go and do some research about if people in India have been put in jail and sentenced for rioting or not. And no need of dragging India into this anymore. Its off topic, open a new thread if you like to discuss that.

Once you are a accepted or born as a citizen in a country, all the perks are applied to you, unless otherwise stated. If the law says "if you are a naturalized Muslim, you cannot protest certain issues", however unfair that maybe, that law will have to be obeyed simply because you consented to it as a covenant. You gotta understand that law exists to control certain acts, absence of that those acts are legal acts.

If people protested violently against facebook issues, then they should be punished for that. If the pastor of that Florida church went ahead with Quran burning, I would have had no problem with that. I didn't notice any violent protest in USA about the burning issue.

Shariah to be the law of England has as much chance as me becoming the Queen of England. I would put my money against that any day of the week, twice on a Sunday.

The minority growing in India simply because Muslims tend to have a hire birthrate. The sex ratio of Muslims is on par with the rest of the world. However, same can't be said about the majority in India. There is a clear preference for boys, girl fetuses are routinely aborted by the millions. I know for sure that if this was going on in Bangladesh you would have a field day with that little fact.