Lessons from Saudi Arabia

[Desert Fox]

@GumNaam

if equating love for someone or something to the same level as love for Allah is shirk, if obeying someone INCLUDING parents the same way Allah should be obeyed is shirk THEN EQUATING ALLAH'S BOOK TO SOMEONE ELSE'S BOOK IS ALSO SHIRK!!! GET OVER IT! That IS the definition of shirk in The Quran, so why don't YOU get off YOUR high horse and GO LOOK IT UP FOR A CHANGE!

Again, stop throwing baseless accusations of shirk. Get off your high horse.

Aye, you don't know me dude. I don't claim to be scholar even in my OWN line of work but no one gets off telling me that I don't know anything or am a no body and haven't studied anything WITHOUT presenting their evidence. No more empty claims with no evidence...so if I am a no body, if I have NOT studies anything, if the english (and urdu) translation means nothing (as if YOU are fluent in arabic) then present your evidence that proves that I am a no body who knows nothing. If not, then kindly be silent!

Because you haven't studied anything.

What's your credentials?

No that crap doesn't fly anymore. Why? The people of the books used this SAME pathetic excuse about THIER scholars; the mushriks of Makkah used the SAME pathetic excuse about THEIR forefathers. But the Quran CLEARLY gives them a SHUTUP call by saying unequivocally stating that most of those who they consider a "pious scholars" because of their so called and SUPPOSED dedication to their faiths of judism or christianity were in fact misguided and changing the faith brought by the prophets and messengers. The same slap across the face is given to the mushriks of Makkah by the Quran when The Good Book quotes them as saying that they shall do what they found there forefathers doing by saying that there forefathers were committing heinous crimes and sins!

maybe you should study The Holy Quran for a change...or are you far too proud to humble yourself in front of Allah's book? I actually AM being humble that I am dedicating all this time and energy to remove wrong from what is right instead of blindly following every two bit mullah or mufti that comes around without verifying what he is preaching!

Where's you're proof that alcohol, homosexuality is permissable in Islam?

Read my post again, that was NOT my logic. using your example, if person X is an excellent mechanic who knows cars in and out BUT is ALSO a convict of grand theft auto, am I going to give him my car for fixing? NOPE! But you can feel free and give him YOUR car all you want...good luck gettin' it back! But his knowledge about cars will STILL be sctrutinized based on evidence and merit and will either accepted or rejected none the less.

But what evidence would you have that person X is a car thief?

You're accusing people of being certain things without any proof.

DUDE? I was born and raised in KSA okay? I have never EVER seen a SINGLE 9 year old beduin girl who was hand all the characteristics of a full on developing WOMAN going through puperty! NONE! So save horse crap and stop trying to be an apologist for your long gone so called "scholars" and try to defend the garbage they produced!

What proof do you have that the marriage was consumated at 9?

yeah? Show me ONE. Go on...show me a profile or a picture or a video of an ethnic society where you have 6 to 9 year old girls walking around with full on puberty and mensuration cycles with a firmly made up and mature mind of who they want to marry. GO ON, SHOW ME! I'M WATIING...

Go back and see no where did I mention a specific age.

And yeah, girls do mature earlier than boys, in some racial/ethnic groups more than others.

 

[Nilgiri]

@Desert Fox @Psychic appreciate your conversation here, I am learning from it, the short replies are especially helping....because my eyes glaze over increasingly when its same ole strawman paragraphs from the same quarters.

 

[GumNaam]

@Desert Fox,

Again, stop throwing baseless accusations of shirk. Get off your high horse.
I have given you the evidence straight from the Quran and if that is not enough for you then I'm afraid you for one are elfy-glued to YOUR high horse!

Because you haven't studied anything.
You don't get to say that when you don't even know WHAT I have studied!
What's your credentials?
My credentials are that I study the Quran in great depth nearly on a daily basis. There is a reason why I am able to make posts with screenshots of Quran's verses to various posts throughout the times that i'm been on PDF because when I see rubbish mentioned, I can remember the answer to that FROM The Quran on accounting of HAVING studied it and CONTINUING to study in. And there IS no "certification" required to be a good, knowledgeable Muslim. And if you are gonna turn around that claim that no one has the right to claim that then I'm afraid you are one of those people who loose battles even before they begin!

Where's you're proof that alcohol, homosexuality is permissable in Islam?
Seriously? Have you even BOTHERED to properly STUDY the Quran before question ME like a fool on these issues???

Is this verse that intoxicants (which alcohol is) is the world of the devil NOT enough for you to make it haram???

are these verses from the Quran not enough for you that homosexuality is haram??? Are you REALLY THAT illiterate?

SERIOUSLY man, have you EVEN bothered to study The Good Book? Your questions clearly show that you are an illiterate trying point fingers at others that they too are illiterate like you.

But what evidence would you have that person X is a car thief?
Read my post again...I SPECIFICALLY STATED CONVICT! That means he was convicted in the court so it this case, you can free to ask the courts for proof.

You're accusing people of being certain things without any proof.
I've given you multiple proofs but you are PURPOSEFULLY and KNOWINGLY playing the deaf-dumb-blind game so that you don't have to see the proof!

What proof do you have that the marriage was consumated at 9?
THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT! There IS not proof that it was ever consumated except for a handful of ahadith from a sahabi who was weak in memory! All the historical evidence suggest the opposite!

Go back and see no where did I mention a specific age.
I know that YOU didn't but others LIKE you have mentioned a specific age! I am NOT specifically singling YOU out, I am talking about the overall issue!

And yeah, girls do mature earlier than boys, in some racial/ethnic groups more than others.
Dude, why don't you first go travel the world ATLEAST as much as I have and THEN come back and talk to me before making an absolute FOOL out of yourself by stating ridiculous crap like this! I have NOT seen ANY girl developing at SUCH an early age. The minimum that I've seen is 12/13 and that too, doesn't take its full course until she is past 15. And I'm sure medical and genetic sciences will agree with me on this. Feel free to approach ask any number of doctors and scientists and NOT molvis and muftis!

@Desert Fox @Psychic appreciate your conversation here, I am learning from it, the short replies are especially helping....because my eyes glaze over increasingly when its same ole strawman paragraphs from the same quarters.

are you Muslim or no? Just wondering where your interest lays.

 

[Nilgiri]

are you Muslim or no? Just wondering where your interest lays.

Nope not a Muslim, but I do like to learn about Islam and religions in general. Please continue, I am just observer.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Dudes whatever the conversation has gone through from one topic to another. Just to add here. Hadiths cant be taken as obligatory. Imam Bukhari who compiled Hadith book was born in Bukhara Uzbekistan. Surely he didnt understand the Arabic language by heart as a native. And he came with many pre established ideas from his origin while compiling these hadiths. Naturally he could add some imaginary ideas in his works which was close to his persian region. Persia to Rajasthan veil was a normal woman dress even before birth of Islam. And worshiping of idols also existed before Islam. We see same similarity here, hmm. And Imam Bukhari started to compile Hadith book after 200 years of Prophet Muhammad's death. Its 200 years. Society changes a lot in 200 years. Can anyone relate to 20 years ago scenario with present day? In 200 years society can make up many things as and pass to next generation as Sahih Hadiths as per their own imagination. Its laughable to make Hadiths unquestionable. Many of the problems today can be attributed to this. Regards.

 

[GumNaam]

Dudes whatever the conversation has gone through from one topic to another. Just to add here. Hadiths cant be taken as obligatory. Imam Bukhari who compiled Hadith book was born in Bukhara Uzbekistan. Surely he didnt understand the Arabic language by heart as a native. And he came with many pre established ideas from his origin while compiling these hadiths. Naturally he could add some imaginary ideas in his works which was close to his persian region. Persia to Rajasthan veil was a normal woman dress even before birth of Islam. And worshiping of idols also existed before Islam. We see same similarity here, hmm. And Imam Bukhari started to compile Hadith book after 200 years of Prophet Muhammad's death. Its 200 years. Society changes a lot in 200 years. Can anyone relate to 20 years ago scenario with present day? In 200 years society can make up many things as and pass to next generation as Sahih Hadiths as per their own imagination. Its laughable to make Hadiths unquestionable. Many of the problems today can be attributed to this. Regards.

HOW
DARE
YOU
use your logic and mind because you know nothing...

 

[Doctor Strange]

HOW
DARE
YOU
use your logic and mind because you know nothing...

Here is a live example one generation passing authentic information to next generation. In detrimental form of course

 

[GumNaam]

Here is a live example one generation passing authentic information to next generation. In detrimental form of course

must've been how the "gangnum style" dance was invented!


but joking aside, there is a lot of truth in that. We did an experiment once during my younger days in our university Pakistani Student Association once where we played a telephone game with 10 people...the first guy whispered "roko mat. jaane do" in the ear of the 2nd guy whisper it to the next guy. The 10th guy said that the sentence was. "roko. mat jaane do"...COMPLETELY changing the meaning to the opposite of the very first sentence whispered by the first guy.

for our nonurdu speaking bengali brothers and sisters:
"roko mat. jaane do" = "don't stop. let him go"
"roko. mat jaane do" = "stop. don't let him go"

and this happened in a matter of a few seconds with merely 10 people! do you REALLY think that narrations passed down through years and decades and centuries would remain original? You would want to base your eternity on something THAT error prone and vague? Are you looking to buy some beachfront property in arizona???

 

[Desert Fox]

I have given you the evidence straight from the Quran and if that is not enough for you then I'm afraid you for one are elfy-glued to YOUR high horse!

No you haven't. You are letting your preconceived notions to cloud your understanding of the Quran. You're accusing people of shirk, the single greatest transgression, and you're throwing it around lightly.

You don't get to say that when you don't even know WHAT I have studied

You're right, I don't know what you studied because whatever it was it's causing you to accuse other Muslims of shirk, something ISIS is known to do.

My credentials are that I study the Quran in great depth nearly on a daily basis. There is a reason why I am able to make posts with screenshots of Quran's verses to various posts throughout the times that i'm been on PDF because when I see rubbish mentioned, I can remember the answer to that FROM The Quran on accounting of HAVING studied it and CONTINUING to study in. And there IS no "certification" required to be a good, knowledgeable Muslim. And if you are gonna turn around that claim that no one has the right to claim that then I'm afraid you are one of those people who loose battles even before they begin!

Any average Joe with a computer can do that.

And again, what are your credentials? Have you studied classical Arabic and are you fluent in it enough to understand the Quranic and all of its meanings, many of which are lost in translation?

Seriously? Have you even BOTHERED to properly STUDY the Quran before question ME like a fool on these issues???

I don't claim to be a armchair scholar like you so I will be humble and admit that I don't know more than the true scholars of Islam and neither am I a perfect Muslim but I will call out arrogant people like you.

Is this verse that intoxicants (which alcohol is) is the world of the devil NOT enough for you to make it haram???

I never said it was halal. I was asking you that question because people make that argument who like you disregard the tafseer of the scholars and make their own interpretations.

are these verses from the Quran not enough for you that homosexuality is haram??? Are you REALLY THAT illiterate?

Lol don't try to play that game with me.

There are people like you who disregard the scholars decisions and proclaim homosexuality as halal based on their own interpretation of the Quran:

Don't believe me? Take a look:

America's first Gay mosque with a Gay imam:
http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/.../12/20/meet-america-s-firstopenlygayimam.html

Now tell me, what gives your personal interpretation any legitimacy over theirs?

See what happens? Everyone starts playing the "my own interpretation" game.

Without hierarchy there is chaos.

Read my post again...I SPECIFICALLY STATED CONVICT! That means he was convicted in the court so it this case, you can free to ask the courts for proof.

But who gave that judge the right to convict criminals when that judge watches child pornography in the privacy of his home? I don't know that but I'm just pretending to use your logic right now

I've given you multiple proofs but you are PURPOSEFULLY and KNOWINGLY playing the deaf-dumb-blind game so that you don't have to see the proof!

But why should I take your "proof" (which is just your personal, biased views) over those of scholars?

Oh, right, because you read one of the many English translations of the Quran.

THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT! There IS not proof that it was ever consumated except for a handful of ahadith from a sahabi who was weak in memory! All the historical evidence suggest the opposite!

Perhaps. I won't comment on this as I'm not a religious scholar nor am I pretending to be one.

I know that YOU didn't but others LIKE you have mentioned a specific age! I am NOT specifically singling YOU out, I am talking about the overall issue!

I see.

. The minimum that I've seen is 12/13 and that too, doesn't take its full course until she is past 15.

You don't have a clue do you?

http://motherhow.com/12-and-pregnant/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

In American ghettos girls as young as twelve have gotten pregnant and I have seen this first hand (grew up in the states). Middle and high school pregnancies are very common.

@Nilgiri @Psychic

@Desert Fox @Psychic appreciate your conversation here, I am learning from it, the short replies are especially helping....because my eyes glaze over increasingly when its same ole strawman paragraphs from the same quarters.

I like to keep my responses as short and concise as possible

 

[Centaur]

@GumNaam , brother one question if you don't mind me asking , are you "Quran only" who reject entire hadith sharif, or accept some specific hadith ? I am just curious !

 

[GumNaam]

@GumNaam , brother one question if you don't mind me asking , are you "Quran only" who reject entire hadith sharif, or accept some specific hadith ? I am just curious !

Nope, NOT one of those Quran only brothers but I don't call them kafir either but they none the less mistaken. Having said I am a firm believer that hadith CAN be corrupted unlike The Quran which is perfect and protected by Allah. Therefore I ONLY believe in the ahadith that are in 100% conformity with The Quran and are not against The Quran even in the slightest.

 

[Psychic]

@Desert Fox @Nilgiri
The two gentlemen whom I was arguing with are just like their commie counterparts(Muslim sub-continental ones) have created their own brand of pseudo-Islam. No Muslim scholar has ever said that head covering is not compulsory for women, ironically the one they quoted regarding age of Ayesha upon which there is already difference of opinion says that a woman has to not only cover her head but face as well with only one eye visible, do they follow him on that as well?
Here's a video debunking their claims regarding Hijab.

Nope, NOT one of those Quran only brothers but I don't call them kafir either but they none the less mistaken. Having said I am a firm believer that hadith CAN be corrupted unlike The Quran which is perfect and protected by Allah. Therefore I ONLY believe in the ahadith that are in 100% conformity with The Quran and are not against The Quran even in the slightest.

When it floats your boat it's not corrupted just like the muftis

@GumNaam , brother one question if you don't mind me asking , are you "Quran only" who reject entire hadith sharif, or accept some specific hadith ? I am just curious !

They don't even know how ridiculous they sound. They don't even know that on some issues there is a difference of opinion among scholars, if it suits them they accept it otherwise not. They have created their own brand of liberal Islam to fit in the West. Do you know of any scholar of repute who says that head cover for women is not compulsory?

the same thing for this guy! WHO GIVE A CRAP IF KING RICHARD THE WHATEVER MARRIED A 6 YEAR OLD FRENCH PRINCES?!?!?!?! The real issue in question is the authenticity of this so called "hadith"? NO one to this day, has been able to prove BEYOND the shadow of a doubt if it was authentic or not!

It's authentic. I can use the same argument against the other hadith but I refrain from doing so. Just like your hijab BS you are BSing all over the place. You don't believe her age was 9 fine, there are scholars with different opinions.
But when u say hijab is not OK, you are basically causing corruption. First u didn't believe in Muftis, then u quoted one, then u didn't believe what the same mufti had to say regarding head covering....Do u even realise how ridiculous u sound.

ok buddy, this is it, I'm gonna throw the gaunlet down on this and put YOU smack in the center of the spotlight!

You very vehemently claim, like other traditionalists, that "the hadith which came from Ayesha (RA) herself is stating her age"...okay buddy. Let's see your evidence that this hadith DID in fact come straight from bibi Ayesha RA herself. This is what I am demanding from you, either give us all the following OR APOLOGIZE AND DO TAUBA THAT YOU HAVE NO FREAKIN' CLUE AS TO WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND HAVE JUST BEEN FOLLOWING MOLVIS AND MUFTIS LIKE DUMB SHEEP:
1. THE HADITH ITSELF
2. The name of the narrators of this hadith
3. Their background
4. The evidence they were 100% good, pious Muslims and not munafiqs
5. Every single name of the Muslim in the chain of these narrations
6. The evidence that every single on of these Muslims in the chain of narrations were 100% pious Muslims and not munafiqs
7. FINALLY AND THE MOST IMPORTANTLY, evidence from the Quran that this marriage was in 100% in accordance with what the Quran says.

I along with everyone else look forward to your answer!!! You no longer get to just claim "its hadith its hadith its hadith" without actually PROVING that it IS in fact an authentic hadith. SO LET'S SEE IT, BRING IT ON!

And here's an interesting read...

What a load of gora lala land BS. Islam doesn't has to fit in. Goras are against jihad as well, today it's one thing tomorrow it's another. Hijab has already been declared sick now move on and suit yourself, but don't say it's Islam.

.THE TIME OF "TRADITIONALISTS" IS OVER!

Go ahead and make a new brand of Islam in which u reject every mufti and declare every hadith as a forgery by misogynist jihadis. Yet quote a mufti when it floats your boat, at least don't be a hypocrite. Do u know what ibn Kathir said about hijab? Or u only accept him when he says something which you want to believe?

THAT WE GIVE A RAT'S TAIL ABOUT WHAT THE NONMUSLIMS THINK!!!

fake ahadith that give Islam a bad name

Contradictions.

someone tell this jahil gavaar molvi THAT WE GIVE A RAT'S TAIL ABOUT WHAT THE NONMUSLIMS THINK!!! and this mulla do piaza is gonna sit in "judgement" on the evidence that points to bibi Ayesha RA being 19 at the age of marriage? this mulla do piaza is gonna call MATHEMATICALLY VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE as weak and YET, he'll consider "here say" over the course of centuries as "solid" evidence...give me ONE good reason why the likes of ignoramuses like this mulla do piaza shouldn't be dragged out on the streets and ruthlessly beaten into the dirt until you can't tell the difference between his blood and mud! I can just picture him showing up at the door steps of a 9 year old girl with a marriage proposal for his grand father to a 9 year old girl uttering this same garbage gibberish to convince the father of the 9 year old daughter let his grandpa marry her! And the sad part is, if that father is illiterate and poor, he'll cave in too! PATHETIC! this guy is a vermin, and insect, a parasite that should crushed and eradicated!

the same thing for this guy! WHO GIVE A CRAP IF KING RICHARD THE WHATEVER MARRIED A 6 YEAR OLD FRENCH PRINCES?!?!?!?! The real issue in question is the authenticity of this so called "hadith"? NO one to this day, has been able to prove BEYOND the shadow of a doubt if it was authentic or not!

@Desert Fox
This shamsi guy in the video has converted scores of white men and women to Islam. But our friend here thinks that "this guy is a vermin, and insect, a parasite that should crushed and eradicated!"

You better watch your mouth, because you are gum nam , he is not. He is already active in debunking ISIS in London, and preaching Islam and has convinced white men and women to convert, you, on the other hand, are creating a pseudo Islam in which Muftis are nothing and hijab is a form of misogynist oppression.

No that crap doesn't fly anymore. Why? The people of the books used this SAME pathetic excuse about THIER scholars; the mushriks of Makkah used the SAME pathetic excuse about THEIR forefathers. But the Quran CLEARLY gives them a SHUTUP call by saying unequivocally stating that most of those who they consider a "pious scholars" because of their so called and SUPPOSED dedication to their faiths of judism or christianity were in fact misguided and changing the faith brought by the prophets and messengers. The same slap across the face is given to the mushriks of Makkah by the Quran when The Good Book quotes them as saying that they shall do what they found there forefathers doing by saying that there forefathers were committing heinous crimes and sins!

Go ahead and have a debate with a scholar. We don't follow a gumnam who doesn't even know arabic, is not a hafiz, doesn't know about comparative religion, calls others insects and parasites who should be crushed without knowing them, who don't know what the word khimar means yet peddles lies on it...sorry we don't follow fake imamas and fake mahdis and kazzabs like you. Our forefathers were far more knowledgeable, had a far greater character and integrity and based their opinions on scholastic discussions and on evidence, not what fulfilled their personal tastes.

 

[GumNaam]

@Desert Fox,

No you haven't. You are letting your preconceived notions to cloud your understanding of the Quran. You're accusing people of shirk, the single greatest transgression, and you're throwing it around lightly.

Here you go! If Allah permits you to disobey parents if they ask you to associate anyone with Him then do you REALLY think Allah would not expect you to disobey these so called " scholars" and their books when they are not in conformity of The Holy Quran and order things that are against The Quran??? Do you NOT think? or are these " scholars" more dear to you than your own parents? You are so Not helping your case here!

You're right, I don't know what you studied because whatever it was it's causing you to accuse other Muslims of shirk, something ISIS is known to do.
I clearly presented my evidence from The Quran while the Isis goons ahadith to prove their case Ones and that too, the ahadith that completely contradict The Quran! Oddly enough, that abu bakr baghdadi guy has even gone as far as saying that ahadith books are completely seperate and independant from The Quran! But if you don't like My evidence from The Quran and would follow these so called " scholars" like baghdadi and consider ahadith books as completely independent from The Quran then thats your problem!

Any average Joe with a computer can do that.
THAT Is THE WHOLE POINT! Islam is so easy! NO HIGHLY EDUCATED SCHOLAR ARE NEEDED! The Quran itself says that this deen is EASY! Yes, ABSO FREAKIN LUTELY ANYONE WITH 2 BRAIN CELLS AND A JUNIOR HIGH METRIC LEVEL EDUCATION CAN LEARN ISLAM!!! It is not a difficult religion! And for more complex matters, we the " average joes" AND " average janes" can do ijtehad among OURSELVES thank you very freaking MUCH, WE STILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO NEED FOR YOUR SO CALLED "SCHOLARS"! If you want follow these sectarian molvis like sheep and cattle then be my guest, go for it! BUT DON'T YOU DARE DICTATE TO THE REST OF US THAT WE NEED TO FOLLOW SUIT !!! KAPISH!

And again, what are your credentials? Have you studied classical Arabic and are you fluent in it enough to understand the Quranic and all of its meanings, many of which are lost in translation?
So, all these translations of The Quran that are internationaly recognized and written by scholars of the arabic language is not acceptable to you but other books written by similar scholars are perfectly acceptable to you? can you spell hipocrisy?! And I know EXACTLY what you ol going to say in advance since these are such brow beaten excuses so yes I actually keep an arabic lexographic dictionary with me and keep looking up the meanings of arabic words!

I don't claim to be a armchair scholar like you so I will be humble and admit that I don't know more than the true scholars of Islam and neither am I a perfect Muslim but I will call out arrogant people like you.
There is a BIG difference between humility and stupidity! If you refuse to study Islam on your own and in depth then you aren't being humble, you're being STUPID!

I never said it was halal. I was asking you that question because people make that argument who like you disregard the tafseer of the scholars and make their own interpretations.
I consider this as a miracle of The Quran that it will STILL teach you the right path without any tafseer. Although tafseers are a good thing, they are not a MUST to learn righteousness straight from The Quran.

Lol don't try to play that game with me.
I don't play games like little children. I play for keeps ...

There are people like you who disregard the scholars decisions and proclaim homosexuality as halal based on their own interpretation of the Quran:
Don't believe me? Take a look:
America's first Gay mosque with a Gay imam:
http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/.../12/20/meet-america-s-firstopenlygayimam.html
Now tell me, what gives your personal interpretation any legitimacy over theirs?
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN MIND? Yar tum Kaheen pagel wagal to nahi ho??? khiskey huay to nahi ho? Aqal thhikanay to hay? I said that homosexuality is HARAM in the light of the verse I posted! After reading The Quran's verse I posted above, if you STILL think that I am saying that homosexuality is halal then I'm afraid you have very ill and evil intensions ...

See what happens? Everyone starts playing the "my own interpretation" game.

Without hierarchy there is chaos.
No, actually this hierarchy the very CAUSE of chaos, every sect has its own hierarchy and they are all trying to outdo the hierarchy in other sects! PATHETIC!

But who gave that judge the right to convict criminals when that judge watches child pornography in the privacy of his home? I don't know that but I'm just pretending to use your logic right now
well? Did that judge ever justify child pornography? The Answer is NO! But do your scholars justify Marriage to 6 year old girls? The answer is a resounding YES! So your example has no validity...

But why should I take your "proof" (which is just your personal, biased views) over those of scholars?

Oh, right, because you read one of the many English translations of the Quran.

Perhaps. I won't comment on this as I'm not a religious scholar nor am I pretending to be one.
Maybe because they justify your own inner agenda? Maybe you have a thing for 6 or 9 year old girls? Yeah, if you can accuse me of supporting homosexuality and alcohol being allowed then I can do the samething!

I see.

You don't have a clue do you?

http://motherhow.com/12-and-pregnant/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

In American ghettos girls as young as twelve have gotten pregnant and I have seen this first hand (grew up in the states). Middle and high school pregnancies are very common.
When the heck did I justify that ghetto vulgarity? And how DARE you compare nikah to a 6 year old girl with the vulgarity of the western ghettos! The PRIMARY difference between your molvis' support for child marriages and the ghettos is that at least western world acknowledges that what happens to teenage girls in the ghettos is WRONG! But your molvis JUSTIFY child marriage and that too, of 6 year old girls...YOUR MUFTIS AND MOLVIS ARE SICK PERVERTS!

[USER=167996]@Psychic
Yeah that's right; call for backup ... but unfortunately, No amount of back is gonna help you against me. You know why? Because you aren 't up against me to begin with. You are up against Islam ITSELF!


I like to keep my responses as short and concise as possible
You do that[/USER]

 

[Psychic]

You don't have a clue do you?

http://motherhow.com/12-and-pregnant/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

In American ghettos girls as young as twelve have gotten pregnant and I have seen this first hand (grew up in the states). Middle and high school pregnancies are very common.

It used to be 10(legally) up until the 1880s. In Scotland, it was 12 up until 1929.
Marry married Joeseph(90) when she was 11 (Catholic belief), Isac married Rebecca when she was 3 or 10. The modern day Christians who accuse Muhammad SAW are sitting in a glass house themselves without knowing it.

Regarding age of Ayesha, I already humbled and admitted that since there are different opinions on that, I would refrain from commenting any further and I respect what Ibn Kathir said as well, I do not discredit him (of which I was accused of doing). But when these guys go overboard and forget what the same Mufti said about hijab which was to cover not only the head but all of the face as well except for one eye, these guys then say that we don't follow Muftis, they follow em when it floats their boat.

 

[GumNaam]

@Desert Fox @Nilgiri
The two gentlemen whom I was arguing with are just like their commie counterparts(Muslim sub-continental ones) have created their own brand of pseudo-Islam. No Muslim scholar has ever said that head covering is not compulsory for women, ironically the one they quoted regarding age of Ayesha upon which there is already difference of opinion says that a woman has to not only cover her head but face as well with only one eye visible, do they follow him on that as well?
Here's a video debunking their claims regarding Hijab.

When it floats your boat it's not corrupted just like the muftis


They don't even know how ridiculous they sound. They don't even know that on some issues there is a difference of opinion among scholars, if it suits them they accept it otherwise not. They have created their own brand of liberal Islam to fit in the West. Do you know of any scholar of repute who says that head cover for women is not compulsory?


It's authentic. I can use the same argument against the other hadith but I refrain from doing so. Just like your hijab BS you are BSing all over the place. You don't believe her age was 9 fine, there are scholars with different opinions.
But when u say hijab is not OK, you are basically causing corruption. First u didn't believe in Muftis, then u quoted one, then u didn't believe what the same mufti had to say regarding head covering....Do u even realise how ridiculous u sound.


What a load of gora lala land BS. Islam doesn't has to fit in. Goras are against jihad as well, today it's one thing tomorrow it's another. Hijab has already been declared sick now move on and suit yourself, but don't say it's Islam.


Go ahead and make a new brand of Islam in which u reject every mufti and declare every hadith as a forgery by misogynist jihadis. Yet quote a mufti when it floats your boat, at least don't be a hypocrite. Do u know what ibn Kathir said about hijab? Or u only accept him when he says something which you want to believe?



Contradictions.


@Desert Fox
This shamsi guy in the video has converted scores of white men and women to Islam. But our friend here thinks that "this guy is a vermin, and insect, a parasite that should crushed and eradicated!"

You better watch your mouth, because you are gum nam , he is not. He is already active in debunking ISIS in London, and preaching Islam and has convinced white men and women to convert, you, on the other hand, are creating a pseudo Islam in which Muftis are nothing and hijab is a form of misogynist oppression.


Go ahead and have a debate with a scholar. We don't follow a gumnam who doesn't even know arabic, is not a hafiz, doesn't know about comparative religion, calls others insects and parasites who should be crushed without knowing them, who don't know what the word khimar means yet peddles lies on it...sorry we don't follow fake imamas and fake mahdis and kazzabs like you. Our forefathers were far more knowledgeable, had a far greater character and integrity and based their opinions on scholastic discussions and on evidence, not what fulfilled their personal tastes.

You still don't understand the ground realities, do you? The issue is that these so called scholars of yours will NOT be given ANY level of authority OR power. They shall be treated as REGULAR human beings who are prone to erroring and as such, EVERY SINGLE THING THEY SAY SHALL BE AND WELL BE SCRUTINIZED IN THE LIGHT of THE QURAN AND PROPER WELL KNOWN AND VERIFIED AUTHENTIC SUNNAH! This is JUST how it is going to be... And keep blabbing on and on and on about scholars this and scholars that without realizing that THEY ARE ALL ACROSS THE BOARD ARE NOT "FIRMLY HOLDING ON TO THE ROPE OF ALLAH" since all of them across the board are broken apart into sects. The Quran has already exposed them as misguided people. Now that does NOT mean that everything they say is wrong... not by a longshot. But it DOES mean that they will NOT be given ANY level of authority OR position EXCEPT for that of a common man and EVERYTHING that they shall be constantly and repeatedly checked and rechecked. These muftis and molvis stand before us as convicts on account of being labelled as those who have fallen alpert into seets and a convict living in any society is CONSTANTLY kept a very close eye on ... but if you are fine with blindly following these sectarian scholars like sheep and cattle then good for you. Just remember, that sheep and cattle are ultimately ted to a SLAUGHTER HOUSE!