Learning by Doing The Pakistan Army’s Experience with Counterinsurgency

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

I largely agree with your points. However, a few comments: firstly, the army should have an exit strategy from FATA as a fighting force, in my opinion the army, air force and even the navy need to establish bases in FATA mainly for recruitment and integration.

Secondly, absolutely agreed, the civilian institutions need to handle the situation but as the report shows the bureaucracy and the governemnt have not stepped up to the task, this makes the army's poistion difficult: if they push the govt. to act they would be 'interfering with democracy', if they do not the situation would go worse.

Thirdly, absolutely we need to integrate FATA and perhaps even award them the provincial status exactly at par with the rest of the provinces with complex laws and higher civil arrangement the development would invariably come. However, I believe that the mainstream political parties do not want this to happen, basically to maintain the centrist model of Pakistan; shortsighted of them but since when have our politician been bright?

Fourthly, in my opinion we should not arm the tribes as tribal divisions might come into play and the tribal armies might turn on each other. Rather a new force, perhaps a new section in the FC should be created solely for the FATA populace to be recruited and trained on the lines of the military: integration, rotation, unifed duties. I have suggested it further that we need to establish our police force on the lines of the military and separate from the CSS model as, in my opinion, it is riddled with fault lines that compromise police work. We should perhaps set an exam, physical test and aptitude test that is tough so good men come for work whose sole duty is the law, not politics. Similarly, I think the govt. must take steps to integrate the Pakistani people. My suggestion is to have exchange programmes within colleges and universities of Pakistan where we send students to spend a semester in other provinces, like the Fulbright model.

Lastly, 100% agreed that the drone attacks must stop. I think maybe we should even think about sealing up the border properly.

Tribals are already armed with guns and rocket launchers...they should be atleast financed.
Right now the taliban is problem so any tribal force taking up arms against taliban should be welcomed and encouraged...the tribal lashkars do it out of the sense of protection of their lands and values, not as an order from superior officer like army. So they are usually more motivated...they are pashtun-centric forces so they dont switch to taliban...they know their terrain and know how to fight in it....
Army always used such tribal lashkars haphazardly and for limited use and then sidelined them....
In my opinion army is always the last resort...musharaf messed it up, he sent the army first to FATA.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

lol don't be silly.
once a soldier is always a soldier,if fighting breaks out i bet they will stay with our army.

You are truely an american. Fight breaks out between who?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I was going to reply back in detail. But i have realized that you are playing centcom-like role for your army or perhaps it is always debate for you that you have to win.

let me correct you:

you were going to reply back, but then you realized you had no response and no argument to make

I always tried to ignore your sectarian factor but i think i underestimated it ....i truely miss hyperion.

here i'm not following you

let it out, what you're trying to say

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Tribals are already armed with guns and rocket launchers...they should be atleast financed.
Right now the taliban is problem so any tribal force taking up arms against taliban should be welcomed and encouraged...the tribal lashkars do it out of the sense of protection of their lands and values, not as an order from superior officer like army. So they are usually more motivated...they are pashtun-centric forces so they dont switch to taliban...they know their terrain and know how to fight in it....
Army always used such tribal lashkars haphazardly and for limited use and then sidelined them....
In my opinion army is always the last resort...musharaf messed it up, he sent the army first to FATA.

no they didnt "sideline" them they only stopped providing arms to lashkars which either may have switched loyalties or which may have been using state-provided ammunition to fight other tribes

we dont need to be EXACERBATING the problem here

case-by-case basis approach is used but again - as i said this strategy of using lashkars is going on for 5 years now; many many pro-Army//govt. Pakhtuns sacrificed their safety for the sake not just of their lands, but all of Pakistan.

trust me - FATA is desperately in need of better public services, education, health facilities etc. And I pray to God that whoever replaces the corrupt lunatic goons who presided over Pakistan during these 5 years of bullshyt, they will work hand in hand with the Army because COAS made it very clear --- there has to be synergy between fauj and hakumat in order for their to be a lasting peace and a succesful COIN campaign

Army is good but they aren't God; theyre doing their best to restore peace and I know this for a fact

 

[jaibi]

Tribals are already armed with guns and rocket launchers...they should be atleast financed.
Right now the taliban is problem so any tribal force taking up arms against taliban should be welcomed and encouraged...the tribal lashkars do it out of the sense of protection of their lands and values, not as an order from superior officer like army. So they are usually more motivated...they are pashtun-centric forces so they dont switch to taliban...they know their terrain and know how to fight in it....
Army always used such tribal lashkars haphazardly and for limited use and then sidelined them....
In my opinion army is always the last resort...musharaf messed it up, he sent the army first to FATA.

Pak-one my point exactly, the tribals need to let go of the old ways and be a part of the system to eradicate the Talibans. At least in the long run, otherwise we are sowing a new problem.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Pak-one my point exactly, the tribals need to let go of the old ways and be a part of the system to eradicate the Talibans. At least in the long run, otherwise we are sowing a new problem.

look at the literacy rates in FATA; i consider myself lucky and blessed because in my family education importance was imparted in every one of us.....my father used to get thrashed when he got bad grades; i got thrashed to hell if i got bad grades

if they are provided with public services in FATA -- rather than they having to take bus to Peshawar to get anything -- in ten years the whole area could be fully developed. Size-wise, it's not such a large region

economic security and national security go hand in hand

 

[jaibi]

look at the literacy rates in FATA; i consider myself lucky and blessed because in my family education importance was imparted in every one of us.....my father used to get thrashed when he got bad grades; i got thrashed to hell if i got bad grades

if they are provided with public services in FATA -- rather than they having to take bus to Peshawar to get anything -- in ten years the whole area could be fully developed. Size-wise, it's not such a large region

economic security and national security go hand in hand

My premise too, sir. This point should not be debated by anyone.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

let me correct you:

you were going to reply back, but then you realized you had no response and no argument to make



here i'm not following you

let it out, what you're trying to say

Ta Pak fauj wal centcom ye, ma kho waila che chunkay tribal ye nu kiday shi zrra khlassay khabary wakay....kho hamesha ghunde mayosa dey kram...ma kho awri dali che weena obo na teenga wi kho laka che sta kay weena nishta, komay khatay na jorr ye?.....pashto tar che shta ka na ka bilkul tus bottle ye?....na kho sta mazhab sara meena shta na pashto sara.....che kala may pakhtano khabara dalta karray da, mata khalak wai abu zolfiqar kho dasay na wai.....
Ta na yo request da, khuday ta ogora zaan ta pakhtun ma waya, mung dey badnaam krralo...

look at the literacy rates in FATA; i consider myself lucky and blessed because in my family education importance was imparted in every one of us.....my father used to get thrashed when he got bad grades; i got thrashed to hell if i got bad grades

if they are provided with public services in FATA -- rather than they having to take bus to Peshawar to get anything -- in ten years the whole area could be fully developed. Size-wise, it's not such a large region

economic security and national security go hand in hand

How about Qalam as well as talwar?

 

[Jango]

@jaibi
In my opinion
1- Army is not fit to operate in civilian population, operations against TTP should be handled by civil armed forces only like FC and levies who are recruited from same tribal areas. They should be properly trained and equiped to deal with TTP. Your report indicates that FC has performed well in orakzai and other upper tribal agencies.

You sir have no idea about the capability of the Taliban...our FC is in no position to take over the frontline role against TTP in that region. THe amount of coordination required b/w PAF and PA< the importance of Army Aviation, SSG, Engineering jobs, the medevac capabilities, role of Armored corp and Artillery, all of this is stuff which the FC doesn't have.

2- Pro-governament militia and lashkars should be properly financed and armed by governament/army, their importance and role is of primary nature. They and FC should operate togather against TTP.

Lashkars are already being supported by PA, areas which have been cleared are then sometimes handed over to a Lashkar. Everybody recognizes and appreciates the role of the Lashkar.

3- The whole Army should pull out of FATA...enough with their adventurism...

Unless you want to hand the whole of KPK to Taliban, no it should not.

4-Pakistan air force should not be used on its own territory, FATA is part of Pakistan, it is not enemy territory.

That is a completely absurd argument. You use airpower where you need to, to flush out the enemy. It is a war zone now and we should recognize it as such.

5- FCR should be abolished, pakistani low should be implemented in FATA and state shouldnt use it as labortary for experiments in future..it should no longer be treated like a buffer zone like british.

Agreed.

6- Pakistan, basically army, has made deal with america for drones. Drones are carried out in FATA with army's consent...This needs to be stopped...tribal's blood is not cheap and shouldnt be traded with dollars.

Drone attacks are carried out with consent from the civilian government, the civilian government is as responsible as the military in this regard.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

You sir have no idea about the capability of the Taliban...our FC is in no position to take over the frontline role against TTP in that region. THe amount of coordination required b/w PAF and PA< the importance of Army Aviation, SSG, Engineering jobs, the medevac capabilities, role of Armored corp and Artillery, all of this is stuff which the FC doesn't have.

There are 80000 FC personnels in FATA, why they are not sufficient for about 10000 TTP and foreign militants?.....You use air force , Army Aviation, Armored corp and Artillery against regular army in conventional warfare.....While TTP fight in mehsud way i.e ambushes as well as through suicide attacks.....SSG is relevant but not the other units of army and PAF, that can be easily handled by FC and levies if they are well trained and well equipped.

Unless you want to hand the whole of KPK to Taliban, no it should not.

Then tribals wont heal......

That is a completely absurd argument. You use airpower where you need to, to flush out the enemy. It is a war zone now and we should recognize it as such.

PAF is not fighting with america or india, they are few thousands Taliban who use unconventional warfare....Army should be ashamed of itself for not being able to handle talibans without use of air force....Do talibans have air force and tanks?

Drone attacks are carried out with consent from the civilian government, the civilian government is as responsible as the military in this regard.

civilian government can not interfere in army affairs, military operations and drones are completely arm's decisions, it is state within state....

 

[qamar1990]

You are truely an american. Fight breaks out between who?

between pathan tribes and pak army.

i am a pakistani american.
your a pakistan hating pakistani how you feel bout that?

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

between pathan tribes and pak army.

i am a pakistani american.
your a pakistan hating pakistani how you feel bout that?

Why do you think Pathan tribes would fight with Pakistan?.....any example?

P.S: you are an American of Pakistani origin, your way of talking is completely American.....America has different races, whites, blacks, asians, arabs, south asians etc

 

[Solomon2]

...we are neither with Parents (army) nor with its childern(taliban)...we are neither with producers nor products....for us it is not matter of patriotism but survival....we are not dolls that you would play with us...

Like Shenandoah.

 

[qamar1990]

Why do you think Pathan tribes would fight with Pakistan?.....any example?

P.S: you are an American of Pakistani origin, your way of talking is completely American.....America has different races, whites, blacks, asians, arabs, south asians etc

im not saying they will fight. its you who was implying that they will fight us because they see us as an alien force, and i said they wont fight us.
if they do fight us we will defeat them.


i was raised in america so ofcourse im going to sound like one. im proud to have american and pakistani nationalities

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

im not saying they will fight. its you who was implying that they will fight us because they see us as an alien force, and i said they wont fight us.
if they do fight us we will defeat them.


i was raised in america so ofcourse im going to sound like one. im proud to have american and pakistani nationalities

Its better if you dont comment on deep matters of pakistan, FATA which are beyond your understanding.
Give up your American nationality and come back to pakistan, country needs you.