Learning by Doing The Pakistan Army’s Experience with Counterinsurgency

[Jango]

I was gonna reply to that load of bull my monkey luffy, but AZ did it before me perfectly!

 

[qamar1990]

Nope, i belong to these areas, it has to do with history......people still remember British army and their ways......walking around in Patloon, the dress of farangis, is kind of blasphemy in these areas

well they shouldnt see our army as an alein force, do you how many generals and soldiers are pathans? the ethnic group that occupies this area. they need to come up to date and realize who is in charge not their tribals leaders but the army. the army needs to bring these guys in our control they can't have their own way anymore.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

well they shouldnt see our army as an alein force, do you how many generals and soldiers are pathans? the ethnic group that occupies this area. they need to come up to date and realize who is in charge not their tribals leaders but the army. the army needs to bring these guys in our control they can't have their own way anymore.

These pashtun faujis when return back to their home villages, they wear shalwar kameez, pakol or turban, chaplai, wasket etc....they dont wear their uniform or wear patloon or jeans.
With love and sweet words you can persuade a pashtun to go to hell, but by force you can not take him even to heaven !

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

that is criminally false

warning shots will usually be fired -- and that too only when VEHICLES (whether it be a mehran or a double-cabin) come zooming and disobey CLEAR orders to stop

put yourself in their shoes....youre in an insurgency racked region where terrorists easily blend in with the majority peaceful Pakhtuns who have nothing with militancy

You heard what happened in Quetta the other day? A Frontier Corps jawan sacrificed his life by challenging a truck driven by some whacko terrorist who exploded himself prematurely. Had the FC guy (someone please tell me his name) not done anything fast, there would be more carnage of Hazara community. And that is something that we can not tolerate.

You forgot what happened at the friendly volleyball game in Lakki Marwat --- where anti-taleban tribes were SLAUGHTERED in huge numbers and obliterated by a massive bomb which must've been over 140 kg to cause such destruction

where's your condemnation for that??

200 Pakhtuns were killed or very very very badly inujred that day for what? How many were injuted and lost their arms and legs and are now barely you can recognize them....

PLEASE!




share a new link (in any language) about this incident.....if it happened, then the army royally screwed up big time

but in general, you really shouldnt be driving close to army vehicles.....incidentally -- despite our lax concept of traffic discipline in Pakistan -- you really shouldnt be over-taking any cars on a 2 lane road




unfortunately, there is truth to this statement; i wont lie and sugar-coat it.....

let me give you some anecdotes here -- Swat offensive (rah e rast) comes to mind.

our "Pak army bashing loving" bastard media and the TTP/TNSM rat-bastards made claims that Swat was full of destroy villages, burning countryside under massive Pakistani army bombardment. Two weeks into the offensive, however, the military felt confident enough to take foreign reporters on a guided tour of Swat to refute those claims. Go on YouTube and watch Al Jazeera documentary on that

out of officers own pay - they were providing the funds for the IDPs (via cash cards) and tens of thousands of these cash cards were provided to families......what did the terrorist rats do for Swat? They beat girls, they threatened barber shops, they bombed music shops -- they raped the local economy

understand that Pak-Army OBJECTIVE here was waging a counterinsurgency operation, not a massive offensive to level the place!!!! If you can't tell the difference -- then it's Army problem?? Perception you have is only made by our "free and fair" media whose loyalties are to their bank accounts and viewer ratings rather than to objective reporting and loyalty to the STATE.

You know, I visited Swat roundabout 1 year after the operations took place. I saw the fruit orchards, wheat fields, forest hills and many of the little towns mostly untouched. I'm sure there was intelligence spooks around to keep an eye on things, but Baine Baba Ziarat area looked fantastic and people were in full spirit. I mean, I didnt see even bullet casings on the ground in some of those areas. Mingura and other areas like Char Bagh - yes there was rebuilding and re-integration effort (by the Army, not the bloody incompetent corrupt unpatriotic civilian government)


4

the Army kind of learned "on-the-job" about how to deal with the locals -- for Pashtun officers/jawans it was easier but for some who hail from other areas -- Army should have done crash-course on the basics of "decor" or modus operandi in those areas --especially unsettled areas like FATA which are ultra conservative and very honour-based people who dont like to be stopped and bothered




ABSOLUTE AND UTTER NONSENSE!!!!

Air force, artillery, mortars was NEVER used on built-up areas




the army (and the private sector in Pakistan and NGOs) did what the government either couldnt do or was unwilling to do because they were busy defending themselves against all the many scandals against them




yes it was about 1.2-1.5 million IDPs -- possibly more. Thank God they had family in Mardan or Peshawar or Isloo/Pindi/Karachi or they would be 100% homeless

those whose homes were destroyed --- it's critical for Pakistan to rebuild those houses, fix their shops, compensate them. Otherwise naturally as a human instinct they will be angry.




show me ONE link where army shot kids who were moving......show me one proof of this

now of course when army caravan moves, they have to clear the road up ahead.......why is that?

because the terrorist cockroaches and rats bury bombs in the road; and when one explosion goes off, it puts civilian life in danger.....when the explosions go off, more would follow....followed by small arms fire from hidden locations; possibly snipers to take out a few wounded jawans

so if the army has to inconvenience a few people for the sake of their own safety and the safetry of the public itself -- I am supporting it




no; the M.O. is usually that those who are confirmed to be harboring terrorists in their homes will have their homes destroyed to the ground

age-old tradition actually

as for extra-judicial killings -- it's wrong and immoral. Our judiciary is shyt and they set some of these RAT bastards off free so there is anger in the military about this among the junior ranks. But they just do as ordered.

in my opinion -- anyone any soldier doing an extra-judicial killing of a terrorist or suspected terrorist who is un-armed and clearly has no explosive jacket on him --- that soldier must be court-martialed




who will enforce the peace? the police??? give me a break! talk to interior ministry about that

by the way, you do know about the existence of the Frontier Corps right? ? ? I'm assuming you do

members of the Khyber Rifles, Tochi Scouts, Thal Scouts, Dir Scouts, South Waziristan Scouts, Kurram Militia (which i am very familiar with), Bajaur Scouts, Mohmand Rifles, Mehsud Scouts (just to name "a few") are 100% locals of their respected areas!!!

pro-govt militias are being used since 2008




aur kuch?

I was going to reply back in detail. But i have realized that you are playing centcom-like role for your army or perhaps it is always debate for you that you have to win. I always tried to ignore your sectarian factor but i think i underestimated it ....i truely miss hyperion.

 

[Spring Onion]

@jaibi
Despite of all the COIN tactics and what not, results are poor, the think tank didnt bother to cross-check his report with opinions of local pashtuns...let me mention few things why tribals have resentments towards pak army

1- At army check posts in FATA, there are no stop or halt signs, people are themselves supposed to know where to stop their vehicles, at a distance well clear of the post. Those who unwittingly makes the slightest mistake, bullets are sprayed on them..lot of unpleasants accidents have occured, in many instances families got killed when they didnt stop at the specific distance. Moreover the driver has to raise his hand in air as in surrunder while walking towards check post, a security measure, but awkward and insulting for a tribal in his own area.

2- You can not overtake a military vehicle in FATA and adjacent settled territories in south, fire would be opened on you if you try to overtake it. In the one of the incident in my area, a wedding coach tried to overtake a large and slow military truck, bullets were sprayed on coach killing 12 individuals including groom who was sitting in the front seat.
3- Heavy use of artillary and mortars by army whenever their checkposts are attacked. Heavy collateral damage occurs from use of heavy weaponry by army, lot of civilian deaths and damage to properties.

4- Army doesnt know how to interact with locals neither they are trained for it, searches and checking by army is stern and gruff...check posts at every second with army having this attitude, tribals feel as if they dont belong to pakistan. It should be done through FC and levies who belong to area and know how to interact with locals.
5- Heavy use of air strikes in FATA, cause heavy collateral damage. In addition to human losses , Air strikes by jet fighters destroy houses, shops, markets, crops etc. The fact that high level air force is used on them, makes tribals feel that they are treated as adversaries and their area as enemy territory.
6- Wherever operation has taken place in FATA, the area present the view of war zone. Houses, shops, madrassas and other buildings are demolished...these are poor people , they wont be able to re-construct it. No aid to assist them.
8- More than million IDPs in KPK...due to operation rahe e nijat in south and situation in north waziristan...they were asked by military to leave the area without provision of food and shelter. They are in very bad condition in camps. Those who returned to south waziristan , found their houses completely destroyed. They are living in conditions like refugees in their own waziristan...they are proud people, their dignity is badly injured.
9- When army caravan move on road, first road is cleared then there is automatic curfew , no announcement to locals. When you see approaching caravan from far distance, you have to halt at your location. Army shoots any moving human being at sight...lot of ugly incidents have occured in which many people including childern were shot because they were moving when army caravan was approaching.
10- "Action in Aid of Civil Power Ordinance, 2011" is imposed on FATA for the purpose of giving a free hand to troops to conduct search-and-arrest operations without prior notice. The law even empowers them to execute any person without due legal process on the basis of mere suspicion that he or she may have, or might establish, links with militants...

the list is long. But simply understand that military presence, comprised of non-locals is not welcomed in FATA...Counter-insurgency should be handled by civil armed forces and pro-governament militias.



@nuclearpak, @TaimiKhan , @Aeronaut, @Abu Zolfiqar, @Spring Onion, @RazorMC @Secur, @haviZsultan, @Last Hope, @F.O.X, @Emmie @Safriz, @luftawaffe, @Armstrong, ', @Rajput_Pakistani @Capt.Popeye, @Umair Nawaz @Irfan Baloch, @A1Kaid, @Slav Defence

Agreed with all these points BUT again all these measures have been taken after you never know who is a suicide bomber.

Just recently when a suicide scum exploded himself killing over dozen people under our office. The Army blocked the road which was open earlier and the bomber came through that road.

now the road is blocked with another checkpost where all men women have to pass through the strip laden foothpath after screening through the scanner and men are also bodysearched.

though its bothersome for us but thats the last resort we dont have an option .

These pashtun faujis when return back to their home villages, they wear shalwar kameez, pakol or turban, chaplai, wasket etc....they dont wear their uniform or wear patloon or jeans.
With love and sweet words you can persuade a pashtun to go to hell, but by force you can not take him even to heaven !

are you the old monkey the luffy?

NVM. everyone be in police or army do not wear uniform when on leave and at their home towns.

so??

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

I was gonna reply to that load of bull my monkey luffy, but AZ did it before me perfectly!

For how long? Do you know why free media is not allowed in FATA?

Members here often tell me "you are either with us (army) or with them(Taliban) "....This is typical american tone, we dont buy it...we are neither with Parents (army) nor with its childern(taliban)...we are neither with producers nor products....for us it is not matter of patriotism but survival....we are not dolls that you would play with us...you radicalized and talibanized a big portion of our community and then asked them to take u-turn on taliban after 9/11...what are we? Some labortory rats? ..

 

[jaibi]

I really thought that this thread would not get so many replies and I am truly glad that we are heading somewhere.

I would just like to present my two cents on the situation. Firstly, @Pak-one, the Pakistan armed forces are faced with a dilemma. You see, if the Paktuns feel like they are being invaded so does the military. Ideally, I, being Punjabi, should be able to freely visit FATA but we all know that is not the case. Similarly, the army too strongly feels as if it is in a war zone because it is being attacked, criticised and not welcomed to operate into an area that is by law a part of their nation. This stems perhaps more into history but for today it is a problem.

Yes, the army should be more sensitive to Pakhtun culture and yes, the army should respect the civilians there but the civilians should also realise that the army is their. As an outsider of the Pakhtun culture I see the introversion of the Pakhtuns as a problem and the will to fill the gap must come from both sides: the army and the civilians.

The report basically was to highlight the tactical changes and institutional adoption, not critique the results that have been produced. Your input is supremely important as we, as Pakistanis, need to learn about each other and solve a problem but I would suggest that you also give us some solutions, concrete ones.

I am not here to support or take side but I have also heard similar experiences to the one narrated by @Rajput_Pakistani. Our soldiers are facing an extremely tough situations and in the end self-perseverance prevails, that is human psyche.

I would really like to point out that this is high time that we Pakistanis push towards integration and stop perceiving Pakhtuns, Mohajars, Balochis as some remote, unattainable, alien and foreign cultures. We are one nation, our problems are for everyone who lives here.

Regards.

 

[RazorMC]

For how long? Do you know why free media is not allowed in FATA?

Members here often tell me "you are either with us (army) or with them(Taliban) "....This is typical american tone, we dont buy it...we are neither with Parents (army) nor with its childern(taliban)...we are neither with producers nor products....for us it is not matter of patriotism but survival....we are not dolls that you would play with us...you radicalized and talibanized a big portion of our community and then asked them to take u-turn on taliban after 9/11...what are we? Some labortory rats? ..

Free media is relative to our perception. If you've followed the free media in the US, you'd have noticed the obvious downplaying of PA's success so that the viewers wouldn't make the comparison. The world's only superpower has failed to do what the PA has been able to achieve. Yet no free media is willing to talk openly on this and have ended up putting forth whatever the Pentagon tells them to.

 

[jaibi]

Free media is relative to our perception. If you've followed the free media in the US, you'd have noticed the obvious downplaying of PA's success so that the viewers wouldn't make the comparison. The world's only superpower has failed to do what the PA has been able to achieve. Yet no free media is willing to talk openly on this and have ended up putting forth whatever the Pentagon tells them to.

Exactly, we should not downplay the uniqueness and the difficulty of the situation in which our armed forces are operating. Agreed.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

@jaibi
In my opinion
1- Army is not fit to operate in civilian population, operations against TTP should be handled by civil armed forces only like FC and levies who are recruited from same tribal areas. They should be properly trained and equiped to deal with TTP. Your report indicates that FC has performed well in orakzai and other upper tribal agencies.
2- Pro-governament militia and lashkars should be properly financed and armed by governament/army, their importance and role is of primary nature. They and FC should operate togather against TTP.
3- The whole Army should pull out of FATA...enough with their adventurism...
4-Pakistan air force should not be used on its own territory, FATA is part of Pakistan, it is not enemy territory.
5- FCR should be abolished, pakistani low should be implemented in FATA and state shouldnt use it as labortary for experiments in future..it should no longer be treated like a buffer zone like british.
6- Pakistan, basically army, has made deal with america for drones. Drones are carried out in FATA with army's consent...This needs to be stopped...tribal's blood is not cheap and shouldnt be traded with dollars.

 

[Rafi]

@<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=143584" target="_blank">jaibi</a></u>
In my opinion
1- Army is not fit to operate in civilian population, operations against TTP should be handled by civil armed forces only like FC and levies who are recruited from same tribal areas. They should be properly trained and equiped to deal with TTP. Your report indicates that FC has performed well in orakzai and other upper tribal agencies.
2- Pro-governament militia and lashkars should be properly financed and armed by governament/army, their importance and role is of primary nature. They and FC should operate togather against TTP.
3- The whole Army should pull out of FATA...enough with their adventurism...
4-Pakistan air force should not be used on its own territory, FATA is part of Pakistan, it is not enemy territory.
5- FCR should be abolished, pakistani low should be implemented in FATA and state shouldnt use it as labortary for experiments in future..it should no longer be treated like a buffer zone like british.
6- Pakistan, basically army, has made deal with america for drones. Drones are carried out in FATA with army's consent...This needs to be stopped...tribal's blood is not cheap and shouldnt be traded with dollars.

Again the Afghan refugee is talking out of his backside, this is HM's Capital Talk hardly a friend of the Army or so-called establishment, Bajaur people of all walks of life including politicians are thanking the PA for restoring peace.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Free media is relative to our perception. If you've followed the free media in the US, you'd have noticed the obvious downplaying of PA's success so that the viewers wouldn't make the comparison. The world's only superpower has failed to do what the PA has been able to achieve. Yet no free media is willing to talk openly on this and have ended up putting forth whatever the Pentagon tells them to.

Sorry, i should have said "the media", waisey hi free ko laga lia. Only few journalists are allowed and they had to cover things from army prospective and have programme about it on tv praising army and interviewing faujis...there is intense curfew in north waziristan, you people dont know about it as media has no access to the area....to hide the actual casaulties, there is silence over tirah operation...again no media access...army dont want you to see unpleasant things...Army cant afford critcism, it is already demoralized, apney awam ki nazro may girna nahi chahti.

 

[jaibi]

@jaibi
In my opinion
1- Army is not fit to operate in civilian population, operations against TTP should be handled by civil armed forces only like FC and levies who are recruited from same tribal areas. They should be properly trained and equiped to deal with TTP. Your report indicates that FC has performed well in orakzai and other upper tribal agencies.
2- Pro-governament militia and lashkars should be properly financed and armed by governament/army, their importance and role is of primary nature. They and FC should operate togather against TTP.
3- The whole Army should pull out of FATA...enough with their adventurism...
4-Pakistan air force should not be used on its own territory, FATA is part of Pakistan, it is not enemy territory.
5- FCR should be abolished, pakistani low should be implemented in FATA and state shouldnt use it as labortary for experiments in future..it should no longer be treated like a buffer zone like british.
6- Pakistan, basically army, has made deal with america for drones. Drones are carried out in FATA with army's consent...This needs to be stopped...tribal's blood is not cheap and shouldnt be traded with dollars.

I largely agree with your points. However, a few comments: firstly, the army should have an exit strategy from FATA as a fighting force, in my opinion the army, air force and even the navy need to establish bases in FATA mainly for recruitment and integration.

Secondly, absolutely agreed, the civilian institutions need to handle the situation but as the report shows the bureaucracy and the governemnt have not stepped up to the task, this makes the army's poistion difficult: if they push the govt. to act they would be 'interfering with democracy', if they do not the situation would go worse.

Thirdly, absolutely we need to integrate FATA and perhaps even award them the provincial status exactly at par with the rest of the provinces with complex laws and higher civil arrangement the development would invariably come. However, I believe that the mainstream political parties do not want this to happen, basically to maintain the centrist model of Pakistan; shortsighted of them but since when have our politician been bright?

Fourthly, in my opinion we should not arm the tribes as tribal divisions might come into play and the tribal armies might turn on each other. Rather a new force, perhaps a new section in the FC should be created solely for the FATA populace to be recruited and trained on the lines of the military: integration, rotation, unifed duties. I have suggested it further that we need to establish our police force on the lines of the military and separate from the CSS model as, in my opinion, it is riddled with fault lines that compromise police work. We should perhaps set an exam, physical test and aptitude test that is tough so good men come for work whose sole duty is the law, not politics. Similarly, I think the govt. must take steps to integrate the Pakistani people. My suggestion is to have exchange programmes within colleges and universities of Pakistan where we send students to spend a semester in other provinces, like the Fulbright model.

Lastly, 100% agreed that the drone attacks must stop. I think maybe we should even think about sealing up the border properly.

 

[qamar1990]

These pashtun faujis when return back to their home villages, they wear shalwar kameez, pakol or turban, chaplai, wasket etc....they dont wear their uniform or wear patloon or jeans.
With love and sweet words you can persuade a pashtun to go to hell, but by force you can not take him even to heaven !

lol don't be silly.
once a soldier is always a soldier,if fighting breaks out i bet they will stay with our army.

 

[RazorMC]

Sorry, i should have said "the media", waisey hi free ko laga lia. Only few journalists are allowed and they had to cover things from army prospective and have programme about it on tv praising army and interviewing faujis...there is intense curfew in north waziristan, you people dont know about it as media has no access to the area....to hide the actual casaulties, there is silence over tirah operation...again no media access...army dont want you to see unpleasant things...Army cant afford critcism, it is already demoralized, apney awam ki nazro may girna nahi chahti.

But what if a foreign journalist gets attacked or kidnapped while covering the news? The international media will be quick to whitewash over all PA have accomplished and bring the entire focus on that journalist. Daniel Pearl all over again.