Leadership of PAF needs a healthy change !

[pakistanMYheart]

I am new to this forum, by not new to reading and discussing about Pakistan's military, specially the PAF. What I am going to say, may be a new discussion here, but I think the time has come to sort it out.

Our defence forces have a typical leadership hierarchy. In the PAF for example, the top commanders are always Pilots. I am not concerned about operational posts, but posts such as Chairman of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), and the Chief Project Director of JF-17 project, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff for Administration, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff for Support services , Assistant Chief of the Air Staff (Information Technology), Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Personnel Management), Base Commanders of Non-Operational Bases(like Kalabagh and Kohat), and many more ... , are also taken by Pilots.

So, overall this creates an atmosphere of "the wrong person, for the wrong job". And when it comes to developing new technologies, we always find non-technical persons, leading technical projects. It is not hard to imagine, that the technical person is best suited to lead technology projects. We just have to stop begging for technology from other countries. We need learned people to reach the top ranks of forces, who start ambitious research and development projects. And secondly, this leads to mismanagement, which directly effects the morale of the force. Try discussing this out with any of your friends in PAF (specially from branches other than Pilots, and you will know what I am saying). I know many PAF people, and what bugs them most is, that they keep working through out their lives, but they cannot reach the top rank in their own branch even !!!

So, quite like our political system, where the right man never makes it to the right job (e.g. a railway minister is never a railway expert), our forces also have the same system. And the long term fate of such systems is well known.

What do you say .... ?

 

[Manticore]

So, overall this creates an atmosphere of "the wrong person, for the wrong job". And when it comes to developing new technologies, we always find non-technical persons, leading technical projects. It is not hard to imagine, that the technical person is best suited to lead technology projects.

it is happening in all fields in pakistan , not only in the army.. nontechnical beaurocrats and simple bscs are leading the phds of the country.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@ANTIBODY

yes ... this is sadly true ... but i believe that we can create an atmosphere of awareness among the young generation ... so they can gradually put things right ...

 

[Comet]

Such a sad thing.... Is this our fate to have wrong people at wrong places. I think this should change as soon as possible.

 

[Munir]

It will happen if the companies will get more high tech and competitive. Right now it is a blessing that the umbrella of the forces are protecting it financially and technically. Most nations that had only commercial companies have lost them to international markets either through competition (usual the destruction of smaller companies by US-Europe-Asia import protection) or they are simply eaten by bigger less innovative companies... If you look how difficult big companies have producing something like F35, Eurofighter or Rafale you would see the handy link to a reliable customers like our own forces...

I think Pakistan is just in the startup mode. With JF17 gearing up we will see more and more companies becoming part of it... And since it is notpossible to do it all by the forces it will lead to commercial companies. UAV in Pak buss is an example that it is done and can be done...

About pilots becoming leading persons... They are probably the finest we can get. I would not go for people like Nawaz or Zardari... And I hope surely that they will not become board members of it... I hope the companies will radually startup a commercial part and so will open a new export market... But do notice that it is extremely difficult to get there...

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@Munir

I dont quite understand what you have said about companies. Can you please explain more?

and about Pilots being leaders. I have no doubt in my mind that they are the finest of men/women. But the matter under discussion is "right man for the right job.

Just like our politicians, who think that they are fit for every job. Today somebody is a minister for education, tomorrow he/she is the minister of health, and God knows what will be next.

Same is true for PAF Pilots. Today somebody is the Director of Operations (this is a post that only a pilot should handle), tomorrow he is the Assistant Chief of the Air Staff for Administration (oh my God !, Administration in PAF is responsible for housing, medical services, security,accounts etc.), and next he is holding a key post in the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex !! (its just absurd!, PAC is responsible for developing and maintaining aircraft and aircraft parts).

 

[Muradk]

When everyone joins PAF from day 1 they know that GDP rule that is how it is every where, fighting force will always stay on top, You cant have a Army COAS from engg, or logistics, He will always come from a Fighting unit or Command.
DCAS ENGG in PAF is a Air Marshal what else do they want. ACAS education is a Air Cdre. Becoming an Air Cdre in our days was Becoming an Air Marshal.
PAF is not IAF that they will make a helicopter pilot the COAS a person who has never gone beyond 200 knots, Now what will he know he is one of the guys who was suspended from fighters and and now he commands. Well he speaks good English but he will never understand how a GDP thinks or acts.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@Muradk

1. No one, before joining PAF knows that only GD(P) will go to the top. Please show me any PAF advertisement that states so.

2. I think you have mis interpreted the discussion. No body here is saying that a pilot should not become Chief of the Air Staff. Yes he can become the Chief. What is being discussed here, is that a pilot should do what he knows and is trained for, and leave other fields of expertise to the respective experts

3. "Going beyond 200 knots". Does not seem to be a suitable logic. Beyond 200 knots should be mandatory for leading a fighter flying formation. An Air Force is not a fighter aircraft formation. It has a number of other functions, besides flying, that keep the air force operational. So, let people who are experts in their own job, lead their respective areas of expertise. The overall command should be with any one who is a good administrator, not a good pilot.

If you are talking about India, then I have to say they are more mature than us in this regard. Their parliament gave a ruling, that a helicoper pilot can be CAS. Why not? the job of Chief of Air Staff has nothing to do with flying, or for that matter any specific air force expertise. He has his Deputy Chiefs, who lead individual areas of expertise. Job of CAS is to co-ordinate all activities. He can be from any background. Anyone, with good administrative capabilties.

Yes, a CAS should know how a GP(P) thinks or acts. But a CAS must also know how technology is developed, among other things.

If we donot improve things, specially with regards to technology, we will always keep begging others for technology. This will let them manipulate us in any way they want. If we buy technology from USA, for example, any sensible person can understand that we have practically given our war in their hands. They can choke us any time by stopping supply of spares, for example.

And our forces are not taking the right step in this direction, because we do not have the right men at the right places. Specially, those leading technology projects and organizations are incapable of doing so,because they are trained for something else, and they are doing something else.

 

[Manticore]

administerative fields should be dealt by a well qualified administerator
flying by a pilot
hospital by a docter
air defence specific personnal
engineering and aircraft development to engineers
every retired person should not become an advisor
paf leadership by war course graduates

one person cant be master of all...

Thank God army is run by a army chief and not a bearucrat

i think what the original poster was saying that individual subfields of paf are being led by non technical personnal?

sir murad, does it mean that if a person has had some mishap in his life and has been grounded, or he is an enjineer, would he be treated as a second rate citizen?

 

[SQ8]

1. An AIR FORCE is built primarily on the core of pilots, while there are other departments. There is no air force without pilots to fly Combat Aircraft which constitute any meaningful air force, the army has helicopters as well..is that an Air force??. While there is no certainty you will go to the top in any organization, chances are that to be a head honcho in a law firm you probably should be a lawyer. The reason why fighter pilots usually head the PAF is because our air force is made of up of mostly fighters. Unlike the USAF which has a sizable transport wing as well and therefore the current head has usually flown transports, at the same time, he is also experienced in special warfare and tactics which fit neatly into the current scenario facing those forces, which is what influenced his appointment.For Pakistan, they key Air borne threat is from India(unless Baitullah gets jets) and the Indians will most likely use combat aircraft to attack us. In that case an expert in air warfare is usually the best choice, helicopter pilots in the PAF usually don't go to Air warfare school, Neither do engineers or transport pilots(read about the selection process)since they are supposed to do their jobs(correct me if I am wrong). That leaves solely those who fly fighters and therefore it is out of them that we usually get our Air Chief(as far as the standard is concerned, these people aren't just damn good pilots, Murad sb can testify to it, there is a lot more that goes into being a pilot in the Air force, otherwise find me a UCAV with guns and ill kick the crap out of anybody in the eastern hemisphere). Now if the Indian parliament allows a helicopter pilot to become Chief that's their prerogative. IF their leadership sought it best.. then so be it.

2. The pilots.. most of them, Know their job too well, However to say that they only know how to fly a plane and any other task is beyond their scope of learning is folly. I am a communications engineer as it says on my degree, but I also do control systems for just about any application pretty well. So to say that even though I am capable of designing a monitoring system for a thermal power plant. I should not do so since I am by profession a communications engineer?Our ballistic missiles were designed by nuclear scientists and engineers..wrong men for the job? :S. And as far as PAC is concerned, it has had Engineers heading it in the past, and will so in the future. If one should only stick to what they are trained for then NONE of the present ministers or political leadership has ANY qualification whatsoever to run this country, and Quite a lot of people who are responsible for a lot of Achievements in Pakistan.. Were never Qualified or right for the job. And the next Passing out parade should be handled by an event manager..Frieha Altaf maybe?.
On the other hand, To allot power to someone not on the basis of merit but by force.. is something I do oppose. If there is a pilot who has no knowledge of administration, or a general who has no idea how to run the country is and is quite bad it at. He should not be appointed or allowed to continue in that post. And that is a wrong man for the job.

3.We are not ignoring technology, let me assure you. There is always reluctance to change by some old hands in every organization but it does come eventually. Technology requires a base, and sadly when it was possible our leadership ignored the need to expand that base. And now when we do wish to expand that base we cannot due to overwhelming restrictions. Quite a few of the newer tech in our armed forces was bought by posing as civilian buyers. Contrary to what most people believe engineers cannot just develop radars out of thin air, you need chips and IC's and processors which ARE NOT available to us because they are usually BANNED for export specifically to Pakistan. We dont have a local setup to manufacture such components(especially of the more sophisticated sort needed for these applications) because these machines are banned once they find out who they are selling it to. And there are usually not many blue prints available to manufacture them let alone those precision machines needed to manufacture components for the ones needed to make electronics components. Yet, we have manged to survive and reach some sort of parity.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@ANTIBODY

very well said ... !

@santro

While I agree with most of your valuable comments, I beg to differ on a few.

"An AIR FORCE is built primarily on the core of pilots". Today, an Air Force is built on the core of TECHNOLOGY. And only ONE of the technologies is an aircraft, and a pilot is an operator of that technology.

"chances are that to be a head honcho in a law firm you probably should be a lawyer".
So ? To be a head in an Air Force, you should be part of the Air Force, and know well what an Air Force does. And let me assure you, an Air Force does a hell lot more than just flying fighter aircraft.

"helicopter pilots in the PAF usually don't go to Air warfare school, Neither do engineers or transport pilots".
All officers, who are destined for higher ranks in PAF, go for Air Warfare courses. These officers may be from any branch. These courses include Air War courses at Air War College, PAF Base Faisal and National Defence University, Islamabad.

"these people aren't just damn good pilots".
I totally agree. But then who says that engineers (for example) are ONLY damned good engineers, and are not good at administration, or technology planning, or handling an aircraft development project or anything else?

"Now if the Indian parliament allows a helicopter pilot to become Chief".
Means we should wake up and learn a lesson from them.

"Our ballistic missiles were designed by nuclear scientists and engineers..wrong men for the job? ".
I salute the nuclear scientists and engineers, who designed ballistic missiles (if they did). Please correct your information. The missiles were a combined effort of propulsion experts, control systems experts, communication experts, metallurgists, and a variety of others.

"I am a communications engineer as it says on my degree, but I also do control systems for just about any application pretty well".
This is great. But, for this you must have been a part of a setup that does control systems, and you would have learnt and practiced it. Yes, a pilot can learn to do anything in the world if he gets the right training. But then, why not anybody else?

"NONE of the present ministers or political leadership has ANY qualification whatsoever to run this country".
If something wrong is happening, it does not mean that something wrong should always happen.

"To allot power to someone not on the basis of merit but by force.. is something I do oppose.".
You got it right. This is exactly what is happening in PAF.

As regards to technology, Yes, we are not ignoring it. We are working well. But not fast enough. Not efficiently enough. Read the history of Singapore, South Korea, Dubai. This is the pace of advancement that is required.

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistanmyheart,

Where have you been my good man---we have been waiting for someone like you to bring some excitement to this baord.

You are right in what you are saying but in the pAF---for now the pilots rule---it may change in the future---it has to change for the better of the PAF and the country. The pilots will not let go of their venerable position without a fight----there will be blood spilt.

For the decisions made by the pilots in the last 20 years, has put the PAF way behind the eight ball---more than one time they have been caught sleeping at the job ( procurement )----don't get me wrong----there are honest men there as well---but as a corporation---the PAF has scored a C - overall if you compare it to army a possible A to A+ ( who you talk to ) and navy a possible B + ( at how you look at things for the navy---a step child of the pak defence forces ).

I mean to say---look at them---they have been after the best of the best all the time---and if someone pushes them in a different direction of the second best---even a recently retired air marshall starts bad mouthing his commander in chief---.

 

[Muradk]

Just like to tell members who have friends and don't have actually know how PAF runs. When you get your first Command as a Wing Commander you are a Officer Commanding of a fighter Sqd, You as a SQD Commander (fighter pilot) have Air Def, Planning , Training, Engg, Logistics, Personal, Medical,Social Club under him and of all that he is running a fighter Sqd which is not a easy task. Now thats 1 man who is running the show how he runs his show ( SQD ) is up to him, You have a lot of people working for you, That is why a GDP is given preference over everyone else because he commands most departments than any 1 person.
Most of you don't know this there are only 2 people in PAF who have the Power the COAS and a SQD Commander of a Fighter SQD. Now as a Wing Cdre which is a Lt Col he can over ride any one he feels like except the COAS because of the fire power he has under him.
Just give you an example 1979 I took 9 Sqd to Kalabagh AFB came back to Shorkot the OC flying who is senior to me says why is your SQD not flying I said I grounded everyone sent all the airmen home and pilots back except ADA because they are all tired. He say bull **** I want planes in the air right now and I said no. He say I am senior to you and the OC Flying your Sqd Comes under me I said yes it does on paper not in reality if any plane crashes or a man dies I am responsible not you, Will you take responsibility if any thing happens to the plane or my men and by the time Base commander Reaches there and I said the same thing to him they both walked away.
So as a Wing Commander you are given so much power that you start seeing things differently.
Tell an Engg to run a fighter base which did happen in Decca. The guy didn't even know where to start he couldn't speak a GDPs language
we are all flying and I say ok time for PANCAKE and he sitting in his office listening to us says didn't you guys have breakfast, Pancake in a GDPs term means return to base. Well he did retire as a Group Capt and a very respected man, But when it came to anything pertaining to engg he was a GOD. And to tell you the facts after retirement the only people who make **** loads of money are the non GDPs


Pasting
Our defence forces have a typical leadership hierarchy. In the PAF for example, the top commanders are always Pilots. I am not concerned about operational posts, but posts such as Chairman of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), and the Chief Project Director of JF-17 project, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff for Administration, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff for Support services , and many more ... , are also taken by Pilots.

Chairman PAC has factories or in other words overall hangers for MirageIII, V, FT-5, 6, 7. F7, F7pg, K-8, JF-17 and Light air crafts.
The Air Marshall who is the Chairman is a fighter pilot because he knows about fighter what time it takes one to get fixed who needs a fighter at what base and he has Engg working for him who get to become AVMs now which was unheard off.
DSAC Admin has to be a GDP because he ran his SQD, his Wing, his Base so he has all the qualities a Admin needs, DCAS Support a new post which was created by ex-COAS Tanveer. Same thing it has to be a GDP because he knows how it works.

I know men who did noting all there lives in PAF but because of internal politics they got medals , Land, Houses and they still ***** about PAF. well I don't have anything else to say. I am going Pancake.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@Muradk

Please do not quote examples from history or tradition. Because, historical trends and tradition is exactly what we are trying to change here. If you experienced something in your past, it does not mean the same should happen in the future. People like you want the young generation not to look forwards, and change for better. You only want them to look back, follow your silly traditions, and never change any thing. This kind of thinking has given Pakistan resistance to change and slow progress.

"You as a SQD Commander (fighter pilot) have Air Def, Planning , Training, Engg, Logistics, Personal, Medical,Social Club".
As opposed to what @Muradk thinks, I have first hand experience of the working of the PAF. A SQD Commander (fighter pilot) has all these departments under him, just because it is going on as such. Otherwise, no one wants to work under the illiterate person (as far as departments other than flying are concerned). The way engineering people, logistics people and administration people manipulate the poor SQD Commander is well known to all. He frequently has to go crying to the Base Commander (something that pilots are very fond of), and get his problems solved. This is exactly why pilots need a Base Commander to be a pilot.

"That is why a GDP is given preference over everyone else because he commands most departments than any 1 person".
Please donot misguide this forum. A GDP is given preference because, in an absurd way, the pilots want to keep ruling the Air Force. There are two ways to reach the top. One is to work hard, and show that you are at the top. The other way is to suppress everyone else, so you will automatically be at the top. This method is called Feudalism, which is exactly what happens in the Air Force.

"Just give you an example 1979 I took 9 Sqd to Kalabagh ... ".
This is a useless mention. Anybody working in any good organization or company knows, that you are the final authority in your own area of work. With your seemingly limited view of the world, you are considering your actions heroic. However, if you open you eyes, this happens daily, and everywhere.

"PANCAKE ...".
Another illogical example. A small boy would know, that if an engineer is leading a group of pilots, he cannot manage it well, until he is trained for it. And the same is true vice versa. The pilots that command departments that are not related to their field, face the same situation at the hands of engineers, administrators and logistics officers. They may use their seniority to shut people up, but that is what happens. And no pilot is bold enough to discuss this daily embarrassment.

"The Air Marshall who is the Chairman is a fighter pilot because he knows about fighter what time it takes one to get fixed who needs a fighter at what base".
You are again misguiding the forum. The Air Headquarters decides, who needs a fighter and when. The Chairman is not a part of the Air Force (he is a part of the Ministry of Defence). So, he does not make such decisions. His job is to ensure timely maintenance of whatever aircraft or equipment is sent to him. And a pilot is the most ill suited person for this job.

The Chairman knows what time it takes an aircraft to get fixed ?
He must be a Saint then. No one knows how much time it will take to get an aircraft fixed, unless the aircraft is opened up by the respective engineers and technicians, and a fault diagnosis is carried out. @Muradk, most kids know this, dont you?

DCAS (Administration) is a GDP, because he has all the administration capabilities ?
I would like to enlighten the forum that Administration in PAF is responsible for housing, security, medical services, accounts. @Muradk says that during a one or two years appointment as a Base Commander, a pilot can learn how the manage the housing, security, medical services and accounts of the WHOLE AIR FORCE. We really need a smiley here .

DCAS (Support) is a GDP, because he knows how it works?
For the forum, Support in PAF is responsible for supply of spare parts, fuel, clothing, vehicles and other things. This is called Logistics in most organizations. Any sensible person knows that logistics is an extremely specialized job, and people learn it over years.(First you have to study Logistics Management). It is the lifeline of any organization. @Muradk, I hope you dont claim that you can fly an aircraft without fuel, because a pilot can do anything ?

I cannot understand your last paragraph. If you would explain it in a more sensible manner (not considering that this is a comedy show going on), may be we all can benefit from it.

 

[pakistanMYheart]

@MastanKhan

Thank you for your valuable comments. You mentioned procurement, which a sore area of the Air Force. And only because Pilots manage it.

So we all know where it ends up. We end up buying extremely costly equipment. We end up buying aircraft with no maintenance facilities, and we have to keep begging all our lives for spare parts. And the list is endless ...

And on the top of it. We do not focus on local Research and Development ... because Pilots do not have this vision ... they have a typical military style of leadership ... just bull*** and get it done now! ... without using their brains (Ref to the 9 SQN example given by @Muradk above) ...