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That is your perception. Every single son of an Army man that I have known while visiting the US has worked part-time jobs to support himself through college. Exceptions will always exist. Some Army officers come from very wealthy families and they can well afford sending their children to foreign schools without any financial worries. However this is a small proportion. In graduate school, I remember undergraduate students who were children of Army officers working in the computer labs and holding other odd jobs. This was the community that I remember here and there. Certainly never saw the massive generalization that you are alluding to in your post about students in Canada.

The fact is that most outsiders like yourself have nothing but second hand information to go by, as such passing judgments on the Pakistan Army is hardly fair.

Where you have detractors of the Army, you will also find the supporters in overwhelming numbers. The fact really is that Pakistanis love their armed forces. The Army has its bad days with the image, but overall, us Pakistanis appreciate what the Army has done and continues to do for the country. If I was lying then the the two consecutive polls run by International entities would not show the Judiciary and the Army in the two top most popular spots.

In July of 09, the Army had an 89% approval rating. The highest of any other institution. If one cares to look, see the International Republican Institution's poll here.

I am not questioning Pakistan's love for its army. Every country loves its army and its nothing that fantastic or unique. Can you tell me what the functions of the various private enterprises run by the army are ? From cement to food to retail items the army is involved heavily in the private sector and that is something you cannot deny. I have been to Pakistan and was surprised to see the level at which the army is present in public life. The Fauji foundation is one of the biggest enterprises in Pakistan and the beauty of such organizations is that they are not liable to reveal their finances or their books to any regulatory organization. If i am not wrong army officials also get a piece of land which many of them sell for huge profits and most of the higher level officers are more of businessmen than armymen. What is your opinion about all this ? Yes the people of Pakistan love their army but studying the history of Pakistan, the Army has never let go of its hold on Pakistan.
 
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and again im not talking about each and every armyman but only the higher ones. Its the generals and the brigadiers we should be talking about. Its an obvious thing that the jawan or lower ranked soldier will not enjoy the same perks as a general would.
 
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Its amazing to see individuals who have not even stepped inside Pakistan passing such mighty judgments on our institutions. The article flies in the face of the polls that have been conducted by neutral foreign sources and show that despite the negative PR some are trying to give to the Army, it has been and remains one of the most popular institutions in the country.
 
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and again im not talking about each and every armyman but only the higher ones. Its the generals and the brigadiers we should be talking about. Its an obvious thing that the jawan or lower ranked soldier will not enjoy the same perks as a general would.

How do you think one gets promoted to the rank of General or even Brig as you say...

It takes a service of more than 23 years.. It's a hard-earned rank with lots of sacrifices, hardships and toil.. If India does not serve it's military men as well as Pakistan does, i don't think there is any reason for you to complain !

While there may be corrupt Generals [every army including India's has plenty], the perks awarded to Generals are hard-earned for a public service.

As far as land is concerned, i don't think you are aware that the land given to retired officers is mostly in the areas which are not cultivable. Not really good land as far as money is concerned.
 
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and again im not talking about each and every armyman but only the higher ones. Its the generals and the brigadiers we should be talking about. Its an obvious thing that the jawan or lower ranked soldier will not enjoy the same perks as a general would.

So how many sons of Brigs and Gens do you know from Pakistan? As I have said, its easy for you to pass judgments regurgitating ill-informed articles. The facts are different. I have been on both sides having studied in the US with sons and daughters of retired officers (rarely did I come across those of serving ones). There certainly was no airs about them or that or luxury.

If the Army is guilty of so much financial corruption then why don't the civilians punish it in public polls as they do the politicians? After all we are not fighting a war with an external enemy that the nation needs to stick with the Army and support it. The fact they don't is because what they try to stick on the Army in terms of corruption really does not stick. This is a fact.

There are more underlying issues that folks who have not seen things up close will miss. This is certainly the case for a vast majority of outsiders, Indians being no exception to the case.
 
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So how many sons of Brigs and Gens do you know from Pakistan? As I have said, its easy for you to pass judgments regurgitating ill-informed articles. The facts are different. I have been on both sides having studied in the US with sons and daughters of retired officers (rarely did I come across those of serving ones). There certainly was no airs about them or that or luxury.

If the Army is guilty of so much financial corruption then why don't the civilians punish it in public polls as they do the politicians? After all we are not fighting a war with an external enemy that the nation needs to stick with the Army and support it. The fact they don't is because what they try to stick on the Army in terms of corruption really does not stick. This is a fact.



There are more underlying issues that folks who have not seen things up close will miss. This is certainly the case for a vast majority of outsiders, Indians being no exception to the case.

lol I dont think our point of views will match, so lets just leave it at that. To get my point across, please watch this between 38:30 till about 45 mins. What I am trying to explain is very well worded in that. And these are statement by Pakistan's themselves so you cant write them of as being India. Not everyone share your opinion on the army my friend. There are others who see right through it.The video's show the many sides of the Pakistani Army. Comparisons with India are meaningless.


 
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Rohail, the truth is that most serving officers cannot even dream of sending their children overseas for education. Once they retire and move into civilian jobs, then only can they afford to do so on their higher civilian salaries or by selling part of the land that they may have been fortunate enough to buy with installments.

Yes true Indeed.and even if they have get lands and jobs in Army Welfare trust so wht they spend there life serving this nation and i think its there right to get and piece of land , a house and a job .

And every citizen has got the same opportunity to get in Army so this is really absurd but sum retard Indian to present baised story.

Long Live :pakistan:
Long Live Pakistani Army
 
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Please Read


Book shines light on Pakistan military's '£10bn empire'


The Pakistani military's private business empire could be worth as much as £10bn, according to a ground-breaking study. Retired and serving officers run secretive industrial conglomerates, manufacture everything from cement to cornflakes, and own 12m acres [4.8m hectares] of public land, says Dr Ayesha Siddiqa, author of Military Inc: Inside Pakistan's Military Economy.
The book tackles a previously taboo subject - the range and depth of the military's business interests - considered a major factor in the ambitions of the generals who have ruled Pakistan for more than half of its 60-year history. "It feeds directly into the military's political power; it's an expression of their personal and organisation strength," said Ms Siddiqa, a former director of research at the Pakistan navy.

Five giant conglomerates, known as "welfare foundations", run thousands of businesses, ranging from street corner petrol pumps to sprawling industrial plants. The main street of any Pakistani town bears testament to their economic power, with military-owned bakeries, banks, insurance companies and universities, usually fronted by civilian employees. Ms Siddiqa estimates that the military controls one-third of all heavy manufacturing and up to 7% of private assets.

Profits are supposed to be pumped back into schools, hospitals and other welfare facilities - the military claims it has 9 million beneficiaries - but there is little transparency. "There is little evidence that pensioners are benefiting from these welfare facilities," she said.

Of the 96 businesses run by the four largest foundations, only nine file public accounts. The generals spurn demands by parliament to account for public monies they spend.

The military's penetration into society has accelerated under President Pervez Musharraf, who has also parachuted 1,200 officers into key positions in public organisations such as universities and training colleges. The military boasts that it can run such organisations better than incompetent and corrupt civilians.

In a 2004 speech to open a new industry owned by the Fauji ("Soldier") Foundation, General Musharraf boasted of "exceptional" military-owned banks, cement and fertiliser plants. "Why is anyone jealous if the retired military officers or the civilians with them are doing a good job contributing to the economy?" he said.

But Ms Siddiqa says the military businesses thrive, thanks to invisible state subsidies in the form of free land, the use of military assets, and loans to bail them out when they run into trouble. "There are gross inefficiencies and the military is mired in crony capitalism. The primary purpose of a trained military is war fighting. They are not designed for the corporate sector."

Her £10bn estimate of military wealth is a "rough figure", she says, split between £6bn in land and private military assets.

"Military Inc." comes at a sensitive time for Gen Musharraf, who is struggling to rebuild his popularity after the botched dismissal of the chief justice, Muhammad Iftikhar Chaudhry, in March. The move sparked nationwide demonstrations that have snowballed into a powerful protest movement. The furore has offered an insight into the raw power wielded by the generals. This week, Justice Chaudhry told the supreme court how military intelligence chiefs spent hours trying to pressure him to quit on March 9, before placing him under effective house arrest.

Ms Siddiqa fears her book, which names names and pours cold water on boastful claims, may step on some powerful toes. "Over the past three years a lot of my friends have advised me not to publish this book. They think I have suicidal tendencies."

But Talat Hussain, a retired general and political analyst, said Ms Siddiqa was a "courageous" researcher. "This area has always been considered a sacred cow in our society," he said.

The book will be launched in Islamabad today. The main military spokesman, Major General Waheed Arshad, said he had not yet obtained a copy. "Let me read it and then I'll get back to you," he said.

Backstory

The 650,000-strong military has been at the heart of power since Pakistan was carved from northern India in 1947. Generals seized power in 1958 and have ruled intermittently since. The main intelligence service, the ISI, has consistently meddled in politics. Three-quarters of all army recruits come from Punjab, reflecting a similar imbalance in the country's power structures. The army's reputation for professionalism stretches back to colonial days, but has been eroded by business-related corruption allegations and three wars with India, including the loss of its eastern half, with the independence of Bangladesh in 1971.

Book shines light on Pakistan military's '£10bn empire' | World news | The Guardian

Some lines from the same book -

" In her strongest criticism of Pakistan's military, the author argues that Pakistani military is a giant which has strong political control, economic control, and a very dominant social presence; a military that has over 7% share of the GDP, which controls one-third of heavy manufacturing in the country, which controls 6-7% private sector assets. It has a huge economic presence. It is a constant story of uneven development, between different organizations and institutions. "
 
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Private Enterprises Owned by the Pakistani Army -

As per Colonel E. A. Bohari (retd.), in his article, on January 1999, in the Defense Journal a very brief business profile of the Fauji Foundation would include the following:

Fully-Owned Projects:

· Fauji Sugar Mills, Tando Mohammad Khan

· Fauji Sugar Mills, Khoski

· Fauji Sugar Mills, Sangla Hill

· Fauji Sugarcane Experimental & Seed Multiplication Farm

· Fauji Cereals

· Fauji Corn Complex

· Fauji Polypropylene Products Foundation Gas

Shareholding Projects:

· Fauji Fertilizer Company Limited

· Fauji Oil Terminal and Distribution Company Limited

· Fauji Cement Company Limited

· Mari Gas Company Limited

New Projects:

· Fauji Kabriwala Power Company Limited

· FFC-Jordan Fertilizer Company Limited

Education:

· Colleges 2

· Schools 64

· Scholarships 1, 30, 942

Technical Training:

· Technical Training Centers 9

· Vocational Training Centers 66

· Fauji Institutes of Computer Sciences 2

Medical:

· Hospital 12

· Day Health Centers 24

· Mobile Dispensaries 48

· Static Dispensaries 21

Owen Bennet Jones, in his book Pakistan: Eye of the Storm, asserts that the asset of the Pakistan Army is at nearly $2 billion. Former BBC Correspondent, Jones, has argued that the army’s economic operation were profitable to such an extent because they could obtain both tax breaks and subsidies.

Institutionally, military personnel in Pakistan, as they rise up the ranks, are said to be eligible for cheap plots according to their rank. When Gen. Musharraf took over the reigns of government after deposing Nawaz, in an effort to encourage transparency, had declared his assets. The details were available in the Associated Pakistan Press’ (APP) report filed on 2 November 1999, and are as given below:

· Under construction house in Army Housing Scheme Pt-II, Karachi

· 2000 sq. yards in DHA, Karachi

· 2 x Kanals in Morgah Housing Scheme, Rawalpindi

· 1 and half Kanal in AWT Housing Scheme, Peshawar

· 8 x Marlas in LCCHS, Lahore

· 2 x Square agriculture land at Bahawalpur

· Parent’s house in F7/3, Islamabad

· His daughter’s house in DHA, Karachi

· 1 x Kanal plot in Eastridge Scheme (09)

· 2 x Kanals in Sangar Housing Scheme, Gwadar


These are 1999 figures, current numbers are way higher.
 
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The Fauji Foundation -

Fauji Foundation

The National Logistics Cell (NLC) – the largest transportation company in Pakistan and in Asia with a fleet of 16,89 vehicles (in 2005); 7,279 people worked out of which 2,549 were uniformed.
The net worth of NLC in 2000-2001 was (US$ 68.356 million) it’s estimated to be around US$200+ million in 2009.

Frontieir Works Organization (FWO)

Remember the flyover which collapsed in Karachi recently? It was made by FWO …


Foundation Gas (fully-owned by Fauji Foundation)
Fauji Corn Complex
Fauji Security Services
Fauji Sugar Mills
Overseas Employment Services
Fauji Foundation Experimental & Seed Multiplication Farm
Mari Gas Company Ltd. (Associated Company)
Fauji Cement Company Ltd.
Fauji Fertilizers Bin Qasim Ltd.
Securities (PVT) Ltd.
Fauji Kabirwala Power Company Ltd.
Fauji Oil Terminal & Distribution Company Ltd.
Foundation University
Pakistan Maroc Phosphere, S.A
Shaheen Foundation (SF)
The Pakistan Air Force opened it’s own welfare foundation in 1977 under the Charitable Endowment Act 1890 with the money of Rs.5 million (US $86,000).
Following are the AWT Projects controlled by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff,
Askari Stud Farms (two farms)
Askari Farms (two farms)
Askari Welfare Rice Mill
Askari Welfare Sugar Mill
Askari Fish Mill
Askari Cement (two plants)
Askari Welfare Pharmaceutical Project
Army Welfare Shoe Project
Army Welfare Woollen Mill
Army Welfare Hosiery Unit
Travel agencies (three different agencies)
AWT Commercial Plazas (three buildings)
Askari Aviation
Askari Housing Schemes (six spots)
Askari Commercial Enterprises
Askari Power Ltd.
Askari Guards Ltd.
Askari Information Services
Askari Associate Ltd
Askari Welfare Saving Scheme
Askari General Insurance Company
Askari Leasing Ltd
Askari Commercial Bank
Askari Welfare Commercial Project
Army Welfare Shops (four)
Bahria Foundation
Started operations in 1982 with Rs.3 million and controlled by armed forces.
Shaheen Air International
Shaheen Air Cargo
Shaheen Airport Services
Shaheen Aerotraders
Shaheen Insurance
Shaheen Travel ( three projects)
Shaheen Complex (two projects)
Shaheen Pay TV
FM-100 (radio channel)
Shaheen Systems (Information Tech.)
Shaheen Knitwear

Falah Trading Agency
Bahria Construction
Bahria Travel & Recurring Agency
Bahria Paints
Bahria Deep Sea Fishing
Bahria Complexes
Bahria Town & Housing Schemes (three projects)
Bahria Dredging
Bahria Bakery
Bahria University
Bahria Shipping
Bahria Coastal Services
Bahria Security & System Services
Bahria Catering & Decoration Services
Bahria Farming
Bahria Holding
Bahria Harbor Services
Bahria Ship Breaking
Bahria Diving & Salvage International


Who runs all these ? where are the balance sheets ? where are they getting their finances from ? Where are the profits going ? So many questions remain unanswered. Its not about loving your army but about making them accountable. Many Pakistan have asked these questions but they are soon labelled as Indian/Raw agents and ridiculed in Pakistan which is sad reality.
 
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Private Enterprises Owned by the Pakistani Army -

As per Colonel E. A. Bohari (retd.), in his article, on January 1999, in the Defense Journal a very brief business profile of the Fauji Foundation would include the following:

Fully-Owned Projects:

· Fauji Sugar Mills, Tando Mohammad Khan

· Fauji Sugar Mills, Khoski

· Fauji Sugar Mills, Sangla Hill

· Fauji Sugarcane Experimental & Seed Multiplication Farm

· Fauji Cereals

· Fauji Corn Complex

· Fauji Polypropylene Products Foundation Gas

Shareholding Projects:

· Fauji Fertilizer Company Limited

· Fauji Oil Terminal and Distribution Company Limited

· Fauji Cement Company Limited

· Mari Gas Company Limited

New Projects:

· Fauji Kabriwala Power Company Limited

· FFC-Jordan Fertilizer Company Limited

Education:

· Colleges 2

· Schools 64

· Scholarships 1, 30, 942

Technical Training:

· Technical Training Centers 9

· Vocational Training Centers 66

· Fauji Institutes of Computer Sciences 2

Medical:

· Hospital 12

· Day Health Centers 24

· Mobile Dispensaries 48

· Static Dispensaries 21

Owen Bennet Jones, in his book Pakistan: Eye of the Storm, asserts that the asset of the Pakistan Army is at nearly $2 billion. Former BBC Correspondent, Jones, has argued that the army’s economic operation were profitable to such an extent because they could obtain both tax breaks and subsidies.

Institutionally, military personnel in Pakistan, as they rise up the ranks, are said to be eligible for cheap plots according to their rank. When Gen. Musharraf took over the reigns of government after deposing Nawaz, in an effort to encourage transparency, had declared his assets. The details were available in the Associated Pakistan Press’ (APP) report filed on 2 November 1999, and are as given below:

· Under construction house in Army Housing Scheme Pt-II, Karachi

· 2000 sq. yards in DHA, Karachi

· 2 x Kanals in Morgah Housing Scheme, Rawalpindi

· 1 and half Kanal in AWT Housing Scheme, Peshawar

· 8 x Marlas in LCCHS, Lahore

· 2 x Square agriculture land at Bahawalpur

· Parent’s house in F7/3, Islamabad

· His daughter’s house in DHA, Karachi

· 1 x Kanal plot in Eastridge Scheme (09)

· 2 x Kanals in Sangar Housing Scheme, Gwadar


These are 1999 figures, current numbers are way higher.

SO wht btw u missed NLC .

where do u think they are generating money to power military projects.And all these are under Army Welfare Trust.

these project are creating thousands of job opportunity for the civilians as well as retired army officials.and i dont think they are any problem to us . and Calling it Private Enterprises is wrong coz Army is
Public institution and all this industry cums under Government of Pakistan.
 
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SO wht btw u missed NLC .

where do u think they are generating money to power military projects.And all these are under Army Welfare Trust.

these project are creating thousands of job opportunity for the civilians as well as retired army officials.and i dont think they are any problem to us . and Calling it Private Enterprises is wrong coz Army is
Public institution and all this industry cums under Government of Pakistan.

I included NLC in my second post. Yes Im sure they create jobs but can you show tell me what their revenue/profit was from last year ? Or how they pay their pensions or benefits ? For example all Indian government organizations that indulge in any form of transactions with the public are required to file an yearly balance sheet and show all their books just like how the Indian Railways or any other government organizations does. Can the same be said about the Fauji foundation ? The Army is a public institution in theory but is that actually happening in Pakistan ? when did it become the Army's responsibility to create civilian jobs ? Even the GOP has no access to the books of these organizations so its anyone guess how they are run internally.
 
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Its amazing to see individuals who have not even stepped inside Pakistan passing such mighty judgments on our institutions. The article flies in the face of the polls that have been conducted by neutral foreign sources and show that despite the negative PR some are trying to give to the Army, it has been and remains one of the most popular institutions in the country.

Blain, few people on this forum who have no idea about things, post as if they are expert on the topic they are posting about.

So whatever you post, it is useless as they are gonna have the same writings about Pakistan as their satisfaction for being on this forum is to post and see anti-Pakistan, anti-PA stuff, be it giving the name of aid to fighters bought from US, or some other hallucination with regard to Pakistan.

People have no idea how AWT works, how DHA works and that whatever Army officers get after retirement, they pay for it, through out from their salaries during their service, certain amount is cut which goes into these development projects for homes which they get after their retirement, and even after retirement they have to pay for the remaining amount, people have no idea that people with huge lands come begging to DHA to take their land without even taking a penny from the DHA and ask them to develop it and why they do that, well that i had explained in one of my pots way back for now in no mood to repeat that as it will be having no impact on the thinking of the people, reason being they come with specific agenda on their minds, people take names of AWT & Fauji Foundation forgetting how many billions they give back in taxes, how many thousands of retired soldiers they employ whose households run on their jobs and their children get education and the economy has an affect as these same people spend their money too.

People tend to forget that our civilian govts don't care about the people, all they are interested is looting the country, PA with its AWT, Fauji Foundation & DHA is atleast taking care of its retired soldiers so that they don't get wasted as other Pakistanis are being done, and these same organizations generate economic life.

Army is no angels, they are human beings also, they may tend to do corruption also, but not at the scale as our civilian govt does.

Few generals are not the representative of the thousands of officers of the PA, who tend to spend a very tough retirement life to meet their ends meet and live a decent enough life. As you pointed out, people tend to forget that many of the officers get support from their families if they have good family background, which many do have, and even whatever the generals get is not out of the budget, rather it is from the money which these organizations generate, thus even these generals are not getting their luxury life out of tax payers money.

In end, its basically useless to talk to a few people, as they come with their minds closed, with just one thing on mind, and that is to have a good bashing time.
 
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I included NLC in my second post. Yes Im sure they create jobs but can you show tell me what their revenue/profit was from last year ? Or how they pay their pensions or benefits ? For example all Indian government organizations that indulge in any form of transactions with the public are required to file an yearly balance sheet and show all their books just like how the Indian Railways or any other government organizations does. Can the same be said about the Fauji foundation ? The Army is a public institution in theory but is that actually happening in Pakistan ? when did it become the Army's responsibility to create civilian jobs ? Even the GOP has no access to the books of these organizations so its anyone guess how they are run internally.

let me burst your bubble!!!!!
read this
The Audited Financial Statements of Fauji Cement Company

You can easily google Financial Statments of each and every organisation you mentioned above...
 
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desiman, do check up what Fauji Foundation is, it does business through which it employs thousands of retired soldiers and whatever it is generating from these businesses, it expenses it on their welfare by running schools, college, hospitals, scholarships for the children of retired soldiers and other stuff.

And now as for your that from where they get the finances, they are financed not from the Defence Budget, they get their money from own internal sources, through bank loans, and with passage of time as they earn they use that money to start other businesses or expand the current ones.

They all pay their taxes, and as the ones which are public limited companies, their balance sheets are fully published and public has access to it, many of the projects are in partnership with private sector, and as for profits as told, they are used by the army for the welfare of its soldiers a well as other needs are met, thus the burden on budget is reduced.

Many of these projects even don't make money, rather other companies support them for the cause of just to keep people employed.

These organizations have not been a burden on the economy or the govt or the budget, rather it has helped in keeping people employed and contributing in the economic life cycle.
 
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