Ladakh: No 'Deal' was Struck with China

[faithfulguy]

LOL, dont be ridiculous,

I like his posts too, but that does not mean I have to agree with everything, as for him being better than 90% of us that means he is better than 90% of the forum - and as for me, you are no great shakes either, you dont match up to him or most Indian members.

As for Pakistanis not getting personal, first you are fooling yourself if you believe that - look around the forum.

Joe, Cardsharp, CD, Sancho are definitely in the top 5% of this forum. These guys are fair and has logical discussions. I really enjoy the thread between Joe and Cardsharp about 1 year ago about relationships between India and China. Joe is also right on when you compare many Indians that attacked him to Hong Wu

 

[illusion8]

Watch out, your country men in here is going to put you in the same bucket as Hong Wu assess things properly.

, Hongwu is special - no one even the most absurd matches him.

 

[zhangjt]

Joe is very brillant among Indian members. I am afraid of him, to speak frankly. I wish India has no similar clever youths,which would be good news for us Chinese.

Thans for your encouragement.

 

[acid rain]

Joe, Cardsharp, CD, Sancho are definitely in the top 5% of this forum. These guys are fair and has logical discussions. I really enjoy the thread between Joe and Cardsharp about 1 year ago about relationships between India and China. Joe is also right on when you compare many Indians that attacked him to Hong Wu

When did I compare him to hongwu of all people, I wouldnt compare him to any chinese either - the present ones I mean - I dont know who cardsharp is.

 

[acid rain]

Sorry but at this point in time if we are talking about pure conventional warfare and forget about geo-politics etc then i fail to understand what is that makes you believe that we can withstand chinese onslaught?? As said earlier...there infrastructure is good..there infantry is in better shape and modernizing while we are talking...not only they have head start in economic growth but also they have manage to become the second largest economy...there defense industry is way ahead than us...there missile technology is mature and covers entire India while we are years away from Agni5 induction....There NAVY is in better shape than ours...so not sure what is your thought process there...but we might be a difficult foe to beat but in current picture they can beat us...Trust me I would love to proved wrong but on paper i don't see how we are better/equal to them...


Well, let's take your argument on face value...if both of us have obsolete weapon(majority) then how on this earth we are going to push them back with weak infra?? Let's not fool ourselves here....A better economy means more funds for Armed forced....It is estimated that they have around $100 Billion defense budget and if you want to believe that all of this is eaten up in corruption than i can't convince you...



Again...here you are bringing in geo-politics in...however if a war breaks out then which sector will get the higher priority? This is the same argument that Pakistan put in when they want to prove parity with India...This holds good only till the deterrent is there...implies that Chinese will think twice before breaking hostilities with India due to these factors...however if they pass this deterrent then they will fight with India with full might,no??



Look as said...they came into our land(we call it our land, right?)...they came with a specific agenda....they stayed there and if reports are true then forced us for a concession...Now weather this concession could have been achieved by diplomacy or not i am not sure but if i go by reports than they have raised objections earlier but we did not heed...Secondly china can be a threat is no new news for us...We all know that..however we are not preparing ourselves for the worst...not yet...so call it whatever but certainly not a victory...

1. War is not fought in vacuum...is it? why would Geo politics or each others issues with other countries not matter in a conflict is what I fail to understand, are trying to run a comparison between each others head count and kind of weapons and each others economy only? if so then lets do a vs thread leaving out all other factors like international relations, bilateral relations, each others strategic and global interests, each others friends and foes, topography, training, morale etc.

2. I suggest you read up on similar incidents that have happened in the past, leave out 1962 (thats a whole new discussion, and we never intended to fight a war or escalate it then) read up what happened in 1986 - 87 (when IA moved 10 divisions and surrounded intruding chinese troups) or 92 - 93 when IA moved men, artillery, armored brigades, and 3 divisions mostly using heavy lift helis and the road. Of course we lack in infrastructure no denying that but that does not alll mean they'll win over us in that sector.

3. Of course everyone takes into consideration geo politics, you think we will be fighting a major war in isolation? when has that ever happened, when has it happened that two countries have fought a war without other countries getting involved(whatever way it is) or it will not happen in the future??????

4. There are multiple threads going on here about what the chinese achieved or not by this and if you and joe say that they achieved a victory - can you tell me what they intended to achieve and what they achieved and how helpful will this chinese victory be to them? I and all Indian members aree quite eager to know.

 

[faithfulguy]

When did I compare him to hongwu of all people, I wouldnt compare him to any chinese either - the present ones I mean - I dont know who cardsharp is.

You didn't compare Joe to Hongwu. But many of your countrymen did. And the reality is that these are the guys that is most like HongWu.

 

[deckingraj]

I would love to reply....having said that it seems you have missed some of my reply's before....otherwise i believe we both are saying somewhat similar things

1. War is not fought in vacuum...is it? why would Geo politics or each others issues with other countries not matter in a conflict is what I fail to understand, are trying to run a comparison between each others head count and kind of weapons and each others economy only? if so then lets do a vs thread leaving out all other factors like international relations, bilateral relations, each others strategic and global interests, each others friends and foes, topography, training, morale etc.

2. I suggest you read up on similar incidents that have happened in the past, leave out 1962 (thats a whole new discussion, and we never intended to fight a war or escalate it then) read up what happened in 1986 - 87 (when IA moved 10 divisions and surrounded intruding chinese troups) or 92 - 93 when IA moved men, artillery, armored brigades, and 3 divisions mostly using heavy lift helis and the road. Of course we lack in infrastructure no denying that but that does not alll mean they'll win over us in that sector.

3. Of course everyone takes into consideration geo politics, you think we will be fighting a major war in isolation? when has that ever happened, when has it happened that two countries have fought a war without other countries getting involved(whatever way it is) or it will not happen in the future??????

4. There are multiple threads going on here about what the chinese achieved or not by this and if you and joe say that they achieved a victory - can you tell me what they intended to achieve and what they achieved and how helpful will this chinese victory be to them? I and all Indian members aree quite eager to know.

1. You are right...However point being they are better then us in pure Military terms...In case you have objections to this statement then we can discuss it further..

2. Please don't make assumptions about me. I have read about the incident well enough...however keep in mind history is there just to learn lessons and move on...We can't bank on history....so let's leave this point right here...b/w we got the biggest spanking of our life in 62 and let's not hide behind excuses like Civilian leadership was naive and blah blah...history won't change just because we wish it to...
3. Already exaplained...so ignoring...
4. Though i have explained it...yet let me put some more thoughts..

Why it is not a victory for India - Chinese intruded into our land...stay put for 19 days and left...They came in at their will and left like that......not only that, we had to agree to some of their demands before they call it a day...and we are calling it a victory?? Give me a parallel like that in history!!

Why it is not a victory for China - Victory and defeat can't be looked from the prisms of short term....At this stage when China is already involved in border related tensions along with her neighbours(especially Japan) then all they have achieved by this bravado is yet another red faced neighbour...With US already luring India this is IMHO a very bad move on chinese front...

I disagree with you... Naval war with India will result bad for PLAN... yes they do have large number of ship and sub's... but most of them facing Jap, Korean, Phil, Vietnam navy.... simply they can't afford to divert their valuable assets from SCS to IOR.... they don't have capabilities to project power in other regions.... in long run, it depends upon the modernization of IN....

That mean's you have not read what i have written....I agree all this will play while deciding to fight or not...However if(god forbids) war does break out then i fail to understand how come Chinese will not use these assets in a sector where fighting is going on vs a sector where there is nothing?? Keep in mind in today's world you are the one who will have to fend for yourself...US/Japan and anybody who may want to see a Chinese downfall will help you big time but there help will come only in material...Don't fool yourself thinking that someone will jump into a fight just because India is in loggerhead with China...Those days are simply over!!

 

[deckingraj]

I disagree. The Chinese simply don't think like that. Unlike India, they are not muddle headed about this at all. The Chinese see us as being the undeserving gate crashers at their coming of age party. The Chinese have no interest in an Asian or India-China century, they have no interest in sharing a Chinese century with anyone least of all with what they perceive as a weak, poor, all talk but no action nation just because they happen to be a neighbor with a large population & some limited growth abilities. Anyone who thinks that the Chinese see it differently is simply deluding themselves. Your post, well meaning as it is falls into the long tradition of Indians displaying the type of confused thinking that ended with 1962 happening. The Chinese will only respect power but even then, don't confuse it with friendship.

Just one question...whatever you have explained above, is it not true for us as well?? Do we want to have a big powerful China?? I certainly don't want and won't be surprised to have similar views on other side of the border...I don't think there is any scope for us to be on higher moral ground(not saying that you intended to but just making my point clear)

 

[danger007]

I would love to reply....having said that it seems you have missed some of my reply's before....otherwise i believe we both are saying somewhat similar things



1. You are right...However point being they are better then us in pure Military terms...In case you have objections to this statement then we can discuss it further..

2. Please don't make assumptions about me. I have read about the incident well enough...however keep in mind history is there just to learn lessons and move on...We can't bank on history....so let's leave this point right here...b/w we got the biggest spanking of our life in 62 and let's not hide behind excuses like Civilian leadership was naive and blah blah...history won't change just because we wish it to...
3. Already exaplained...so ignoring...
4. Though i have explained it...yet let me put some more thoughts..

Why it is not a victory for India - Chinese intruded into our land...stay put for 19 days and left...They came in at their will and left like that......not only that, we had to agree to some of their demands before they call it a day...and we are calling it a victory?? Give me a parallel like that in history!!

Why it is not a victory for China - Victory and defeat can't be looked from the prisms of short term....At this stage when China is already involved in border related tensions along with her neighbours(especially Japan) then all they have achieved by this bravado is yet another red faced neighbour...With US already luring India this is IMHO a very bad move on chinese front...



That mean's you have not read what i have written....I agree all this will play while deciding to fight or not...However if(god forbids) war does break out then i fail to understand how come Chinese will not use these assets in a sector where fighting is going on vs a sector where there is nothing?? Keep in mind in today's world you are the one who will have to fend for yourself...US/Japan and anybody who may want to see a Chinese downfall will help you big time but there help will come only in material...Don't fool yourself thinking that someone will jump into a fight just because India is in loggerhead with China...Those days are simply over!!

Did i said we will get Aid from US/Japan/ or any other? we have to fight on our own... i am aware of that... they can't move all their assets to some other region... i would agree IN is no where near to challenge them in SCS but not in Indian Ocean region... they got power to project in SCS but don't have power to project in other region... we do have strategic assets in IOR region such as AN chain islands( but these island needs to be modernize lot0..... IN is not Philippine navy... strong enough to defend in our backyard.....

 

[illusion8]

@deckingraj, War never happens among Nuclear powers - what would happen is a minor local conflict which I am quite confident that IA is strong enough to reverse - i think people should come out of the 60's and 70's battle formation wars - these things don's happen among world powers (before anyone trolls - India's getting there and if anyone disagrees than he is a fool).

 

[Bang Galore]

Just one question...whatever you have explained above, is it not true for us as well?? Do we want to have a big powerful China?? I certainly don't want and won't be surprised to have similar views on other side of the border...I don't think there is any scope for us to be on higher moral ground(not saying that you intended to but just making my point clear)

Not true of us at all, atleast I don't think it is. We have a warm, fuzzy idea of a cuddly world, not one where we wield unquestioned power. No higher moral ground wanted ( I loath that idea), just a much safer ground with the muddle headedness. Compare how Indian politicians talk about a Asian century, Indo-Chinese century, a Russia-China-India partnership, a BRICS partnership & then compare it with what the Chinese talk about-the G2 with the U.S. etc. They don't want to share anything with us, at no stage will they ever acknowledge any greatness attributed to India while our politicians do that all the time. There is nothing correct or wrong about the different world visions but that is simply the reality that exists.

 

[Srinivas]

Not true of us at all, atleast I don't think it is. We have a warm, fuzzy idea of a cuddly world, not one where we wield unquestioned power. No higher moral ground wanted ( I loathe that idea), just a much safer ground with the muddle headedness. Compare how Indian politicians talk about a Asian century, Indo-Chinese century, a Russia-China-India partnership, a BRICS partnership & then compare it with what the Chinese talk about-the G2 with the U.S. etc. They don't want to share anything with us, at no stage will they ever acknowledge any greatness attributed to India while our politicians do that all the time. There is nothing correct or wrong about the different world visions but that is simply the reality that exists.

A very correct assesment, Indians should get out of the delusion that India-China can co exist together, India should work closely and if necessary should act like counterweight for the things happening in SCS or East sea.

Chinese are thinking Once the job of SCS and East Sea is over they will come for India.

India should not take Chinese for granted and we have to be ready to take on the challenges of China.

 

[faithfulguy]

Not true of us at all, atleast I don't think it is. We have a warm, fuzzy idea of a cuddly world, not one where we wield unquestioned power. No higher moral ground wanted ( I loathe that idea), just a much safer ground with the muddle headedness. Compare how Indian politicians talk about a Asian century, Indo-Chinese century, a Russia-China-India partnership, a BRICS partnership & then compare it with what the Chinese talk about-the G2 with the U.S. etc. They don't want to share anything with us, at no stage will they ever acknowledge any greatness attributed to India while our politicians do that all the time. There is nothing correct or wrong about the different world visions but that is simply the reality that exists.

Actually, its the US that proposed G2. But China seems to be more focus on the BRICS countries. India, after this latest incident, would most likely join the US lead camp.

 

[deckingraj]

Did i said we will get Aid from US/Japan/ or any other? we have to fight on our own... i am aware of that... they can't move all their assets to some other region... i would agree IN is no where near to challenge them in SCS but not in Indian Ocean region... they got power to project in SCS but don't have power to project in other region... we do have strategic assets in IOR region such as AN chain islands( but these island needs to be modernize lot0..... IN is not Philippine navy... strong enough to defend in our backyard.....

Saying we can defend in our backyard is one thing but doing it is another...Having said that there is lot of subjectivity in here...so i will leave the point...As long as you are in agreement that on paper there assets are better than us then great...i have nothing else to say...it is not necessary that one who is mightier is bound to win...Just one thing...when you say we can at best defend you have already limited the conflict area...your military planners will be forced to plan with this limitation...in short you are already at a disadvantage right from the word go...Anyhow enough said...Peace!

@deckingraj, War never happens among Nuclear powers - what would happen is a minor local conflict which I am quite confident that IA is strong enough to reverse - i think people should come out of the 60's and 70's battle formation wars - these things don's happen among world powers (before anyone trolls - India's getting there and if anyone disagrees than he is a fool).

You are right..but sorry to say when you claim you are confident then you are basically hoping...Now what actually will happen no one can say...All we can discuss is how we match against them on paper...There infra is way better than ours in the border Area...In short they can very easily outnumber us by 3:1....If we take into account a localized conflict then we are even at a greater disadvantage...Even holding our posts would be very difficult....because our logistics are going to be a big issue...Like it or not but our situation viz-a-viz China in a localized conflict is pathetic...Now am i saying things can't improve?? No...but are they improving...well unfortunately...NO!!

Not true of us at all, atleast I don't think it is. We have a warm, fuzzy idea of a cuddly world, not one where we wield unquestioned power. No higher moral ground wanted ( I loathe that idea), just a much safer ground with the muddle headedness. Compare how Indian politicians talk about a Asian century, Indo-Chinese century, a Russia-China-India partnership, a BRICS partnership & then compare it with what the Chinese talk about-the G2 with the U.S. etc. They don't want to share anything with us, at no stage will they ever acknowledge any greatness attributed to India while our politicians do that all the time. There is nothing correct or wrong about the different world visions but that is simply the reality that exists.

buddy that is because we are inferior to them at this stage...When you say India-China century aren't you missing the rest of the lesser countries around you??? You are not missing China because they have arrived...Like it or not you can't miss them...they have beaten us hands down in almost all the areas...this is unfortunately a hard fact!!

 

[deckingraj]

A very correct assesment, Indians should get out of the delusion that India-China can co exist together, India should work closely and if necessary should act like counterweight for the things happening in SCS or East sea.

Chinese are thinking Once the job of SCS and East Sea is over they will come for India.

India should not take Chinese for granted and we have to be ready to take on the challenges of China.

Call it delusion or whatever but do we have any other choice?? Irrespective of what China thinks we still should prepare ourselves for any eventuality...so there is nothing new.....b/w when you say we should act like a counterweight then you will have no choice but to act like a proxy....I don't even want to mention the fate of a proxy...I believe all we need is will and a stable Govt(cong/bjp anybody but with majority), rest we have everything to put things in place...