Ladakh: No 'Deal' was Struck with China

[illusion8]

China and India can't be buddies even if the borders are demarcated. What I wrote in other thread -

China and India has not only the sticky border issue but also the issue about China supporting Pakistan, the question about string of pearls not to mention the long term conflict(not necessarily military) when they vie for resources and political influence globally.

You are right, also the chinese are too serious about their upcoming super power tag and will not accept any challengers to it.

 

[Goodbye!]

Let's become prepared first, then worry about forever preparing syndrome. We have not even taken baby steps yet. We lack night vision, bulletproof jackets, helmets, indigenous guns, etc. Let's catch up to the present, maintain it, incorporate surperior training methods, etc. Once that is done, the focus and emphasis should be optimally placed on R&D and manufacuring in the defence and space fields.

If only gizmos won you wars then please explain how China beat USA or for that matter how Vietnam beat USA?

A lot depends on the people involved, their tactics, the decisions they take and unforeseen luck or bad luck. Until we fight a war we will continue to believe that Chinese Army has shiny tanks and polished missiles and a military that will not crumble under stress. Lets not shy away from putting those fixated ideas to test, should the need arise. If a war is thrust on you, like the recent jibe, will you wait till you have indigenous planes? Will you drive only when you own a ferrari? You are lost in assuring yourself an undue advantage when on the other hand you go to war with what you have, not what you want to have.

 

[Bang Galore]

The Chinese can indeed be our close buddies - the day after the border is demarcated and mutually agreed upon.

We have no inherent conflict with China like we do with Pakistan.

I disagree. The Chinese simply don't think like that. Unlike India, they are not muddle headed about this at all. The Chinese see us as being the undeserving gate crashers at their coming of age party. The Chinese have no interest in an Asian or India-China century, they have no interest in sharing a Chinese century with anyone least of all with what they perceive as a weak, poor, all talk but no action nation just because they happen to be a neighbor with a large population & some limited growth abilities. Anyone who thinks that the Chinese see it differently is simply deluding themselves. Your post, well meaning as it is falls into the long tradition of Indians displaying the type of confused thinking that ended with 1962 happening. The Chinese will only respect power but even then, don't confuse it with friendship.

 

[Bang Galore]

I don't think anything will change, I suspect the Chinese know that too. Unfortunately, in a month or two this incident will have been forgotten.

You maybe well be right. We all do have a cynical approach to how Indian leaders have dealt with these issues. However I still see this as being qualitatively different from other incidents that have happened. I believe that no one will forget this in a hurry, that this will be etched into the minds of people in power for a long time. Even if it remains for a fairly short period, I believe the message would still have served some purpose. We will have to wait & see about that.

 

[Contrarian]

My vision of India is not one in which India is not powerful.

Friendship or not with any nation is independent of India being powerful. India shall have a strong military capable of defending against any nation including the USA.

Only with that we can have friendship with China should they want it to. Unlike the others I dont believe that having friendship with China means neglecting our military and spending those monies elsewhere.

 

[illusion8]

I disagree. The Chinese simply don't think like that. Unlike India, they are not muddle headed about this at all. The Chinese see us as being the undeserving gate crashers at their coming of age party. The Chinese have no interest in an Asian or India-China century, they have no interest in sharing a Chinese century with anyone least of all with what they perceive as a weak, poor, all talk but no action nation just because they happen to be a neighbor with a large population & some limited growth abilities. Anyone who thinks that the Chinese see it differently is simply deluding themselves. Your post, well meaning as it is falls into the long tradition of Indians displaying the type of confused thinking that ended with 1962 happening. The Chinese will only respect power but even then, don't confuse it with friendship.

Nice post.

My vision of India is not one in which India is not powerful.

Friendship or not with any nation is independent of India being powerful. India shall have a strong military capable of defending against any nation including the USA.

Only with that we can have friendship with China should they want it to. Unlike the others I dont believe that having friendship with China means neglecting our military and spending those monies elsewhere.

The Chinese I fear don't understand friendship - they are not suckers for human relations - the CCP has a set agenda for this century and they go about their job without letting emotions interject both in their rule over their people or in international relations. There's nothing called friendship or good relations - there's only interests for them.

 

[abhishekayyagari]

hi i am posting a classfied and stunning info on isro semi cryo engine development.with ukraine and how usa is again trying to play fowl with ukraine

posting this in indian space capabilities thread

hi i am posting a classfied and stunning info on
isro semi cryo engine development.with ukraine
and how usa is again trying to play fowl with
ukraine
posting this in indian space capabilities thread

 

[deckingraj]

It wasn't an overreaction but an underreaction because I was mindful of his age, his knowledge base and his seniority here. It was in summation to all his posts and his replies on this thread, the overall image he paints is that the Chinese dictated to us, got their way with us and if escalation happens India will not only lose but will lose badly in both men and land - that is ridiculous from any stretch of imagination other than if you are a chini fanboi that floats or the numerous cheerleaders that float around on this forum.

Sorry but at this point in time if we are talking about pure conventional warfare and forget about geo-politics etc then i fail to understand what is that makes you believe that we can withstand chinese onslaught?? As said earlier...there infrastructure is good..there infantry is in better shape and modernizing while we are talking...not only they have head start in economic growth but also they have manage to become the second largest economy...there defense industry is way ahead than us...there missile technology is mature and covers entire India while we are years away from Agni5 induction....There NAVY is in better shape than ours...so not sure what is your thought process there...but we might be a difficult foe to beat but in current picture they can beat us...Trust me I would love to proved wrong but on paper i don't see how we are better/equal to them...

Indias infrastrure is quite weak in comparision to the chinese and our weapons are not the most modern and up to date but so are the chinese, 70% of their tanks, fighters and weapons are obsolete and of the 70's and the 80's era. The most potent jet the J 10 is a copy of the 80's F16.

Well, let's take your argument on face value...if both of us have obsolete weapon(majority) then how on this earth we are going to push them back with weak infra?? Let's not fool ourselves here....A better economy means more funds for Armed forced....It is estimated that they have around $100 Billion defense budget and if you want to believe that all of this is eaten up in corruption than i can't convince you...

The chinese can deploy about 30 divisions in Ladakh in a months time, but Joe hasn't figured out that they cannot pull out troops from the rest of their fronts against the Japanese, Russians, Taiwanese, thee Veits etc to challenge India. Both airforces and our navies can hold up against each other if the need arises.

Again...here you are bringing in geo-politics in...however if a war breaks out then which sector will get the higher priority? This is the same argument that Pakistan put in when they want to prove parity with India...This holds good only till the deterrent is there...implies that Chinese will think twice before breaking hostilities with India due to these factors...however if they pass this deterrent then they will fight with India with full might,no??

Diplomatically we are on higher ground against a bully. Their retreat was obviously a victory in the sense that they had to make such an effort to get such a small concession which could have been diplomatically acheived, the furore their intrusion created and the aftermath that our center now views the chinese as enemies and watches their every move is victory enough for us because the realists in India wanted china to give our Govt a wake up call and their wake up call was stupid and a minor irritant was victory enogh.

Look as said...they came into our land(we call it our land, right?)...they came with a specific agenda....they stayed there and if reports are true then forced us for a concession...Now weather this concession could have been achieved by diplomacy or not i am not sure but if i go by reports than they have raised objections earlier but we did not heed...Secondly china can be a threat is no new news for us...We all know that..however we are not preparing ourselves for the worst...not yet...so call it whatever but certainly not a victory...

 

[danger007]

Sorry but at this point in time if we are talking about pure conventional warfare and forget about geo-politics etc then i fail to understand what is that makes you believe that we can withstand chinese onslaught?? As said earlier...there infrastructure is good..there infantry is in better shape and modernizing while we are talking...not only they have head start in economic growth but also they have manage to become the second largest economy...there defense industry is way ahead than us...there missile technology is mature and covers entire India while we are years away from Agni5 induction....There NAVY is in better shape than ours...so not sure what is your thought process there...but we might be a difficult foe to beat but in current picture they can beat us...Trust me I would love to proved wrong but on paper i don't see how we are better/equal to them...


Well, let's take your argument on face value...if both of us have obsolete weapon(majority) then how on this earth we are going to push them back with weak infra?? Let's not fool ourselves here....A better economy means more funds for Armed forced....It is estimated that they have around $100 Billion defense budget and if you want to believe that all of this is eaten up in corruption than i can't convince you...



Again...here you are bringing in geo-politics in...however if a war breaks out then which sector will get the higher priority? This is the same argument that Pakistan put in when they want to prove parity with India...This holds good only till the deterrent is there...implies that Chinese will think twice before breaking hostilities with India due to these factors...however if they pass this deterrent then they will fight with India with full might,no??



Look as said...they came into our land(we call it our land, right?)...they came with a specific agenda....they stayed there and if reports are true then forced us for a concession...Now weather this concession could have been achieved by diplomacy or not i am not sure but if i go by reports than they have raised objections earlier but we did not heed...Secondly china can be a threat is no new news for us...We all know that..however we are not preparing ourselves for the worst...not yet...so call it whatever but certainly not a victory...

I disagree with you... Naval war with India will result bad for PLAN... yes they do have large number of ship and sub's... but most of them facing Jap, Korean, Phil, Vietnam navy.... simply they can't afford to divert their valuable assets from SCS to IOR.... they don't have capabilities to project power in other regions.... in long run, it depends upon the modernization of IN....

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sorry but at this point in time if we are talking about pure conventional warfare and forget about geo-politics etc then i fail to understand what is that makes you believe that we can withstand chinese onslaught?? As said earlier...there infrastructure is good..there infantry is in better shape and modernizing while we are talking...not only they have head start in economic growth but also they have manage to become the second largest economy...there defense industry is way ahead than us...there missile technology is mature and covers entire India while we are years away from Agni5 induction....There NAVY is in better shape than ours...so not sure what is your thought process there...but we might be a difficult foe to beat but in current picture they can beat us...Trust me I would love to proved wrong but on paper i don't see how we are better/equal to them...


Well, let's take your argument on face value...if both of us have obsolete weapon(majority) then how on this earth we are going to push them back with weak infra?? Let's not fool ourselves here....A better economy means more funds for Armed forced....It is estimated that they have around $100 Billion defense budget and if you want to believe that all of this is eaten up in corruption than i can't convince you...



Again...here you are bringing in geo-politics in...however if a war breaks out then which sector will get the higher priority? This is the same argument that Pakistan put in when they want to prove parity with India...This holds good only till the deterrent is there...implies that Chinese will think twice before breaking hostilities with India due to these factors...however if they pass this deterrent then they will fight with India with full might,no??



Look as said...they came into our land(we call it our land, right?)...they came with a specific agenda....they stayed there and if reports are true then forced us for a concession...Now weather this concession could have been achieved by diplomacy or not i am not sure but if i go by reports than they have raised objections earlier but we did not heed...Secondly china can be a threat is no new news for us...We all know that..however we are not preparing ourselves for the worst...not yet...so call it whatever but certainly not a victory...

Very well argued.

Compliments.

 

[illusion8]

If only gizmos won you wars then please explain how China beat USA or for that matter how Vietnam beat USA?

A lot depends on the people involved, their tactics, the decisions they take and unforeseen luck or bad luck. Until we fight a war we will continue to believe that Chinese Army has shiny tanks and polished missiles and a military that will not crumble under stress. Lets not shy away from putting those fixated ideas to test, should the need arise. If a war is thrust on you, like the recent jibe, will you wait till you have indigenous planes? Will you drive only when you own a ferrari? You are lost in assuring yourself an undue advantage when on the other hand you go to war with what you have, not what you want to have.

Nice post we are not the world's 4th biggest Military power for nothing, the Chinese do have an advantage over us but not a decisive one.

 

[zhangjt]

What happened was that China tried to pull a fast one. They thought ……What does that mean? Does it mean that we could completely defeat China in war? No. But it means that we can make it completely pointless for them to go to war against us. It means that we can make them pay a heavy price, and that any victory they achieve will be pyrrhic. And our negotiators must have informed them of our stance, that if the intruders did not go back, we are prepared to pay the price of evicting them.

.

Some Indian friends hold a very proud opinion towards their motherland. I am often surprised by their overwhelming pride.But the above is very brillant. I agree with sucn analysis.

China has no will to declare war to India. India is China's second-rate adversary. Jap/South China sea/Korea/Taiwan/USA， China has so many questions to deal with besides domestic questions.
As a second-rate power with too much fat (the real figure of China) ,China has no enough energy to fight against India,geographical factors inclued.

Due to cultural factor and race factor， it is natural that China have an advantage over India during normal time, opposite to the common views of Inidans'. But it is also very difficult for China to turn his power to be actual threat to India.

 

[faithfulguy]

I am glad to see that there is a convergence between the Internet Hindu and the Internet Muslim. Now that which was earlier Internet Pakistani has been adopted by Indian fanboys of the crassest sort, when they run out of arguments - LOL.



Putting down the IA and the Indian nation as weak kids? Merely by saying that the Chinese defence preparedness is superior?

I wonder which is more pathetic, a voice of reason callng for caution and restraint, or this kind of discordant bazaar bamboozling.

By that yardstick, what you would have said about General (later, Field Marshal) Manekshaw's insistence on waiting for proper planning, deployment and building up of resources, between May 1971 and October 1971, boggles the imagination.



How else would you describe naive idiots who depend on TV talk shows for their knowledge of military strategy and doctrine?



Would it be rude to describe your comment as premature ejaculation?

At the centre, between 1962 and today, there was time to do the following:

1. Fortified critical junctures, as we constantly fail to do, even when slapped across the face: defended against incursions through the Bailey Trail in future, to avoid a repetition of Akhtar Malik followed by Eftekhar's attacks on the Chhamb Chicken's Neck;
2. Created, trained and equipped proper mountain divisions, not the plains divisions without armour that we think is a proper substitute for a mountain-fighting force;
3. Updated and enhanced our deliverable fire-power at all levels from the section upwards, and especially on portable tubed artillery for mountain warfare;
4. Created a range of deterrent tactical nuclear devices for use under published conditions of warfare, ie, loss of territory, loss of manpower, or the like, and ensured that China is well aware of the red lines;
5. Provided tactical strike air power and theatre level strike air power directed at PLA logistics capabilities in Tibet, and cruise missiles dedicated to every landing strip in Tibet and the hinterland;
6. Build a proper roadway infrastructure both in Ladakh and in Arunachal;
7. Push high-speed high-volume transit systems along the river valleys in Arunachal, ensuring that PLA levels of logistics capability are equalled or exceeded;
8. Built redundant - even triple- or quadruple-redundant railways systems to ensure robust logistics networks to the battlefield rear echelons;
9. Trained the meagre citizenry in the two threatened areas to support special forces operations by the Indian Army;
10. Strengthened alternative battlefields, both along the northern boundaries as well as elsewhere, and leveraged our salient sea-power, to equalise the odds;
11. Created a stand-off capability for delivery of strategic nuclear weapons to all the main populated centres of China;
12. Taken bold policy steps to solve the problem with the minimum loss of territory, to allow these issues to be removed, and the real issues - Tibet, Xinjiang, internal democracy in China - to be addressed;
13. Activated the Subramanian Committee report and put the military in charge of the higher direction of war;
14. Built active and robust ties with Myanmar, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia, Japan and the US, not when the Chinese confront us and there is an international furore, but when things are at their best, as has happened several times in the past;

Since none of you know the vital difference that these steps would have made, if taken in time, decades ago, you keep jumping up and down and insisting on dick measuring contests with the likes of Hong Wu. None of the intelligent Chinese commentators are active on this thread. Probably because they are trying to recover from having laughed themselves into hiccups reading some of the more stupid posts in the thread.

Before making silly remarks about drinking and Malleswaram, ensure that you come to the discussion with some minimum knowledge of what you are talking about.

Very good assessment. Before India goes to war, it must know its own chance of success. But many of your nationality do not, which is sad. That is why your comparison of them with Hong Wu is appropriate as they are all gun ho about war. You should run for office in India and hopefully, you don't have too many of the Indian PDF members in your district.

 

[faithfulguy]

I have had enough of tolerating posturing amateurs with simply no idea of what they are talking about. Secondly, this has been discussed at length between Cap'n Popeye, Cardsharp and myself months - years ago. Read that exchange before you shoot your mouth off. As far as the Hong Wus of the forum are concerned, I have never concealed the fact that I consider him to be nothing more than your Chinese equivalent.

Watch out, your country men in here is going to put you in the same bucket as Hong Wu assess things properly.

 

[illusion8]

Some Indian friends hold a very proud opinion towards their motherland. I am often surprised by their overwhelming pride.But the above is very brillant. I agree with sucn analysis.

China has no will to declare war to India. India is China's second-rate adversary. Jap/South China sea/Korea/Taiwan/USA， China has so many questions to deal with besides domestic questions.
As a second-rate power with too much fat (the real figure of China) ,China has no enough energy to fight against India,geographical factors inclued.

Due to cultural factor and race factor， it is natural that China have an advantage over India during normal time, opposite to the common views of Inidans'. But it is also very difficult for China to turn his power to be actual threat to India.

Welcome to the forum and an excellent post to start with.

As to being proud of our motherland - of course we are.