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KSA & UAE - Submarine Options

Khafee said:
Over the last few years KSA and the UAE Navies have been focusing on fleet renewal and upgrading capabilities, in particular ASW.

Now as any student of naval warfare knows that a sub is not only an offensive platform, but a deterrent too.

I had totally forgotten about this, until @zaravn brought up this topic. What I would like to see, from respected forum members on this thread, is NOT shots in the dark, but proper options. i.e. when you suggest a platform give details of its specs, and it's pros, and cons.

Thank You

http://www.govconwire.com/2014/02/s...chille-fulfaro-comments/#sthash.jXvRg3Ad.dpuf

@Penguin @Zarvan @The Eagle @Fenrir and others
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tag Sir. Though I am not expert in such subject at all but still being a reader of current development and merely creating a point that from we can go ahead with discussion. Merely for the reference and contention to discuss the threat as per current development, we have to keep in mind that Iran is operating Kilo Class Russian subs.

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UAE Subs Option: In my opinion, we know that UAE enjoys good relations with France and current Scorpene Subs are well reputed and for the same, we can see the Australian contract with French Manufacturer and the same road for UAE. Also going the same road, it will be easy to call it net-centric w.r.t. integration and close communication. Furthermore, the surface fleet is mostly from France.

The Baynunah class are corvettes for the United Arab Emirates Navy. The lead ship is named after the Baynunah region in Abu Dhabi. Six ships are planned for this class. Sea trials are currently underway. Platform and combat systems trials are expected to continue through 2011, after which time the lead ship will be delivered to the UAE Navy.[3]


Scorpene Subs

The Scorpène class of ships has four subtypes:[5] the CM-2000 conventional diesel-electric version, the AM-2000 AIP derivative, the downsized CA-2000 coastal submarine, and the enlarged S-BR for the Brazilian Navy, without AIP.[6]

The Chilean and Malaysian boats are fitted with the TSM 2233 Mk 2 sonar. The class can also be fitted with an 'S-Cube' sonar suite from Thales.[7]


Royal Malaysian Navy's Scorpéne-class submarine KD Tunku Abdul Rahman
Class overview
Name: Scorpène class
Builders:
Operators:
Preceded by: Agosta class
Subclasses:
Cost: US$450 million
Building: 4
Planned: 19
Completed: 4
Cancelled: 4
General characteristics
Type: Submarine
Displacement:
  • 1,565 tonnes (1,725 short tons) (CM-2000)
  • 1,870 tonnes (2,060 short tons) (AM-2000)
  • 2,000 tonnes (2,200 short tons) (S-BR)[1]
Length:
  • 61.7 m (202 ft) (CM-2000)
  • 70 m (230 ft) (AM-2000)
  • 75 metres (246 ft) (S-BR)[1]
Beam: 6.2 m (20 ft)
Draught: 5.4 m (18 ft)
Draft: 5.8 m (19 ft)
Propulsion:
Speed:
  • 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph) (submerged)
  • 12 kn (22 km/h; 14 mph) (surfaced)
Range:
  • 6,500 nmi (12,000 km) at 8 kn (15 km/h; 9.2 mph) (surfaced)
  • 550 nmi (1,020 km; 630 mi) at 5 kn (9.3 km/h; 5.8 mph) (submerged)
Endurance:
  • 40 days (compact)
  • 50 days (normal)
  • 50+21 days (AIP)
Test depth: >350 metres (1,150 ft)[2]
Complement: 31
Armament: 6 x 533 mm (21 in) torpedo tubes for 18 Whitehead Alenia Sistemi SubacqueiBlack Shark heavyweight torpedoes or SM.39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, 30 mines in place of torpedoes

b4795ae078b6a6d24ba0150255c813f4.jpg


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KSA Option: So far IMO, German Class 212, Italian Todaro class could be strong contender for KSA Sub fleet. I read somewhere that Italian were more confident to have contract in this subject for KSA as well as Germany would be offering the same for KSA sub fleet. It is to be kept in mind that Germany has already lost to DCNS France in India and Australian contracts so would be more offering in-case KSA goes for such.

The German Type 212 class, also Italian Todaro class,[6] is a highly advanced design of non-nuclear submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG (HDW) for the German and Italian navies. It features diesel propulsion and an additional air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using Siemens proton exchange membrane (PEM) compressed hydrogen fuel cells. The submarines can operate at high speed on diesel power or switch to the AIP system for silent slow cruising, staying submerged for up to three weeks without surfacing and with little exhaust heat. The system is also said to be vibration-free, extremely quiet and virtually undetectable.


U-34 underway
Class overview
Builders: Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) - Fincantieri SpA
Operators:
Preceded by: Type 206 submarine, Sauro class submarine
Cost: 371 million Euros
In service: 2002
In commission: 2005
Planned: 14
Completed: 10
Active: 8
General characteristics
Displacement:
  • 1,524 tonnes (1,500 long tons) surfaced
  • 1,830 tonnes (1,800 long tons) submerged
Length:
  • 56 metres (183 ft 9 in)
  • 57.20 metres (187 ft 8 in) (2nd batch)
Beam: 6.80 metres (22 ft 4 in)
Draught: 6.40 metres (21 ft 0 in)
Decks: 2
Installed power: 1 x MTU-396 16V (2,150 kW); 1 x Siemens Permasyn electric motor Type FR6439-3900KW (2,850 kW)
Propulsion:
Speed:
  • 12 knots (22 km/h; 14 mph) surfaced
  • 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph) submerged[3]
Range: 8,000 nautical miles (15,000 km; 9,200 mi) at 8 knots (15 km/h; 9.2 mph)
Endurance: 3 weeks without snorkeling, 12 weeks overall
Test depth:
  • 250 metres (820 ft)
  • crush depth over 700 m (2,296 ft)[4]
Complement: 5 officers, 22 men
Sensors and
processing systems: CSU 90 (DBQS-40FTC), Sonar: ISUS90-20, Radar: Kelvin Hughes Type 1007 I-band nav.,
Electronic warfare
& decoys: EADS FL 1800U suite
Armament: 6 x 533 millimetres (21 in) torpedo tubes (in 2 forward pointing groups of 3) with 13[5] DM2A4, Black Shark Torpedo, IDAS missiles and 24 external naval mines (optional)

type+212+cut+out.jpg




Also, German Type-209.... (AIP can be fitted)

The Type 209 is a class of diesel-electric attack submarine developed exclusively for export by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft of Germany. The original variant (Type 209/1100) was designed in the late 1960s. Despite not being operated by the German Navy, five variants of the class (209/1100, 209/1200, 209/1300, 209/1400 and 209/1500) have been successfully exported to 13 countries, with 61 submarines being built and commissioned between 1971 and 2008.


S41 (861), a Type 209/1400 submarine of the Egyptian Navy, during sea trials.
Class overview
Builders:
Operators: See below
Preceded by: Type 206 submarine
Succeeded by: Type 214 submarine
In commission: 1971-present
Planned: 64
Completed: 61
Cancelled: 3
Active: 59
Laid up: 2
General characteristics
Type: Type 209/1500 submarine
Displacement: 1,810 tonnes (1,780 long tons) submerged
Length: 64.4 metres (211 ft)
Beam: 6.5 metres (21 ft)
Draft: 6.2 metres (20 ft)
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, 4 diesels, 1 shaft, 6100 shp
Speed:
  • 11.5 knots (21 km/h), surfaced;
  • 22.5 knots (42 km/h), submerged
Range:
  • 11000 Nautical miles (nmi) at 10 knots, surfaced,
  • (20,000 km at 20 km/h);
  • 8,000 nmi at 10 knots, snorkeling,
  • (15,000 km at 20 km/h);
  • 400 nmi at 4 knots, submerged
  • (740 km at 7 km/h)
Endurance: 50 days
Test depth: 500 metres (1,600 ft)
Complement: 36
Armament:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We can also consider the both offerings or the manufacturers for either countries in-case of any interest.

On other hand, if geo-politics takes a drastic change and diversion of sources to be kept in mind, then one may have a look at Chinese inventory for possible interest but for the moment, the same highly unlikely to happen hence, quoting for the reference only. These kind of inductions, IMO, are based strongly on relations with countries and the trust of support/supply in high-times that both countries would be aware of their relations and foreign policies.
 
Penguin said:
The Persian Gulf only has a (average) depth of 35-50m. Not great submarine territory. So any KSA and UAE submarines would better be stationed/used in the Arabian Sea
Click to expand...

Did you forget the fact that KSA has the longest borders (2000 km almost) along the Red Sea - one of the most strategic seas in the world and one of the most busy traffic routes? The gateway to the Mediterranean Sea next door and also the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean.

The Red Sea has a length of 2,250 km, max. width of 355 km, an average depth of 490 m and a max depth of 2,211 m. So it is not a shallow sea or comparable to the Gulf.

Also UAE has direct access to the Sea of Oman.

HRK said:
The only option which can serve not only today's need but FUTURE NEEDS as well ....

KSS-III Changbogo-I submarine
View attachment 372053
View attachment 372054

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/kss-3-specs.htm

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...bogo-iii-heavy-diesel-electric-submarine.html
Click to expand...

That's an very interesting option. However would the South Koreans be willing to sell and would they offer (sometime in the future) any JV's and ToT?
 
Last edited:
HRK said:
Its South Korean ....
Click to expand...

My blunder. Well, the same question stands.

Speaking about the Chinese, would they not be able to offer something?

1472823293.jpg

KSA
Fri, 02 Sep 2016
Saudi Arabia, China on talks about submarine projects
Saudi Deputy Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman Bin Abdulaziz, who also acts as Defence Minister, held talks with Chinese Defence Minister General Chang Wanquan on 31/8/16 in Beijing. He is said to have discussed with General Wanquan the possibility of the Saudi General Organization for Military Industries (GOMI) taking part in a project to build a type of a Chinese attack submarine with a Chinese

- See more at: http://www.tacticalreport.com/view_...-submarine-projects/5125#sthash.OUXeZKyS.dpuf


/ ASIAN DEFENSE NEWS SAUDI ARABIA , SUBMARINE , UAE


ABU DHABI: There is a growing market for submarines in the Middle East, with the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia both having expressed their intention to purchase them, assuming a threat perception in the region.

According to Achille Fulfaro, Middle East naval executive for Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri and general manager of Etihad Ship Building, these deals could come through “in the near future,” and the two military powers of the have expressed interest in the acquisition of small to medium submarines.

The submarine threat was deemed to be high, so a deterrent anti-submarine vessel has already been acquired by the UAE navy. Fulfaro said: “One of the critical issues of the region is the anti-submarine issue and this is the reason why we delivered to the UAE Navy a highly developed anti-submarine warfare vessel last year.”

He expected discussion to proceed to the acquisitions of submarines, next. He said: “We assume that countries like Saudi Arabia and the UAE, in the near future, will start with deep discussions regarding their submarine fleet.”

Describing these discussions as “very sensitive”, he said: “We need to create in the country specific skills and know how to manage such an important fleet,”.

UAE and Saudi government representatives could not be contacted for their comments at the moment, though UAE Naval Commander Rear Adm. Ibrahim al-Musharrakh had said last year the navy wants submarines to combat threats.

Speaking at the Gulf Naval Commanders’ Conference in Abu Dhabi last November, Musharrakh had said: “There are many different options for combating the threat of submarines in the region, for building the capacity and the capability to acquire submarines is something that is still under process and will take a long time. What we need is something within reach that we can use to counter the threat now; in the long term, you will probably see naval forces in the region acquiring submarines.”

It was in November itself that the German Bild newspaper had quoted German government sources in saying that Saudi Arabia wanted to buy five German submarines and more than two dozen more in the future. It also talked about German-made Type 209 submarines, and the cost was estimated at $3.4 billion.

Fulfaro said the requirement is for submarines in the 300-1,000 metric tons region.

http://www.asian-defence.net/2014/02/uae-saudi-arabia-want-to-get-submarines.html
 
Khafee said:
The point of this thread is to look at platforms and what they offer, not weather one should have them or not.
Click to expand...
Germany is not a partner which Saudi will have much faith in long term neither is the German parliament going to make any deals easy to pass through parliament. Sweden is not a reliable partner either, with its ups and downs on arm deals.
France is a partner that will deliver what you pay for, even though the cost is quite exorbitant. China would also deal with Saudi Arabia. Japan would be another nation that has the requisite technology and would be amicable to selling to Saudi Arabia.
Having gotten an idea of the options available, albeit crude in nature, the filtering has to be done according to parameters which include price, compatibility, and purpose.
Price will not be an issue if KSA becomes serious about pursuing an interest in an underwater fleet. The main issues shall be compatibility with the naval fleet at large. The purpose, for all intents would require a sub with a long range and endurance which any the nations could provide.
The list would thus be the Sorya class, the scorpene class, the Type 20, and if one stretches the S 80. Looking at each of them in detail is not really necessary as all are up to par to the role that is required of them, rather the navy of KSA needs to be examined to see which of these is compatible with the fleet that Saudi has at the moment. Being a fleet influenced strongly by France, and the USA a western variant would be preferable.
On the basis of this assumption, two submarines stand out, the Sorya and the Scorpene class.
@Khafee I went for a pragmatic approach rather then study each submarine separately because most have went through the Australian tests and their faults and strengths can be found through different phases of the competition.
 
Starlord said:
German U-214 will be a Good Option ..
Click to expand...
Wha about Amur 1850 really quite subs with a lot of fire power...

war&peace said:
Just a quick thought (in no particular order)
  • type 214
  • Scorpene
  • S-20
Click to expand...
SMX OCCEAN/ AMUR1850 German Type 216?

Khafee said:
Unless you develop indigenous nuclear missiles, no one will give it to you.

Not 100% but yes the possibility of a sub slipping by, does exist.

The point of this thread is to look at platforms and what they offer, not weather one should have them or not.
Click to expand...
SMX OCCEAN is one best conventional subs.... Plus it's the best looking and JV and ToT with French is possible but not wth Germans.

Khafee said:
Unless you develop indigenous nuclear missiles, no one will give it to you.

Not 100% but yes the possibility of a sub slipping by, does exist.

The point of this thread is to look at platforms and what they offer, not weather one should have them or not.
Click to expand...
SMX OCCEAN is one best conventional subs.... Plus it's the best looking and JV and ToT with French is possible but not wth Germans.
 
Submarine operations are pretty complex and take years of training, experience in operations and then develop a culture in the Navy. PN commenced SubOps in 1963, when the first crew was sent to the US.

Buying a sub doesn't mean anything.

I may be off topic as desired by the OP, but the need to have a certain platform, warrants the required expertise to operate that platform.

I have done numerous exercises with the RSNF and have been onboard RSNF vessels as umpire also.
They arn't even proficient in Surface operations, so even thinking of subops for them is a pretty far fetched idea.
They have very limited knowledge of ASW.

I remember in an exercise, one of their SSM's misfired at sea, they came back alongside and called the OEM. The OEM team reached Karachi the next day and worked on the missile system. After 2 days, they went to sea again and fired the missile. This was their standard then and I am sure it hasn't improved much. I cant share more than this.

Sorry for being too critical towards RSNF, but it's not meant to degrade them.

UAE Navy isn't much different that RSNF, but they are more hard working than the Saudi's.
I had both Saudi and UAE cadets train with me in the Academy, so I know their level of understanding.
 
Rashid Mahmood said:
Submarine operations are pretty complex and take years of training, experience in operations and then develop a culture in the Navy. PN commenced SubOps in 1963, when the first crew was sent to the US.

Buying a sub doesn't mean anything.

I may be off topic as desired by the OP, but the need to have a certain platform, warrants the required expertise to operate that platform.

I have done numerous exercises with the RSNF and have been onboard RSNF vessels as umpire also.
They arn't even proficient in Surface operations, so even thinking of subops for them is a pretty far fetched idea.
They have very limited knowledge of ASW.

I remember in an exercise, one of their SSM's misfired at sea, they came back alongside and called the OEM. The OEM team reached Karachi the next day and worked on the missile system. After 2 days, they went to sea again and fired the missile. This was their standard then and I am sure it hasn't improved much. I cant share more than this.

Sorry for being too critical towards RSNF, but it's not meant to degrade them.

UAE Navy isn't much different that RSNF, but they are more hard working than the Saudi's.
I had both Saudi and UAE cadets train with me in the Academy, so I know their level of understanding.
Click to expand...
Excellent!!!
 
Khafee said:
Over the last few years KSA and the UAE Navies have been focusing on fleet renewal and upgrading capabilities, in particular ASW.

Now as any student of naval warfare knows that a sub is not only an offensive platform, but a deterrent too.

I had totally forgotten about this, until @zaravn brought up this topic. What I would like to see, from respected forum members on this thread, is NOT shots in the dark, but proper options. i.e. when you suggest a platform give details of its specs, and it's pros, and cons.

Thank You

http://www.govconwire.com/2014/02/s...chille-fulfaro-comments/#sthash.jXvRg3Ad.dpuf

@Penguin @Zarvan @The Eagle @Fenrir and others
Click to expand...

Germans and French SSKs are very advance and potent, they can built sub as per UAE's requirements.

UAE can look into this sub if they want.

 
Rashid Mahmood said:
Submarine operations are pretty complex and take years of training, experience in operations and then develop a culture in the Navy. PN commenced SubOps in 1963, when the first crew was sent to the US.

Buying a sub doesn't mean anything.

I may be off topic as desired by the OP, but the need to have a certain platform, warrants the required expertise to operate that platform.

I have done numerous exercises with the RSNF and have been onboard RSNF vessels as umpire also.
They arn't even proficient in Surface operations, so even thinking of subops for them is a pretty far fetched idea.
They have very limited knowledge of ASW.

I remember in an exercise, one of their SSM's misfired at sea, they came back alongside and called the OEM. The OEM team reached Karachi the next day and worked on the missile system. After 2 days, they went to sea again and fired the missile. This was their standard then and I am sure it hasn't improved much. I cant share more than this.

Sorry for being too critical towards RSNF, but it's not meant to degrade them.

UAE Navy isn't much different that RSNF, but they are more hard working than the Saudi's.
I had both Saudi and UAE cadets train with me in the Academy, so I know their level of understanding.
Click to expand...

You have raised a point, I knew you would, and rightly so.

Issues exist, but that does not mean that procurement is abandoned. If things get serious, I'm sure PN can be relied upon, to help them get in shape. Our Air Force when it was just the AD AF, was much more fragile, and now look where it stands today, undoubtedly with the help of PAF.

Since 2010, we have been working on the Army along the same lines. The Navy has been improving on the same lines, but more work needs to be done.

The most difficult part of submarine warfare, like you mentioned, isn't the hardware, but the tactics, and that obviously takes time to master.

Nonetheless, a platform that would suit us is one that would be bale to hold it's own, not only in the Arabian Sea and Red Sea, but in the Indian Ocean Region.

Best Regards

Gufi said:
Germany is not a partner which Saudi will have much faith in long term neither is the German parliament going to make any deals easy to pass through parliament. Sweden is not a reliable partner either, with its ups and downs on arm deals.
France is a partner that will deliver what you pay for, even though the cost is quite exorbitant. China would also deal with Saudi Arabia. Japan would be another nation that has the requisite technology and would be amicable to selling to Saudi Arabia.
Having gotten an idea of the options available, albeit crude in nature, the filtering has to be done according to parameters which include price, compatibility, and purpose.
Price will not be an issue if KSA becomes serious about pursuing an interest in an underwater fleet. The main issues shall be compatibility with the naval fleet at large. The purpose, for all intents would require a sub with a long range and endurance which any the nations could provide.
The list would thus be the Sorya class, the scorpene class, the Type 20, and if one stretches the S 80. Looking at each of them in detail is not really necessary as all are up to par to the role that is required of them, rather the navy of KSA needs to be examined to see which of these is compatible with the fleet that Saudi has at the moment. Being a fleet influenced strongly by France, and the USA a western variant would be preferable.
On the basis of this assumption, two submarines stand out, the Sorya and the Scorpene class.
@Khafee I went for a pragmatic approach rather then study each submarine separately because most have went through the Australian tests and their faults and strengths can be found through different phases of the competition.
Click to expand...

I'm impressed. Thank You for your valubale input. Appreciate it.

I think a country who will also train, and provide post delivery operational help, besides refining tactics would be one that needs to be considered.

Penguin said:
The Persian Gulf only has a (average) depth of 35-50m. Not great submarine territory. So any KSA and UAE submarines would better be stationed/used in the Arabian Sea
Click to expand...
Yes, Average depth is 50m and max 90m. It really wont be the area of operation, but more of transit.

The Eagle said:
Thanks for the tag Sir. Though I am not expert in such subject at all but still being a reader of current development and merely creating a point that from we can go ahead with discussion. Merely for the reference and contention to discuss the threat as per current development, we have to keep in mind that Iran is operating Kilo Class Russian subs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


UAE Subs Option: In my opinion, we know that UAE enjoys good relations with France and current Scorpene Subs are well reputed and for the same, we can see the Australian contract with French Manufacturer and the same road for UAE. Also going the same road, it will be easy to call it net-centric w.r.t. integration and close communication. Furthermore, the surface fleet is mostly from France.

The Baynunah class are corvettes for the United Arab Emirates Navy. The lead ship is named after the Baynunah region in Abu Dhabi. Six ships are planned for this class. Sea trials are currently underway. Platform and combat systems trials are expected to continue through 2011, after which time the lead ship will be delivered to the UAE Navy.[3]


Scorpene Subs

The Scorpène class of ships has four subtypes:[5] the CM-2000 conventional diesel-electric version, the AM-2000 AIP derivative, the downsized CA-2000 coastal submarine, and the enlarged S-BR for the Brazilian Navy, without AIP.[6]

The Chilean and Malaysian boats are fitted with the TSM 2233 Mk 2 sonar. The class can also be fitted with an 'S-Cube' sonar suite from Thales.[7]


Royal Malaysian Navy's Scorpéne-class submarine KD Tunku Abdul Rahman
Class overview
Name: Scorpène class
Builders:
Operators:
Preceded by: Agosta class
Subclasses:
Cost: US$450 million
Building: 4
Planned: 19
Completed: 4
Cancelled: 4
General characteristics
Type: Submarine
Displacement:
  • 1,565 tonnes (1,725 short tons) (CM-2000)
  • 1,870 tonnes (2,060 short tons) (AM-2000)
  • 2,000 tonnes (2,200 short tons) (S-BR)[1]
Length:
  • 61.7 m (202 ft) (CM-2000)
  • 70 m (230 ft) (AM-2000)
  • 75 metres (246 ft) (S-BR)[1]
Beam: 6.2 m (20 ft)
Draught: 5.4 m (18 ft)
Draft: 5.8 m (19 ft)
Propulsion:
Speed:
  • 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph) (submerged)
  • 12 kn (22 km/h; 14 mph) (surfaced)
Range:
  • 6,500 nmi (12,000 km) at 8 kn (15 km/h; 9.2 mph) (surfaced)
  • 550 nmi (1,020 km; 630 mi) at 5 kn (9.3 km/h; 5.8 mph) (submerged)
Endurance:
  • 40 days (compact)
  • 50 days (normal)
  • 50+21 days (AIP)
Test depth: >350 metres (1,150 ft)[2]
Complement: 31
Armament: 6 x 533 mm (21 in) torpedo tubes for 18 Whitehead Alenia Sistemi SubacqueiBlack Shark heavyweight torpedoes or SM.39 Exocet anti-ship missiles, 30 mines in place of torpedoes

b4795ae078b6a6d24ba0150255c813f4.jpg


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


KSA Option: So far IMO, German Class 212, Italian Todaro class could be strong contender for KSA Sub fleet. I read somewhere that Italian were more confident to have contract in this subject for KSA as well as Germany would be offering the same for KSA sub fleet. It is to be kept in mind that Germany has already lost to DCNS France in India and Australian contracts so would be more offering in-case KSA goes for such.

The German Type 212 class, also Italian Todaro class,[6] is a highly advanced design of non-nuclear submarine developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG (HDW) for the German and Italian navies. It features diesel propulsion and an additional air-independent propulsion (AIP) system using Siemens proton exchange membrane (PEM) compressed hydrogen fuel cells. The submarines can operate at high speed on diesel power or switch to the AIP system for silent slow cruising, staying submerged for up to three weeks without surfacing and with little exhaust heat. The system is also said to be vibration-free, extremely quiet and virtually undetectable.


U-34 underway
Class overview
Builders: Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW) - Fincantieri SpA
Operators:
Preceded by: Type 206 submarine, Sauro class submarine
Cost: 371 million Euros
In service: 2002
In commission: 2005
Planned: 14
Completed: 10
Active: 8
General characteristics
Displacement:
  • 1,524 tonnes (1,500 long tons) surfaced
  • 1,830 tonnes (1,800 long tons) submerged
Length:
  • 56 metres (183 ft 9 in)
  • 57.20 metres (187 ft 8 in) (2nd batch)
Beam: 6.80 metres (22 ft 4 in)
Draught: 6.40 metres (21 ft 0 in)
Decks: 2
Installed power: 1 x MTU-396 16V (2,150 kW); 1 x Siemens Permasyn electric motor Type FR6439-3900KW (2,850 kW)
Propulsion:
Speed:
  • 12 knots (22 km/h; 14 mph) surfaced
  • 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph) submerged[3]
Range: 8,000 nautical miles (15,000 km; 9,200 mi) at 8 knots (15 km/h; 9.2 mph)
Endurance: 3 weeks without snorkeling, 12 weeks overall
Test depth:
  • 250 metres (820 ft)
  • crush depth over 700 m (2,296 ft)[4]
Complement: 5 officers, 22 men
Sensors and
processing systems: CSU 90 (DBQS-40FTC), Sonar: ISUS90-20, Radar: Kelvin Hughes Type 1007 I-band nav.,
Electronic warfare
& decoys: EADS FL 1800U suite
Armament: 6 x 533 millimetres (21 in) torpedo tubes (in 2 forward pointing groups of 3) with 13[5] DM2A4, Black Shark Torpedo, IDAS missiles and 24 external naval mines (optional)

type+212+cut+out.jpg




Also, German Type-209.... (AIP can be fitted)

The Type 209 is a class of diesel-electric attack submarine developed exclusively for export by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft of Germany. The original variant (Type 209/1100) was designed in the late 1960s. Despite not being operated by the German Navy, five variants of the class (209/1100, 209/1200, 209/1300, 209/1400 and 209/1500) have been successfully exported to 13 countries, with 61 submarines being built and commissioned between 1971 and 2008.


S41 (861), a Type 209/1400 submarine of the Egyptian Navy, during sea trials.
Class overview
Builders:
Operators: See below
Preceded by: Type 206 submarine
Succeeded by: Type 214 submarine
In commission: 1971-present
Planned: 64
Completed: 61
Cancelled: 3
Active: 59
Laid up: 2
General characteristics
Type: Type 209/1500 submarine
Displacement: 1,810 tonnes (1,780 long tons) submerged
Length: 64.4 metres (211 ft)
Beam: 6.5 metres (21 ft)
Draft: 6.2 metres (20 ft)
Propulsion: Diesel-electric, 4 diesels, 1 shaft, 6100 shp
Speed:
  • 11.5 knots (21 km/h), surfaced;
  • 22.5 knots (42 km/h), submerged
Range:
  • 11000 Nautical miles (nmi) at 10 knots, surfaced,
  • (20,000 km at 20 km/h);
  • 8,000 nmi at 10 knots, snorkeling,
  • (15,000 km at 20 km/h);
  • 400 nmi at 4 knots, submerged
  • (740 km at 7 km/h)
Endurance: 50 days
Test depth: 500 metres (1,600 ft)
Complement: 36
Armament:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We can also consider the both offerings or the manufacturers for either countries in-case of any interest.

On other hand, if geo-politics takes a drastic change and diversion of sources to be kept in mind, then one may have a look at Chinese inventory for possible interest but for the moment, the same highly unlikely to happen hence, quoting for the reference only. These kind of inductions, IMO, are based strongly on relations with countries and the trust of support/supply in high-times that both countries would be aware of their relations and foreign policies.
Click to expand...

The Iranian Kilo class are not that much of a threat in the Arabian Gulf, due to the depth of the gulf. To counter it the Baynunah Class and Abu Dhabi Class corvettes are sufficient.

HRK said:
The only option which can serve not only today's need but FUTURE NEEDS as well ....

KSS-III Changbogo-I submarine
View attachment 372053
View attachment 372054

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/kss-3-specs.htm

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...bogo-iii-heavy-diesel-electric-submarine.html
Click to expand...
Something very serious to think about. Not to be dismissed easily.

Unfortunately big ticket defence procurement has an element of buying political clout as well. S.Korea would not fair well in that category.
 
Khafee said:
You have raised a point, I knew you would, and rightly so.

Issues exist, but that does not mean that procurement is abandoned. If things get serious, I'm sure PN can be relied upon, to help them get in shape. Our Air Force when it was just the AD AF, was much more fragile, and now look where it stands today, undoubtedly with the help of PAF.

Since 2010, we have been working on the Army along the same lines. The Navy has been improving on the same lines, but more work needs to be done.

The most difficult part of submarine warfare, like you mentioned, isn't the hardware, but the tactics, and that obviously takes time to master.

Nonetheless, a platform that would suit us is one that would be bale to hold it's own, not only in the Arabian Sea and Red Sea, but in the Indian Ocean Region.

Best Regards



I'm impressed. Thank You for your valubale input. Appreciate it.

I think a country who will also train, and provide post delivery operational help, besides refining tactics would be one that needs to be considered.


Yes, Average depth is 50m and max 90m. It really wont be the area of operation, but more of transit.



The Iranian Kilo class are not that much of a threat in the Arabian Gulf, due to the depth of the gulf. To counter it the Baynunah Class and Abu Dhabi Class corvettes are sufficient.


Something very serious to think about. Not to be dismissed easily.

Unfortunately big ticket defence procurement has an element of buying political clout as well. S.Korea would not fair well in that category.
Click to expand...
i think its about mind set.
gulf have been almost the most peaceful area in the world so not much to worry anyway
 
EpiiC said:
Wha about Amur 1850 really quite subs with a lot of fire power...


SMX OCCEAN/ AMUR1850 German Type 216?


SMX OCCEAN is one best conventional subs.... Plus it's the best looking and JV and ToT with French is possible but not wth Germans.


SMX OCCEAN is one best conventional subs.... Plus it's the best looking and JV and ToT with French is possible but not wth Germans.
Click to expand...
Amur 1850 - The Russians could deliver a the complete package, but maintaing Russian H/w, and plus the fact that they sell Kilos to Iran needs to be considered. IMO the Chinese have a better chance than the Russians.

SMX OCCEAN - Technologically right at the pinnacle. Something to very very seriously consider.

ali_raza said:
i think its about mind set.
gulf have been almost the most peaceful area in the world so not much to worry anyway
Click to expand...

@MastanKhan could answer this statement very well. Military hardware is as much about what your enemy perceives you can do with it.

In order to maintain peace, having a formidable arsenal, that actually functions, is of paramount importance.
 

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