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KSA-PAK: A new strategic alliance emerging?

People like to push the phrase Pakistan first all the time here. Pakistan First would mean go with the party who can give you the Maximum Benefits. As it stands today and for the foreseeable future only one party has the economic muscle to help us. The fact is Pakistanis are emotional sises who have no idea how geopolitical power play works. Saudis here have an opportunity give 50 percent of the Jobs to Pakistanis and cement a new geostrategic alliance.
 
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Strengthen the country. When Pakistan was perceived as being strong the country was respected
Now the country is perceived as weak and is everyone's door mat.
The cretin Imran Khan Niazi a few months back claimed he would mediate between Iran and Zionist Arabia.
Now he went on a pointless tour and they gave him fitrana for our public.
When you act like a shameless whore you get treated like one. And there's no bigger whore than ik
Gen Zia would be turning in his grave
The bastard khan has put on his Twitter, ik stands with Gaza.
Allegedly the most powerful Muslim country on earth with 300 nuclear bombs and that's all he can say.
Shame on him shame on bujwa. Shame on us
Strengthen the country.

For that we need accountability across the board, and meritocracy to be strictly implemented. That does not seem to be happening, so how about another alternative?
I think here qureshi sab turned millions into billions
SMQ was trying his best to turn into a big zero, but Boots prevailed and.........
 
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U call it blunder but that was right thing to do. India has veey close relationship with iran but still ksa is providing every bit of support to india out of the way.

On 5th august kashmir issue ksa actively played against our interest by using OIC.

What u call stupidity is actually delinking our foreign policy from ksa.

It was tough initially but now even MBS is talking about having good relations with iran.

On the other hand we r moving towards independent foreign policy not linked to objectives of ksa.

It was immature on part of ksa to try controlling pakistan relationship with other countries. It did work for sometime but in the end it make us realign ourselves and to reduce our dependency on ksa and midddle east..
Apologies, but I completely disagree with your view. Firstly, India is not a good example for use to compare with us. They're one of the largest economies in the world, and a regional power than can form individual bilateral relations despite possible trilateral complications. Simply put, only the US can really hold India accountable for having relations with Iran, they're the biggest fish of all. Israel, Saudi, and other GCC on the other hand are not that big, and they each might prioritize relations with India, and therefore can't afford to jeopardize relations for the sake of some objections they may have vis-a-vis Iran. This is example of prudent foreign policy and diplomacy on the part of these nations. We also practice this type of prudence elsewhere, I can't understand what led us down this path with the GCC.

Another reason why the Indian example is invalid is due to the balance of leverage comparison. We are beholden to Saudi because they literally and directly bail out the state of Pakistan. They also hold the key to millions of our expats, and a giant source of state revenue via remittances. We have little to no leverage on them, therefore we are not able to draft independent policy decisions, let alone make demands. India on the other hand, is a much larger trading partner and has the potential to become even bigger, and they don't require Saudi bailouts.

On your point about de-linking policy with KSA -- frankly, this I see any attempts as of now as an absurdity. You cannot simultaneously be beholden to a country, receive bailouts and other support, and then make a farcical attempt to de-link policy. Independent foreign policy is a privilege reserved for those countries that are not living off the credit lines supplied by other states. So I retain my view, this was indeed stupidity on the part of our leadership. We can try and spin it as something better to take the edge off of the charge, but ultimately, it's absurd even at face value, and the result was just as bad as anyone might have predicted.

Also, I think we shouldn't jump the gun on KSA-Iran possible reconciliation. I'm not sure if you're aware just what KSA was preparing and gearing up for in the run up to the conclusion of the Trump administration, and with the recent embrace of Israel etc. I've heard a few stories but can't be sure myself. At that time, relations with Iran were set to get even worse, not better. If today, Biden is forcing them to shift a little now, it's because of the possibility of the reinstatement of the JCPOA for Iran, and also indirectly due to soured US-Saudi relations following the Khashoggi killing. But don't expect cordial ties between the GCC and Iran any time soon.

I think any illusions of Turkey, or Malaysia, or any other country for that matter filling the Gulf left by the GCC (no pun intended), have been thoroughly reputed. I used to say that Turkey and Malaysia can't and won't help you the way the Saudis and GCC can, and have done in the past. At every desperate moment of ours in living memory, Saudis have bailed us out. They've been a vital bridge of ours diplomatically to the US, and to other nations. And they hold the key to millions of our people in the Middle East, not just whose livelihoods are on the line, but whose remittances help keep the state afloat.

As for the comments from the likes of SMQ, those can't even be explained by de-linkage. That was plain crass stupidity, and very unbecoming of a man in his position. Int'l diplomacy is an art oft likened to paddling on water; being calm and serene above the water, while paddling furiously below. His outbursts can't really be explained in any way that I can fathom.

This whole affair also reminds me of our recent national outrage against France. From the PM and his ministers down to the common man, we denounced them, and we were considering boycotts and expulsions of diplomatic staff. However, no more than a few weeks after our rage were we graciously accepting French debt forgiveness as well as aid, such is our plight unfortunately.

I think we can only talk about de-linkage and independent foreign policy initiatives when we are able to stand on our own two feet, and actually have some muscle to flex, and something to bargain with.
 
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Apologies, but I completely disagree with your view. Firstly, India is not a good example for use to compare with us. They're one of the largest economies in the world, and a regional power than can form individual bilateral relations despite possible trilateral complications. Simply put, only the US can really hold India accountable for having relations with Iran, they're the biggest fish of all. Israel, Saudi, and other GCC on the other hand are not that big, and they each might prioritize relations with India, and therefore can't afford to jeopardize relations for the sake of some objections they may have vis-a-vis Iran. This is example of prudent foreign policy and diplomacy on the part of these nations. We also practice this type of prudence elsewhere, I can't understand what led us down this path with the GCC.

Another reason why the Indian example is invalid is due to the balance of leverage comparison. We are beholden to Saudi because they literally and directly bail out the state of Pakistan. They also hold the key to millions of our expats, and a giant source of state revenue via remittances. We have little to no leverage on them, therefore we are not able to draft independent policy decisions, let alone make demands. India on the other hand, is a much larger trading partner and has the potential to become even bigger, and they don't require Saudi bailouts.

On your point about de-linking policy with KSA -- frankly, this I see any attempts as of now as an absurdity. You cannot simultaneously be beholden to a country, receive bailouts and other support, and then make a farcical attempt to de-link policy. Independent foreign policy is a privilege reserved for those countries that are not living off the credit lines supplied by other states. So I retain my view, this was indeed stupidity on the part of our leadership. We can try and spin it as something better to take the edge off of the charge, but ultimately, it's absurd even at face value, and the result was just as bad as anyone might have predicted.

Also, I think we shouldn't jump the gun on KSA-Iran possible reconciliation. I'm not sure if you're aware just what KSA was preparing and gearing up for in the run up to the conclusion of the Trump administration, and with the recent embrace of Israel etc. I've heard a few stories but can't be sure myself. At that time, relations with Iran were set to get even worse, not better. If today, Biden is forcing them to shift a little now, it's because of the possibility of the reinstatement of the JCPOA for Iran, and also indirectly due to soured US-Saudi relations following the Khashoggi killing. But don't expect cordial ties between the GCC and Iran any time soon.

I think any illusions of Turkey, or Malaysia, or any other country for that matter filling the Gulf left by the GCC (no pun intended), have been thoroughly reputed. I used to say that Turkey and Malaysia can't and won't help you the way the Saudis and GCC can, and have done in the past. At every desperate moment of ours in living memory, Saudis have bailed us out. They've been a vital bridge of ours diplomatically to the US, and to other nations. And they hold the key to millions of our people in the Middle East, not just whose livelihoods are on the line, but whose remittances help keep the state afloat.

As for the comments from the likes of SMQ, those can't even be explained by de-linkage. That was plain crass stupidity, and very unbecoming of a man in his position. Int'l diplomacy is an art oft likened to paddling on water; being calm and serene above the water, while paddling furiously below. His outbursts can't really be explained in any way that I can fathom.

This whole affair also reminds me of our recent national outrage against France. From the PM and his ministers down to the common man, we denounced them, and we were considering boycotts and expulsions of diplomatic staff. However, no more than a few weeks after our rage were we graciously accepting French debt forgiveness as well as aid, such is our plight unfortunately.

I think we can only talk about de-linkage and independent foreign policy initiatives when we are able to stand on our own two feet, and actually have some muscle to flex, and something to bargain with.
U have your own views and entitled to your opinion. However i am not in agreement with your statements except for the last para.

We r in difficult times now but its not like that we were always in similar condition or will remain the same. If millions of pakistani are working in GCC then these same Pakistani are responsible for making GCC capable of what they r today.

Its not like that only we want GCC support its the other way around as well. GCC is militarily so weak that they cant even handle few thousand houthis. Without protection if Pakistan KSA is as vulnerable to USA and Israel as Iraq and syria were.

Your statement that Pakistan cannot made independent foreign policy stand false as we still have the same instance in iran ksa dispute... 15 days back SMQ visited iran showing we still want to maintain balance between ksa and iran on the same timeframe visit of KSA was a success.

It was just a matter of time for ksa to realize the new facts of Pakistan making independent policies.

I dont understand why we as a nation want to use clutches and still wanted others to treat us an independent and proud nation.

If u behave like a slave others will treat u like a slave.

U want to leverage KSA and Iran dispute then they will treat u as slave.

There is a complete thought process in our foreign policy in which foreign policy is being moved from transactional based policies to relationship based policy.

Didnt we rejected FMS of USA but kept our relationship lines open with Taliban ? Didnt we fave the heat for almost a decade but in the long run USA did realize that they needed us and we were right as there is no military solution to afghanistan problem. Similarly KSA has back downed from her previous stance for Pakistan that we have to chose between iran and ksa. Clearly we havent chose any side but still getting relationships back to normal.
 
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Trump is gone, and it's unlikely that the pro-Saudi Republicans will come back to power in the next 8 years. So, the Saudis need to shore up their allies, as Biden is likely to be tough on KSA.

The Saudis are going back to what works, exploiting Pakistan by pretending to be nice, and throwing money at Pakistan. After how the Saudis have treated Pakistan since the beginning of the Yemen war, Pakistan's strategic planners will likely be more cautious of any Saudi rapprochement.

In other words, MBS bit off more than he could chew, and is going back to what worked for his predecessors.
 
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All of you are forgeting KSA current economic status, which is not good. It look all forum people are habitual of day dreaming and lack skill to analyze situation.
 
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For that we need accountability across the board, and meritocracy to be strictly implemented. That does not seem to be happening, so how about another alternative?

SMQ was trying his best to turn into a big zero, but Boots prevailed and.........
Accountability is an organic movement where people are filtered away, not a Spanish inquisition, particularly when the guardians have zero credibility. This experiment has failed and was always doomed as it had no sincere intention.
Eid Mubarak
 
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MBS is ambitious. MBS is young.

Is he aimimg for supremacy and total domination of Muslim world ,??


Everything he is doing is just steps to reach that goal. He is throwing crumbs , peace talks, money, business...anything that can help him achieve that goal.

Iran and Turkey will be lulled. What is his end game? The challenge is not easy as Iran and Turkey are strong.

India has good relation with both Iran and Arab world. India is now trying to develop better relation with Turkey.

Peace gives the best dividend.

Id Mubrak to all and hope peace prevails in the Arab Peninsula. Everybody lives. No more puctures of suffering, of child death.
 
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U have your own views and entitled to your opinion. However i am not in agreement with your statements except for the last para.

We r in difficult times now but its not like that we were always in similar condition or will remain the same. If millions of pakistani are working in GCC then these same Pakistani are responsible for making GCC capable of what they r today.

Its not like that only we want GCC support its the other way around as well. GCC is militarily so weak that they cant even handle few thousand houthis. Without protection if Pakistan KSA is as vulnerable to USA and Israel as Iraq and syria were.

Your statement that Pakistan cannot made independent foreign policy stand false as we still have the same instance in iran ksa dispute... 15 days back SMQ visited iran showing we still want to maintain balance between ksa and iran on the same timeframe visit of KSA was a success.

It was just a matter of time for ksa to realize the new facts of Pakistan making independent policies.

I dont understand why we as a nation want to use clutches and still wanted others to treat us an independent and proud nation.

If u behave like a slave others will treat u like a slave.

U want to leverage KSA and Iran dispute then they will treat u as slave.

There is a complete thought process in our foreign policy in which foreign policy is being moved from transactional based policies to relationship based policy.

Didnt we rejected FMS of USA but kept our relationship lines open with Taliban ? Didnt we fave the heat for almost a decade but in the long run USA did realize that they needed us and we were right as there is no military solution to afghanistan problem. Similarly KSA has back downed from her previous stance for Pakistan that we have to chose between iran and ksa. Clearly we havent chose any side but still getting relationships back to normal.

Brother, it's not me that wants Pakistan to be beholden to anyone or unable to draft truly independent policy. It is this way as a matter of fact, and I am merely pointing this out. Why do you think these moves with Saudi caused such a fiasco? If we were independent, might we not have completely ignored them?

Where we do maintain a stance like the one we took on the Taliban as you mentioned, or on not getting involved in Yemen, despite the fact that these moves cost us ties, we did them only after we had a proper assessment of what is in our national interest. It's a cold and calculated cost-benefit analysis. Par exemple:

Is it worth getting into Yemen just to keep Saudi happy? We concluded no, and kindly backed out despite GCC dissatisfaction, we can't afford to involve ourselves in a foreign sectarian conflict.
Is it worth looking the other way on Saudi initiatives in their own region, be it even reaching our to Israel? We concluded yes, it costs us nothing, and it would cost us not to stay quiet.

Our national interests have their own defined red lines, but beyond this we are to quite a large extent unable to draft truly independent policy. We are an international pipsqueak, and are reliant on allies for everything from financial bailouts, to war-fighting capability, to vaccines.

We can't afford to be an int'l pariah like Iran, we have no oil and LNG wealth to survive off, if we don't maintain ties with the West as an example, we'll be in a tough spot. Sanctions don't just bump numbers off of GDP, they literally lead to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of premature deaths, these happen by starvation, poverty, medical shortages etc.

On the other hand, what happens if we choose not to take Saudi, GCC, French, US (IMF) aid? We would default on dollar denominated debts. And that would be us done as an economy for a good decade or two. I work in finance as you know from prev conversations we've had... Argentina defaulted 16 years ago, folks in this business still treat its sovereign to this day as, and I quote, "a load of shit". If we allow ourselves to get to that point, that's us done in terms of investments, financial and capital markets, export credit, sovereign guaranteed financing etc. Even the Chinese would raise their rates or flee.

Now when you are taking loans from others, they don't do this without contractual conditions, and other unwritten and unstipulated expectations. If the Saudis bail us out, they expect our support to an EXTENT. That's not to say they expect us to go guns blazing into Yemen, the whole Pakistani nation, and the whole of parliament (govt+opp), and the mill establishment, all rejected this. But some basics are very much expected of us.

What are those? To a degree to which it's tolerable, we won't interfere or deter Saudi initiatives in what they consider their sphere of influence, we do't actively or tacitly undermine them via Iran, Turkey, Malaysia etc, we don't move against the OIC in any way. We can have ties with these nations, that's fine, in the same way we expect the Saudis to have ties with India, but don't cross the line on certain matters. This is how all international relations operate, and creditors apply these conditions as a matter of obligation.

The US bails us out but only if we give Washington something, they will help take us off the FATF grey list, but only if we accommodate them in Afghanistan etc. There are no free lunches, and IMO, IK and his cabinet messed up the Saudi relations, they did not properly judge the int'l dynamics at play, and this move has gained us very little, and cost us a lot more. It utterly failed that cost benefit analysis. The army understood this and are now fixing it.
 
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@The Accountant I actually agree with you to quite a large extent on Iran though. Even there we have to tread carefully, if are too brazen it upsets both the West and the GCC, our diplomatic ties are there, but just a lot quieter.
 
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