What's new

Kill Two Birds With A Stone: Burn Trash, Make Electricity

RiazHaq

SENIOR MEMBER
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
6,611
Reaction score
70
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Among other things during a visit to Pakistan last year, the frequent power outages, commonly called "load shedding", and piles of garbage in the streets made a distinct impression on my family and I. Since our return to the United States, I have been wondering if it is possible to solve both problems at once? Clean up the streets by collecting garbage, and burn the collected trash to generate more electricity? It seems that the Danes are doing exactly that, according to a story in today's New York Times.

Denmark's Community Power Plants:

The new plants in Denmark are far cleaner than conventional incinerators. Such new type of plants convert local community trash into heat and electricity. Dozens of filters catch pollutants, from mercury to dioxin, that would have emerged from its smokestack only a decade ago.

As a result of new innovations, Denmark now regards garbage as a clean alternative fuel rather than a smelly, unsightly problem. And the incinerators, known as waste-to-energy plants, are welcomed by many upscale communities of professionals that vie to have them built.

Denmark now has 29 such plants, serving 98 municipalities in a country of over 5 million people, and 10 more are planned or under construction. Across Europe, there are about 400 plants, with Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands leading the pack in expanding them and building new ones, according to the New York Times.

Pakistan's Mountains of Garbage:

With the consumption boom of packaged products in the last few years, it seems that Pakistani cities are inundated with rubbish, and the garbage collection and waste disposal systems are totally inadequate. Here is an excerpt from my post in July 2009 about visit to Karachi:

"We saw lots of heaps of stinking trash in several parts of the city along the roadside on our way. It seemed as though the Karachi garbage collectors were on strike, but my impressions proved to be incorrect, as I was told that this was normal in several parts of Karachi. The government owned and operated garbage collection systems pick up less than 50% of the solid waste generated and the remaining uncollected garbage rots on the streets, posing serious health risks for the growing population. The massive piles of garbage also plug up the already inadequate storm water drains resulting in serious flooding in the monsoon months of July and August every year. None of the major cities in Pakistan have an adequate solid waste management system, though Karachi city government has reportedly contracted with a Chinese firm to establish and operate such a system. The waste collection and management firm, Shanghai Shen Gong Environmental Protection Company Limited, will start its operations of collecting litter from across the city from August 14, 2009 - initially in only six of the eighteen towns of the city of Karachi. And, as expected, this service will not come free, nor should it. Karachi-ites will be required to pay Rs. 100 to 1,000 per month as public utility charges under six categories (according to lot size) on their residential units. Businesses built on 200 sq yards to 10,000 sq yards or more will have to pay Rs. 500 to Rs. 5,000 in garbage collection fees while industrial units covering an area of 1,000 sq yards to 5,000 sq yards and above will be billed Rs. 500 to Rs. 2,000 per month. There have already been howls of protests against these garbage collection fees and it will be interesting to see how effective CDGK (City District Government of Karachi) will be in ensuring payments."

Unfortunately, I am told that things have gotten much worse since last year. The City District Government of Karachi (CDGK) has since been dissolved, and the privatization of garbage collection has not materialized. At the same time, the energy crisis has become significantly more acute, with extended hours of "load shedding" on a daily basis.

Recommendation:

There is no real substitute for dramatic improvements in government's energy policies and governance to solve the acute energy problems Pakistan faces. However, I do think the Danish experience is worth exploring by at least some of the communities in Pakistan. Instead of just complaining about mounting garbage piles, and running noisy and polluting diesel generators to fill the growing power gap, it is time for some of the upscale urban communities to start taking a page from the European experience to kill two birds with one stone. Based on the "clean energy" designation, these projects might even qualify for dollars from carbon credits under Kyoto's Clean Development Mechanism (CDM). Upscale communities such as Defense Housing Societies should seek guidance from their Danish counterparts to establish a few pilot projects to prove the concept in Pakistan.

Similar efforts can be undertaken in the industrial sector as well, with various industrial estates leading the way to solve their power problems. Rachna Industrial Park near Sheikhupura has already launched a 25 MW trash-burning power plant project currently underway.

Haq's Musings: Burn Garbage to Solve Pakistan's Electricity Crisis?

Haq's Musings: Creative Financing of Pakistan's Energy Projects
 
.
Among other things during a visit to Pakistan last year, the frequent power outages, commonly called "load shedding", and piles of garbage in the streets made a distinct impression on my family and I. Since our return to the United States, I have been wondering if it is possible to solve both problems at once? Clean up the streets by collecting garbage, and burn the collected trash to generate more electricity? It seems that the Danes are doing exactly that, according to a story in today's New York Times.

Denmark's Community Power Plants:

The new plants in Denmark are far cleaner than conventional incinerators. Such new type of plants convert local community trash into heat and electricity. Dozens of filters catch pollutants, from mercury to dioxin, that would have emerged from its smokestack only a decade ago.

As a result of new innovations, Denmark now regards garbage as a clean alternative fuel rather than a smelly, unsightly problem. And the incinerators, known as waste-to-energy plants, are welcomed by many upscale communities of professionals that vie to have them built.

Denmark now has 29 such plants, serving 98 municipalities in a country of over 5 million people, and 10 more are planned or under construction. Across Europe, there are about 400 plants, with Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands leading the pack in expanding them and building new ones, according to the New York Times.

Pakistan's Mountains of Garbage:

With the consumption boom of packaged products in the last few years, it seems that Pakistani cities are inundated with rubbish, and the garbage collection and waste disposal systems are totally inadequate. Here is an excerpt from my post in July 2009 about visit to Karachi:

"We saw lots of heaps of stinking trash in several parts of the city along the roadside on our way. It seemed as though the Karachi garbage collectors were on strike, but my impressions proved to be incorrect, as I was told that this was normal in several parts of Karachi. The government owned and operated garbage collection systems pick up less than 50% of the solid waste generated and the remaining uncollected garbage rots on the streets, posing serious health risks for the growing population. The massive piles of garbage also plug up the already inadequate storm water drains resulting in serious flooding in the monsoon months of July and August every year. None of the major cities in Pakistan have an adequate solid waste management system, though Karachi city government has reportedly contracted with a Chinese firm to establish and operate such a system. The waste collection and management firm, Shanghai Shen Gong Environmental Protection Company Limited, will start its operations of collecting litter from across the city from August 14, 2009 - initially in only six of the eighteen towns of the city of Karachi. And, as expected, this service will not come free, nor should it. Karachi-ites will be required to pay Rs. 100 to 1,000 per month as public utility charges under six categories (according to lot size) on their residential units. Businesses built on 200 sq yards to 10,000 sq yards or more will have to pay Rs. 500 to Rs. 5,000 in garbage collection fees while industrial units covering an area of 1,000 sq yards to 5,000 sq yards and above will be billed Rs. 500 to Rs. 2,000 per month. There have already been howls of protests against these garbage collection fees and it will be interesting to see how effective CDGK (City District Government of Karachi) will be in ensuring payments."

Unfortunately, I am told that things have gotten much worse since last year. The City District Government of Karachi (CDGK) has since been dissolved, and the privatization of garbage collection has not materialized. At the same time, the energy crisis has become significantly more acute, with extended hours of "load shedding" on a daily basis.

Recommendation:

There is no real substitute for dramatic improvements in government's energy policies and governance to solve the acute energy problems Pakistan faces. However, I do think the Danish experience is worth exploring by at least some of the communities in Pakistan. Instead of just complaining about mounting garbage piles, and running noisy and polluting diesel generators to fill the growing power gap, it is time for some of the upscale urban communities to start taking a page from the European experience to kill two birds with one stone. Based on the "clean energy" designation, these projects might even qualify for dollars from carbon credits under Kyoto's Clean Development Mechanism (CDM). Upscale communities such as Defense Housing Societies should seek guidance from their Danish counterparts to establish a few pilot projects to prove the concept in Pakistan.

Similar efforts can be undertaken in the industrial sector as well, with various industrial estates leading the way to solve their power problems. Rachna Industrial Park near Sheikhupura has already launched a 25 MW trash-burning power plant project currently underway.

Haq's Musings: Burn Garbage to Solve Pakistan's Electricity Crisis?

Haq's Musings: Creative Financing of Pakistan's Energy Projects



Even if the waste to energy plant is made, they still need to supply it with garbage, which needs collection, which we currently lack. Hence the garbage on the streets scenario.
Plus, you cannot simply burn everything. You will have to take out certain materials. That requires additional technology.
The fact that Pakistan has abundant Nuclear fuel, Water resources and fossil fuels but still faces load shedding, is the testament of the fact that it is the government's lack of desire to solve this problem. Without private investment the power industry in Pakistan has no hope. The rate at which the power shortfall is increasing and the rate at which new plants are being commissioned, load shedding is here to stay for long.
 
.
Even if the waste to energy plant is made, they still need to supply it with garbage, which needs collection, which we currently lack. Hence the garbage on the streets scenario.
Plus, you cannot simply burn everything. You will have to take out certain materials. That requires additional technology.
The fact that Pakistan has abundant Nuclear fuel, Water resources and fossil fuels but still faces load shedding, is the testament of the fact that it is the government's lack of desire to solve this problem. Without private investment the power industry in Pakistan has no hope. The rate at which the power shortfall is increasing and the rate at which new plants are being commissioned, load shedding is here to stay for long.

I am Compeled to agree with this. Indeed, resources are there but its Govt. inability or unwillingness to supply the nation with the basic requirements. Electricity can be developed by Coal of Thar for 800 Years 50,000 MW a year but its truly the Govt's incompitancy that despite of nature's and Allah's unlimited gifts to our country, we are still bound to face the worst.

KIT Over
 
.
Even if the waste to energy plant is made, they still need to supply it with garbage, which needs collection, which we currently lack. Hence the garbage on the streets scenario.
Plus, you cannot simply burn everything......

I think India too should go for this process.....we have lots and lots of garbage....mostly in the capital at a place called Parliament and the garbage goes by the name "Politicians":lol:
 
.
I think India too should go for this process.....we have lots and lots of garbage....mostly in the capital at a place called Parliament and the garbage goes by the name "Politicians":lol:



..and just imagine the amount and type of toxins that would be released into the air by burning them...:rofl:
 
.
I agree that the government is too incompetent and corrupt to solve this problem.

What I am proposing is the community based efforts to solve their problems locally. Each community can set up its own garbage collection disposal system, and invest in the modern power plants to generate clean electricity for their community. This will be more efficient that buying and running noisy and polluting diesel generators in individual homes. It will clean up the streets and kill two birds with one stone.

Industrial estates can do the same for their local industrial companies. Rachna industrial estate's 25 MW garbage-burning plant is an example of such an effort.
 
.
.
Even if the waste to energy plant is made, they still need to supply it with garbage, which needs collection, which we currently lack. Hence the garbage on the streets scenario.
Plus, you cannot simply burn everything. You will have to take out certain materials. That requires additional technology.
The fact that Pakistan has abundant Nuclear fuel, Water resources and fossil fuels but still faces load shedding, is the testament of the fact that it is the government's lack of desire to solve this problem. Without private investment the power industry in Pakistan has no hope. The rate at which the power shortfall is increasing and the rate at which new plants are being commissioned, load shedding is here to stay for long.

Other than vast amounts of sulfur-laden coal and rapidly dwindling gas reserves, Pakistan does not have any significant fossil fuel resources.

But it does have a lot of wind and sun which could be exploited with a wise policy.

Given Pakistan's huge supply-demand gap, the nation needs to tap all possible resources to meet its growing energy needs.

In the mean time, it is important for communities to light candles rather than curse darkness. One way to do it is to build community based local power plants, including garbage burning plans, to deal with the growing crisi.

Haq's Musings: Pakistan's Twin Energy Shortages of Gas and Electricity

Haq's Musings: Light a Candle, Don't Curse Darkness
 
.
I agree that the government is too incompetent and corrupt to solve this problem.

What I am proposing is the community based efforts to solve their problems locally. Each community can set up its own garbage collection disposal system, and invest in the modern power plants to generate clean electricity for their community. This will be more efficient that buying and running noisy and polluting diesel generators in individual homes. It will clean up the streets and kill two birds with one stone.

Industrial estates can do the same for their local industrial companies. Rachna industrial estate's 25 MW garbage-burning plant is an example of such an effort.

Local communities can do lot of things... even individual houses can be fueled by solar energy but the problem is govt. attitude is very discouraging.
No rebates or tax exemptions are available for import of renewable energy technologies.
Local communities helped govt in generation by buying portable generators on personal expense and govt. kept earning taxes.
Now govt. is planning to introduce new tax for personal generator use!
what is the surety that govt. will not tax garbage or sunlight in future?
 
.
Local communities can do lot of things... even individual houses can be fueled by solar energy but the problem is govt. attitude is very discouraging.
No rebates or tax exemptions are available for import of renewable energy technologies.
Local communities helped govt in generation by buying portable generators on personal expense and govt. kept earning taxes.
Now govt. is planning to introduce new tax for personal generator use!
what is the surety that govt. will not tax garbage or sunlight in future?

The costs of slow human development and lost economic productivity from lack of electricity far exceeds any other costs, including govt taxes.

Already, people in upscale communities in Pakistan are using noisy and polluting diesel generators in their homes. This is very inefficient. If they simply organize, pool their resources and build community based small power plants, they will a have more abundant, cheaper and cleaner electricity than they do now.
 
.
The costs of slow human development and lost economic productivity from lack of electricity far exceeds any other costs, including govt taxes.

Already, people in upscale communities in Pakistan are using noisy and polluting diesel generators in their homes. This is very inefficient. If they simply organize, pool their resources and build community based small power plants, they will a have more abundant, cheaper and cleaner electricity than they do now.




I'll answer both your posts....

First, the US geological survey and Pakistan Geological survey have both confirmed the presence of Oil, High quality coal and Gas reserves both in Eastern Sindh and interior Balochistan. My Father (Mechanical engineer for 30 years)works for company that recently set up a 227 MW CCPP in Sindh to run on gas. My father's elder brother (Chemical engineer 30+ years experience) works for OGDCL, and they in the past 5 years have earmarked enough gas/oil fields than they can handle. Work is slow because most Multi nationals like Shell, BP, Exxon don't want to come here due to security situation and the fact that their billions in dollars of investment is at stake due to crazy Balochis. You know what i am talking about. So don't go about claiming that Pakistan doesn't have the resources. We have natural resources, all of them.

Oil, Gas, High quality Coal (recently in Thar), Gold, Uranium, Copper etc. The list goes on. The fact that most of these lie in rugged terrains and away from cities makes the transportation of the million dollar equipment a nightmare. Then Security concerns. Right now other than US, British, Dutch, Italian, German and French companies, not many nations in the world have the right equipment to harness these resources. Look at Iran. Loads of Oil reserves but due to sanctions no one can work there. Iranians are desperate to develop their own rigs/drills which is not easy.


As you said community power plants and then you say garbage ones? Well, you cannot have most Fired-boiler based plants in communities like that in Karachi. It would be hazardous and dangerous. Plus the question is of land and security. There is a reason why all modern plants are still being built away from cities.

I am recently doing an internship at an office building on Shahre-Faisal. That modern building has 1.5MW of power consumption. Imagine how much would residential communities need that house like 100000 or more people. Generators at that size are hell expensive. The economic return would be over 15+ years, no one thinks that long here in Pakistan.


The only solution is to bring in foreign companies to invest. Otherwise no hope.

So please don't lecture me
 
.
I'll answer both your posts....

First, the US geological survey and Pakistan Geological survey have both confirmed the presence of Oil, High quality coal and Gas reserves both in Eastern Sindh and interior Balochistan. My Father (Mechanical engineer for 30 years)works for company that recently set up a 227 MW CCPP in Sindh to run on gas. My father's elder brother (Chemical engineer 30+ years experience) works for OGDCL, and they in the past 5 years have earmarked enough gas/oil fields than they can handle. Work is slow because most Multi nationals like Shell, BP, Exxon don't want to come here due to security situation and the fact that their billions in dollars of investment is at stake due to crazy Balochis. You know what i am talking about. So don't go about claiming that Pakistan doesn't have the resources. We have natural resources, all of them.

Oil, Gas, High quality Coal (recently in Thar), Gold, Uranium, Copper etc. The list goes on. The fact that most of these lie in rugged terrains and away from cities makes the transportation of the million dollar equipment a nightmare. Then Security concerns. Right now other than US, British, Dutch, Italian, German and French companies, not many nations in the world have the right equipment to harness these resources. Look at Iran. Loads of Oil reserves but due to sanctions no one can work there. Iranians are desperate to develop their own rigs/drills which is not easy.


As you said community power plants and then you say garbage ones? Well, you cannot have most Fired-boiler based plants in communities like that in Karachi. It would be hazardous and dangerous. Plus the question is of land and security. There is a reason why all modern plants are still being built away from cities.

I am recently doing an internship at an office building on Shahre-Faisal. That modern building has 1.5MW of power consumption. Imagine how much would residential communities need that house like 100000 or more people. Generators at that size are hell expensive. The economic return would be over 15+ years, no one thinks that long here in Pakistan.


The only solution is to bring in foreign companies to invest. Otherwise no hope.

So please don't lecture me

I suggest you try and learn how the technology is changing, and finding acceptance in Europe.

As I pointed earlier, environment and safety conscious Denmark is building many garbage burning plants in upscale communities of doctors and lawyers. If it was such a serious hazard, Danes would be the last to embrace such plants.

Europe Finds Cleaner Energy Source by Burning Trash - NYTimes.com

As to the investment required in garbage collection and plant building, it'll prove to be a lot less than the cost of noisy and polluting private diesel generators being used in a lot of communities in Karachi. A community based solution will also obviate dependence on the incompetent and corrupt government to supply electricity.
 
.
An amazing initiative and a testament to the power of cooperatives.

I am seriously disappointed by the reaction of our Indian and Pakistani members here. Why do we blame our government for all our problems?

No Electricity -----------------------> Blame Govt
No Water --------------------------->Blame Govt
Poor transport infrastructure ------->Blame Govt
etc etc etc

Why do we need incentives from the govt to fulfill our social duty, which is for our own good? Take for example what happened here in Delhi. The govt has put up two different colour wastebins for recyclable and non-recyclable waste. Do any of us segregate our waste? Then we blame the govt for the huge piles of waste in our city.

With much efficient and cheaper oil and coal based technologies available, our power companies should be able to fulfill much more of the demand. But they are inefficient because of lack of competition. If community power plants come up, not only can they fulfill the gap in demand-supply, but they can also sell extra energy if available, providing competition to the power companies.
 
.
^^ You shouldn't be spilling your beens in serious discussion all i understood from your confusing statement is that you disagree that govt. should not introduce incentives for investments in renewable energy! incl. tax exemptions!

Your statement shows you need lot of education, in energy bussines.
In short all such investments help govt. save costs in many areas, specially in Pakistan where govt. has to finance the losses of state organisation.
In addition it helps in clean environment.
At the end every thing come to the point of customer, who is interested in availability and reliability along with cost, which will also improve with private power many folds (in Pakistan).
Despite being a win win situation govt. does not facilitate such intiatives or even willing to talk about it.... simply because in civil govt. all politicians, key journalists, civil servants, political activists and their families use free electricity.
They all work on help each other philisophy basis on top of it is IMF and WB which see problems when people start to produce cheap energy by themself.
I also said govt. is planning to introduce new taxes on renewable energy investments which is truly insane......
See..... to follow the discussion you need to have Pakistani dynamics in mind..... hence i see no room for you in this discussion and i don't expect any constructive contribution as i have never seen one.
If you love PK govt. somuch than i'm willing to excahange one dr. singh with threesome of Gillan, Zardari and Sharif.

I hope this brief is enough to clear the confusion spread by you. If you need further clarification try to find a resonable engineer in india and pay him his consultancy fee to get more technical advice or use hindi forums as those will be more trust worthy for you.
 
.
I suggest you try and learn how the technology is changing, and finding acceptance in Europe.

As I pointed earlier, environment and safety conscious Denmark is building many garbage burning plants in upscale communities of doctors and lawyers. If it was such a serious hazard, Danes would be the last to embrace such plants.

Europe Finds Cleaner Energy Source by Burning Trash - NYTimes.com

As to the investment required in garbage collection and plant building, it'll prove to be a lot less than the cost of noisy and polluting private diesel generators being used in a lot of communities in Karachi. A community based solution will also obviate dependence on the incompetent and corrupt government to supply electricity.




Before you posted about Denmark, did you even consider the purchasing power, middle class income of Denmark with Pakistan?

Pakistanis don't think in investing in such projects.

Talking about a certain technology gaining ground somewhere doesn't mean Pakistan would do or could do the same.

France has 80% power generated by nuclear power.
USA doesn't but still relies on oil, gas and coal. But still both the countries don't face acute power shortages.


As i said, powering communities in Karachi would be nightmare. You would need acres of land.

One such project was the DHA Cogen plant, about which you can read here and may be able to concur why such projects are not the game for the greedy rich people in Pakistan.......

DAWN.COM | Local | KARACHI: Mystery surrounds DHA Cogen plant


Where will the residents get 115 million USD? Loan? Who would pay the interest? Collecting revenue? Maintainance etc. 10 acres of land, now where can you find that in a residential area in KARACHI? Plus the plant is not enough for the DHA itself.

Yes, the Germans, Americans are lucky they can get easy credit, at least used to before 2008, so some house hold set up wind turbines. Selling excess electricity to the grid. But in Pakistan, where the main grid is not capable enough, how do you expect the inefficient utility companies like KESC, PEPCO to maintain the records, billing etc. They can't handle their own ''Kundas'' let alone community based power plant integration.



It's like saying why can't we have Beaches like USA/Europe in Pakistan? (I hope you get what i mean). Our society and it's thinking is different.
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom