Khatam e nabowat bill passed

[Azadkashmir]

Who ?

some of the folks on pdf

I strongly disagree with that.. We enjoy the fruit of our hard work, nothing has been handed to us. You live in Canada, you know that full well.

The first generation who came to the UK came as migrant workers, it was quid pro quo - the UK needed workers, these people needed jobs - it was not a favour for anyone. These people worked and paid into the system. When they then got married and had kids, those kids took out of the same system their parents paid into. This is no different to anyone else who lives in the UK.

The only thing we should be greatful for is that we live in a country where condesending attitudes of how you owe a debt to a social construct do not exist. Society exists to enable the citizen, it is created by citizens for citizens, it is a service, nobody owes it a debt. We live in a country where anyone who exists contributes into society one way or another, that's all that's required of them. Nothing is a golden cow, not democracy, not secularism, not religion.

Also the success of British society aren't built on secularism alone. The attraction of this country to anyone is the economy (nobody comes for the weather). That was built on Empire and capitalism. The good living conditions and workers rights are down to socialism, we can thank the emergence of the modern Labour party and the unions for that. Also we can than the UN and the human rights acts too, as well as the EU and it's expansion.

The fact of the matter is, the state for the most part has always been a tool of the elites, everything the common man has, was hard fought for (including by our immigrant parents and grandparents).

I think a lot of the North American brothers lose sight of this. Correct me if i'm wrong but most of you guys (and the older generations who migrated) were from educated and upper or middle class backgrounds. A lot of people move to America for better lifestyles or having higher aspirations (there is nothing wrong with it). You just need to get that the majority of the UK dispora are here because they were hungry, literally and practically. They started at the bottom and some people aren't too far from there even now. It's not secularism they went to the UK for, it's for bread - which they work hard to earn.

I've got no beef with secularism, in fact i consider myself politically closer to the liberals and socialists rather than the conservatives, but you have to aknowledge there is a trend in our Pakistani community to be fully fledged in whatever they do. The desi secular is no different, they'll step on your throat if you say anything they don't agree with, same way the crazy mullah will.

i am with you on this, american and others pak dont like british paks.lolz.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

That's terrible. How will we differentiate between Muslim and Ahmedi/Mirzai/Qaidiyani?

The way do in UK is best.

but it is the responsbility of the government

No. Like in UK. And it has not hurt me in UK. It has not hurt you in UK. And the proof is you. It has not in any way degraded your faith. Or has it?

 

[Well.wisher]

some of the folks on pdf




i am with you on this, american and others pak dont like british paks.lolz.

I thought u talkin abt abdus salam .

 

[Syed1.]

I strongly disagree with that.. We enjoy the fruit of our hard work, nothing has been handed to us. You live in Canada, you know that full well.

The first generation who came to the UK came as migrant workers, it was quid pro quo - the UK needed workers, these people needed jobs - it was not a favour for anyone. These people worked and paid into the system. When they then got married and had kids, those kids took out of the same system their parents paid into. This is no different to anyone else who lives in the UK.

The only thing we should be greatful for is that we live in a country where condesending attitudes of how you owe a debt to a social construct do not exist. Society exists to enable the citizen, it is created by citizens for citizens, it is a service, nobody owes it a debt. We live in a country where anyone who exists contributes into society one way or another, that's all that's required of them. Nothing is a golden cow, not democracy, not secularism, not religion.

Also the success of British society aren't built on secularism alone. The attraction of this country to anyone is the economy (nobody comes for the weather). That was built on Empire and capitalism. The good living conditions and workers rights are down to socialism, we can thank the emergence of the modern Labour party and the unions for that. Also we can than the UN and the human rights acts too, as well as the EU and it's expansion.

The fact of the matter is, the state for the most part has always been a tool of the elites, everything the common man has, was hard fought for (including by our immigrant parents and grandparents).

I think a lot of the North American brothers lose sight of this. Correct me if i'm wrong but most of you guys (and the older generations who migrated) were from educated and upper or middle class backgrounds. A lot of people move to America for better lifestyles or having higher aspirations (there is nothing wrong with it). You just need to get that the majority of the UK dispora are here because they were hungry, literally and practically. They started at the bottom and some people aren't too far from there even now. It's not secularism they went to the UK for, it's for bread - which they work hard to earn.

I've got no beef with secularism, in fact i consider myself politically closer to the liberals and socialists rather than the conservatives, but you have to aknowledge there is a trend in our Pakistani community to be fully fledged in whatever they do. The desi secular is no different, they'll step on your throat if you say anything they don't agree with, same way the crazy mullah will.

You took the discussion to a completely different direction. Yes migration happens for economic reasons and in the West you can rapidly rise through the ranks of society if you are smart and are willing to put in the effort and your religion, skin color or background has no effect on it.

My point was more with regards to "secularism". Majority of Western society is secular. Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc etc everybody is allowed to practice their religion whichever way they deem fit as long as they abide by the laws of the land. Overseas Pakistanis are ok with this when they are in Western countries but in Pakistan they think about secularism and immediately think tauba tauba, secular = jahunammi. Why?

Any person should be free to practice his/her religion as they deem fit. What someone's religion is shouldn't be the business of the state.

 

[313ghazi]

The way do in UK is best.

No. Like in UK. And it has not hurt me in UK. It has not hurt you in UK. And the proof is you. It has not in any way degraded your faith. Or has it?

Actually amongst the idiots and the sheep their ideas are becoming more normalised. They are identifying themselves as Muslims and misguiding youngsters. I have no issue with them propagating their religion, but they clearly are as Muslim as I am Christian.

Besides the UK as we both know is a secular country and has the same laws for people of all religions. Pakistan is an Islamic country and has different laws for Muslims. For example non Muslims are able to legally buy alchohol. It is a legal matter, therefore there needs to be a clear legal definition of who is a Muslim or not.

 

[cloud4000]

Anther bill passed a box " to ask believe in Khatam e nabowat" will be removed. Or do you believe in khatam e nabowat or not question will be removed.

Is this question asked only when Pakistan apply for a passport? And only for Muslims? Never understood why such a question is asked for passports but no where else.

 

[Verve]

Don't really know the details of this bill but seems kinda ironic that you would question secularism especially when you are enjoying its fruits while living in the UK. If UK wasn't secular you wouldn't have been able to freely and openly practice your religion. Seems like you want a different set of rules for Pakistan and a different set of rules for the actual place you call home.

I want an Islamic Pakistan as per Jinnah and Iqbal - if you remember them? And I have never had any issues to freely and openly practice my deen. I studied in a christian school in Pakistan, heck my christian teachers didn't have such issues either.

And my temporary residence in UK has nothing to do with the fruits of secularism. UK is not home, Pakistan is.

 

[313ghazi]

Overseas Pakistanis are ok with this when they are in Western countries but in Pakistan they think about secularism and immediately think tauba tauba, secular = jahunammi. Why?

I don't think that at all, my "beef" (for want of a better word) is not with secularism, but the specific extreme reaction that desi secularists have to certain things.

I don't want secularism as the model of the Pakistani state, but defintely do want the tolerance that some secular societies have. The UK is one of the greatest example of a society where secularism has provided a platform for religious freedom, but many European societies have become extreme and under the guise of secularism curbed religious freedoms, most famously the niqab bans, and in particular France's ban on wearing any form of religious clothing in public places.

Pakistan was created to a Muslim country and to have Islamic values. I'd like my country to have that (though in principle not a lot of that is practised at government level at least). Tolerance is not exclusive to secularism, there are umpteen examples of tolerance present in the Quran and sunnah that are ignored, like most of the rest of it, by the Pakistani government and by extension society.

 

[HAIDER]

Is this question asked only when Pakistan apply for a passport? And only for Muslims? Never understood why such a question is asked for passports but no where else.

It's under election bill 2017.

 

[litman]

This will be challenged in the supreme court immediately. But the positive aspect is that PMLn govt will seal its fate as religious people will hate them more and you know that vast majority of Pakistanis are religious. The so called libturds are only found of PDF and other anonymous forums online. The double faced hypocrite vermin can't wear it in the public.

religion is also impure in this country of "pure". these mullahs were bashing nawaz after the death of mumtaz qadri and when their pockets were filled by the ruling party they openly supported pmln in recent elections. everyone has a price in pakistan.

pak's only way of survival is to act according to quran. unfortunately pak has never been an islamic country.

 

[313ghazi]

Is this question asked only when Pakistan apply for a passport? And only for Muslims? Never understood why such a question is asked for passports but no where else.

It's all political really. The first time i came across it I was bemused too. When applying for a Pakistani passport you are asked to identify yourself as Muslim or non Muslim (Pakistan has some laws which apply only to Muslims).

Now the Qaidinyani etc self identify as Muslim even though they reject a core belief of Islam (that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the final prophet). It's similar to being a vegetarian but eating chicken too. By definition that doesn't make you a vegetarian if you also eat chicken.

Pakistan passed laws in the 60's or something to constitutionally declare that anyone who does not consider the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the final prophet cannot be considered by definition a Muslim. Since then anyone who declares themselves Muslim, must also sign a declaration that they consider the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the final prophet.

Conservatives in Pakistan are concerned that Ahmadis or whatever are actively converting people to their "misguidance". That community does in fact have a very active "conversion" policy and work hard in an organised way to do that. The religious folk are threatened by that (especially since a lot of our population is religious by association but with limited understanding) and therefore want them to be clearly identified as non Muslim.

I think honestly it's more politics than anything else, after all we can quite easily sit around all day telling who is shia, deobandi, wahhabi, barelvi etc, we could do the same for them, but they picked a fight with the religious right wing in Pakistan and they have a lot of clout.

 

[Imran Khan]

gov should having 0.00 interest in peoples believes . every human must be free to believes whatever he/she believe

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Besides the UK as we both know is a secular country and has the same laws for people of all religions.

And the point I made was? It works wonders for me, you and the next guy. It certainly has not prevented you from being as good a Muslim as you can be. If UK with it's secular milieu had in any way degraded your ability to be as good a Muslim as you are - I am sure you would have shipped out to some more "Islamic" state like maybe Pakistan.

After all faith comes first - right?

 

[313ghazi]

And the point I made was? It works wonders for me, you and the next guy. It certainly has not prevented you from being as good a Muslim as you can be. If UK with it's secular milieu had in any way degraded your ability to be as good a Muslim as you are - I am sure you would have shipped out to some more "Islamic" state like maybe Pakistan.

After all faith comes first - right?

The point you made was defunct. I addressed how it is not universal and would be legally difficult in Pakistan. You conveniently chose to ignore that.

 

[El Sidd]

And the point I made was? It works wonders for me, you and the next guy. It certainly has not prevented you from being as good a Muslim as you can be. If UK with it's secular milieu had in any way degraded your ability to be as good a Muslim as you are - I am sure you would have shipped out to some more "Islamic" state like maybe Pakistan.

After all faith comes first - right?

Why not i ask?

Islam gaurantees all of that.

Dude its just a desi thing.

A German court ruled that a coffee and a loaf of bread doesn't count as breakfast.

Our prophet preferred a healthy breakfast.

We are just not cut out to follow any law.

Its just the tag that irks everyone.

Change the name and get it over with. But you cannot do that either without a crisis.


So why not just accept and move forward?

Why is it an ego thing nowadays

Why does everyone afraid of a common Pakistani Muslim.

This is pure political stunt.