Khatam e nabowat bill passed

[Jungibaaz]

yeah, he was a mad man who fought for a muslim majority land only to impose secular state on it.

why are you so ignorant of rest of his speeches? Can you not read and comprehend those? Some physical or mental ability problem?

I was quite clear there, he wanted an Islamic republic, but not as the person I was replying to was describing, where you have an Islamic republic where religious minorities are excluded from participation.

Clear enough or do you have serious comprehension issues?

 

[shah_123]

What's the need to disclose one's religious beliefs? Religious beliefs are personal, most Pakistanis are Muslims and therefore believe in khatm-e-nabuwwat anyway. More importantly, how does any of this effect your own faith?

Pakistan wasn't built as a secular republic, nor was Islam used as a tool to subvert democracy and civilian institutions the way Zia did, and nor did Jinnah envisage the full implementation of Sharia the way mullahs who then opposed the creating of Pakistan would have us believe.
.

You mean he envisaged half or quarter implementation of Sharia, please give reference to his speech where he envisaged half or quarter implementation of Sharia.

Quaid's vision is clear from his following speech i.e to follow Prophet of Islam and you will agree with me that Prophet of Islam implemented Sharia fully.

"Who am I to give you a constitution? The prophet of Islam had given us a constitution 1,300 years ago. We have to simply follow and implement it, and based on it we have to establish in our state Islam’s great system of governance.”

 

[Verve]

I was quite clear there, he wanted an Islamic republic, but not as the person I was replying to was describing, where you have an Islamic republic where religious minorities are excluded from participation.

Clear enough or do you have serious comprehension issues?

A non-muslim can not lead a muslim nation. We are a muslim majority Pakistan and muslim majority will have a muslim leader. Is that too difficult to comprehend?

 

[Jungibaaz]

A non-muslim can not lead a muslim nation. We are a muslim majority Pakistan and muslim majority will have a muslim leader. Is that too difficult to comprehend?

Your objection is noted, please tell us, should minorities be barred from holding any political position of authority? How about a non-Muslim finance minister, or any MNA? Where do you draw the line, or do you like our friend here think that Jinnah wanted no participation at all for any religious minority?

 

[Verve]

Your objection is noted, please tell us, should minorities be barred from holding any political position of authority? How about a non-Muslim finance minister, or any MNA? Where do you draw the line, or do you like our friend here think that Jinnah wanted no participation at all for any religious minority?

Not for Finance Minister role (a non-muslim managing the financial & banking system based on Islam - NO!) however I have no issues with the minorities being part of the team of technocrats behind the FM.

MNA on minority seats and anywhere else they can win from, that's fine. White in the flag is for exactly this.

 

[Jungibaaz]

You mean he envisaged half or quarter implementation of Sharia, please give reference to his speech where he envisaged half or quarter implementation of Sharia.

Stop strawmanning, I said no such thing, so how could you even ask me to quantify an absurdity like that?

Quaid's vision is clear from his following speech i.e to follow Prophet of Islam and you will agree with me that Prophet of Islam implemented Sharia fully.

"Who am I to give you a constitution? The prophet of Islam had given us a constitution 1,300 years ago. We have to simply follow and implement it, and based on it we have to establish in our state Islam’s great system of governance.”

That quote talks about an Islamic system for Pakistan, I agree. What it does not say is what you asserted here:

But the business of state will be Islam, refer to Quaid's other speeches. --- and an Islamic state doesn't allow non Muslims to interfere/meddle in it's affairs.

You've attributed this to Jinnah for no reason at all. Here is a direct quote of Jinnah refuting what you said:

Question : Could you as Governor General make a brief statement on the minorities problems?

The Quaid: At present I am only Governor-General designate. We will assume for moment that on August 15, I shall be really the Governor-General of Pakistan. On that assumption, let me tell you that I shall not depart from what I said repeatedly with regard to the minorities. Every time I spoke about the minorities I meant what I said and what I said I meant.

Minorities to whichever community they may belong; will be safeguarded. Their religion or faith or belief will be secure. There will be no interference of any kind with their freedom of worship. They will have their protection with regard to their religion, faith, their life, their culture. They will be, in all respects, the citizens of Pakistan without any distinction of caste or creed.

They will have their rights and privileges and no doubt, along with it goes the obligation of citizenship. Therefore, the minorities have their responsibilities also and they will play their part in the affairs of this state. As long as the minorities are loyal to the State and owe true allegiance and as long as I have any power, they need have no apprehension of any kind.

Here in the part in bold Jinnah is addressing minorities and their status as full citizens, no qualifying statement whatsoever, they are complete and total citizens indistinguishable from Muslim citizens.

In the part in red, he clearly states that he intends them to serve DIRECTLY in the affairs of the state. I have quoted him verbatim.

You were wrong to attribute exclusion of minorities by the Pakistani state to Jinnah, and other members who said the same in previous quotes were wrong.

Not for Finance Minister role (a non-muslim managing the financial & banking system based on Islam - NO!) however I have no issues with the minorities being part of the team of technocrats behind the FM.

MNA on minority seats and anywhere else they can win from, that's fine. White in the flag is for exactly this.

I personally don't a draw a line on to what extent a non-Muslim can participate. A non-Muslim head of state of Pakistan is highly unlikely given 97% being Muslim, but I wouldn't oppose it in principle and I certainly wouldn't have the state apparatus defining such a limitation on minorities. I can't accuse you here of excluding minorities, as long as you allow them to vote, protest, participate, have the same legal rights and seek political participation, that's good enough. I take issue with what others were saying about not allowing minorities to meddle in state affairs at all.

 

[shah_123]

Jinnah did not intend nor was Pakistan early on an Islamic state as you might describe it, that quote is enough to conclude his opinions on

So he was just playing around for fun with these speeches:

"Pakistan is the premier Islamic State and the fifth largest in the world. . . The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of men, justice and fairplay to everybody.’’ ( Radio Broadcast to the People of the United States of America, February 1948)
..............
Can you read Premier Islamic State?
So it's clear from his speeches what he intended (I don't need anybody telling me what he intended when his speeches are in front of me)

Now it's clear what his intentions were i.e an Islamic state, I would advise you to read some good books, by classical scholars of Islam, on the functioning of an Islamic state.

 

[Verve]

I personally don't a draw a line on to what extent a non-Muslim can participate. A non-Muslim head of state of Pakistan is highly unlikely given 97% being Muslim, but I wouldn't oppose it in principle and I certainly wouldn't have the state apparatus defining such a limitation on minorities. I can't accuse you here of excluding minorities, as long as you allow them to vote, protest, participate, have the same legal rights and seek political participation, that's good enough. I take issue with what others were saying about not allowing minorities to meddle in state affairs at all.

'Play their part in the affairs of the state' doesn't mean meddling. Minorities to be encouraged to participate and add to the progression of Pakistan. Meddling for me would me for minorities to demand breaches to the boundaries defined in Islam.

Constitution is Islam, Jinnah was clear on that. And Islam is clear on the protection of minorities and their rights.

 

[Jaanbaz]

After all faith comes first - right?

Not before he has produced 10 kids and collected his housing benefits and tax credits.

 

[Jungibaaz]

So he was just playing around for fun with these speeches:

"Pakistan is the premier Islamic State and the fifth largest in the world. . . The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principles of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of men, justice and fairplay to everybody.’’ ( Radio Broadcast to the People of the United States of America, February 1948)
..............
Can you read Premier Islamic State?
So it's clear from his speeches what he intended (I don't need anybody telling me what he intended when his speeches are in front of me)

Now it's clear what his intentions were i.e an Islamic state, I would advise you to read some good books, by classical scholars of Islam, on the functioning of an Islamic state.

Doesn't matter what other quotes you dig up of his on Islamic system and what you believe that entails. Here he said it loud and clear, non-minorities participate in the state and are not excluded.

Refute this or don't bother with the rest, I never argued anything else with you beside this point.

They will have their rights and privileges and no doubt, along with it goes the obligation of citizenship. Therefore, the minorities have their responsibilities also and they will play their part in the affairs of this state. As long as the minorities are loyal to the State and owe true allegiance and as long as I have any power, they need have no apprehension of any kind.

 

[CriticalThought]

Stop strawmanning, I said no such thing, so how could you even ask me to quantify an absurdity like that?




That quote talks about an Islamic system for Pakistan, I agree. What it does not say is what you asserted here:



You've attributed this to Jinnah for no reason at all. Here is a direct quote of Jinnah refuting what you said:



Here in the part in bold Jinnah is addressing minorities and their status as full citizens, no qualifying statement whatsoever, they are complete and total citizens indistinguishable from Muslim citizens.

In the part in red, he clearly states that he intends them to serve DIRECTLY in the affairs of the state. I have quoted him verbatim.

You were wrong to attribute exclusion of minorities by the Pakistani state to Jinnah, and other members who said the same in previous quotes were wrong.



I personally don't a draw a line on to what extent a non-Muslim can participate. A non-Muslim head of state of Pakistan is highly unlikely given 97% being Muslim, but I wouldn't oppose it in principle and I certainly wouldn't have the state apparatus defining such a limitation on minorities. I can't accuse you here of excluding minorities, as long as you allow them to vote, protest, participate, have the same legal rights and seek political participation, that's good enough. I take issue with what others were saying about not allowing minorities to meddle in state affairs at all.

Just to clarify, when I was arguing about the PM position, in no way was I proposing they should not be elected or cannot get representation in a democratic system. They should have special seats and if a community is large enough, they should be able to vote amongst themselves only to elect their own representative who can explain their problems etc.

I am myself a proponent of a puritanical system in which entire non-Muslim areas would be governed by them with the state only responsible for security, finance, provision of amenities etc. The actual governance and administration of those areas should be entirely under their control. Their responsibility being to be always loyal to the state and not engage in any subversive activities either alone or in collusion with enemies of the state. It should not be possible to conscript them. Their lives, their property and their lands shall be sacrosanct and cannot be usurped, or otherwise forcefully taken from them as long as they are law abiding citizens.

 

[HAIDER]

There you go, secularist wanna be losers

Stop dreaming about a liberal secular Pakistan. It’s not happening. Ever. Inshallah!

View attachment 429391

@Syed1. @HAIDER @The Sandman



“Can’t even think of removing Khatam-e-Nabooyat clause, Astagfirullah. It’s part of constitution itself.”

PML(N).

May be close this retarded thread now?

@Admins

Shiekh Rasheed has openly challenging PMLn in the parliament speech yesterday and has already been posted in this thread. These tweets has no value. PMLn govt need to answer Shiekh Rasheed through official platform or use the parliament platform. Until then there is not justification of closing this thread.
Do you want me to paste PMLn tweets in this forum..... how much lies they have posted already. Or you want me to post QATARI KA KHAT wala tweet too....

 

[Jungibaaz]

'Play their part in the affairs of the state' doesn't mean meddling. Minorities to be encouraged to participate and add to the progression of Pakistan. Meddling for me would me for minorities to demand breaches to the boundaries defined in Islam.

Constitution is Islam, Jinnah was clear on that. And Islam is clear on the protection of minorities and their rights.

Subversion of the state, if that is meddling, then I agree, but then you cannot limit that to minorities, it becomes true of any person, Muslim or Non-Muslim. Zia allowed Pakistan to become much more conservative and attempted to further tie Islam as he saw it to the state as much as possible, yet from day one his role as leader wasn't only based on a constitutional violation, he suspended the whole constitution and committed high treason which caries the death penalty. Also, I am quite sure Jinnah would have allowed reforms of any constitution of Pakistan.

 

[shah_123]

Stop strawmanning, I said no such thing, so how could you even ask me to quantify an absurdity like that?

What else response you expected for an absurd statement like " nor Jinnah envisage the full implementation of Sharia"

I mean, either Sharia is implemented or it is not -

 

[CriticalThought]

You've attributed this to Jinnah for no reason at all. Here is a direct quote of Jinnah refuting what you said:

----------------------------------------------
Question : Could you as Governor General make a brief statement on the minorities problems?

The Quaid: At present I am only Governor-General designate. We will assume for moment that on August 15, I shall be really the Governor-General of Pakistan. On that assumption, let me tell you that I shall not depart from what I said repeatedly with regard to the minorities. Every time I spoke about the minorities I meant what I said and what I said I meant.

Minorities to whichever community they may belong; will be safeguarded. Their religion or faith or belief will be secure. There will be no interference of any kind with their freedom of worship. They will have their protection with regard to their religion, faith, their life, their culture. They will be, in all respects, the citizens of Pakistan without any distinction of caste or creed.

They will have their rights and privileges and no doubt, along with it goes the obligation of citizenship. Therefore, the minorities have their responsibilities also and they will play their part in the affairs of this state. As long as the minorities are loyal to the State and owe true allegiance and as long as I have any power, they need have no apprehension of any kind.
----------------------------------------------

The quote above allows them freedom of worship, citizenship, and acknowledges they 'have their responsibilities also and they will play their part in the affairs of this state'. Just the words 'have their responsibilities' suggest that their responsibilities are different from others. Based on these special responsibilities, they will play their part in the affairs of this state. He is literally carving out a role for them.

Kaboom. Future terrorist right there, I hope the Australian SAS shove a big danda in you.

Mind your language, mister. There is no need for personal attack.