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Kayani meets Sarkozy: France wants to be Pakistan’s strategic partner

now now !!!! the stuff about france offering a india style nuke deal - only ur minister is claiming it . no one from france is !!!!!

and the willy suff was stared by ur -beloved all ways sensible- BaburCM- you can start your advice with him
ur post gave u away it shows how much u cannot digest anything pakistan achieves as far as ur childish statement ive not heard the foreign minister say we have a deal like india as this would be very immature, why are u so proud of ur deal ,we have other channels of getting what we need and our missile program is years ahead of india

i didnt talk about willies but if i had to take an educated guess id say urs is small since its getting to you so bad
 
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now now !!!! the stuff about france offering a india style nuke deal - only ur minister is claiming it . no one from france is !!!!!

I hope u can read urdu!



Translation

French diplomat for pak is saying that we are offereing pakistan a nuclear deal bcoz we want to make our long term friend!

Source - Daily Aaj Kal
 
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France has vested interests in Pakistan and region, whats wrong if she wants to extend it by enhancing ties with existing partners? PAF houses largest number of Mirages ever purchased by a foreign airforce, PN uses french subs and is looking for more. Sagem is to become a partner soon in supplying avionics suite for the JF-17 Block II and FC-20, so there's already an intense partnership and will only grow in strength.

France is one of few countries who'll sell anything to anyone, her export policy is not Indian-centric...it never was!
If Sarkozy sees a role for Pakistan in strategic alliance with Paris, it will only come with military benefits.
I´d say go for it!
 
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Meeting Pakistan’s Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Kayani, in Paris on Tuesday, French President Nicholas Sarkozy expressed his country’s desire for a “strategic partnership” with Pakistan. This remark supplemented the earlier verbal commitment given to President Asif Zardari that France would provide civilian nuclear technology to Pakistan “the same way the United States had to India”. Pakistani officers and their French counterparts discussed plans to provide training for Pakistani officers at NATO training centres, and reviewed the status of NATO’s main supply route to landlocked Afghanistan.
Is this some kind of fallout from the “distancing” of the United States from France and possibly Germany in the European Union, signalling a differentiation of global perspectives within the Atlantic alliance? Is this a continuation of the bad blood created in Europe by the Bush administration when it attacked Iraq in the face of some of the most lucid and determined opposition from France inside the UN Security Council? Or is this a “sharing of the burden” between two NATO allies? (Note reference to NATO’s supply route to Afghanistan.) What President Bush achieved with India with the nuclear deal was not universally acclaimed inside the US. Has it been decided to let France bear the burden of “balancing” the US-India strategic partnership with a Pak-French strategic partnership?

In Pakistan, many commentators would be inclined to read transatlantic “rivalry” into the development. This will go very well with the grooves of practice developed by Pakistan’s management of foreign policy during the Cold War: build military muscle by siding with one of the two global rivals and keep the relationship going by always appearing to reserve the option of “switching” the relationship through the doctrine of “bilateralism”. Needless to say, this Cold War opportunism was in tune with the doctrine of “realism” in the United States and its European partners. Would this be a correct either/or approach, based on the various theories of “ditching” and “switching”?
France, no doubt, is one of the many American partners who criticised the 2006 Indo-US nuclear deal, more or less on the lines that former President Jimmy Carter laid out: “[The deal will send] uncertain signals to other countries, including North Korea and Iran, and may encourage technologically capable nations to choose the nuclear option. The only substantive commitment among nuclear-weapon states and others is the 1970 Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), accepted by the five original nuclear powers and 182 other nations. Its key objective is to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons and weapons technology...and to further the goal of achieving nuclear disarmament”.

Pakistan will recall that in the 1970s, France had to bow out, under American pressure, of a contract to build a nuclear enrichment plant in Pakistan. But in 2009, things have changed. President Sarkozy has ridden to victory on the promise of reducing French antagonism towards America and to prune down France’s state-dominated socialist economy. At the same time, however, he wants to assert the “difference” between how the Europeans (especially France and Germany) think about the laissez-faire capitalism of the “Washington consensus”. On the other hand, on the question of “Western values”, there is no difference, and France’s relations with Pakistan will not therefore be on any either/or basis. Linking up with France will not mean causing the US to ditch Pakistan or to punish it, as often happened during the Cold War.

The US Secretary of State, Ms Hilary Clinton, after clinching $110 million for Pakistani refugees this week, has repeated her charge against earlier American administrations that it “ditched” Pakistan after using it in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union. A big Kerry-Lugar “package” of economic assistance is in the pipeline in the US, apart from the US-mediated $5 billion from the Friends of Pakistan group of countries. As for France, its ambassador has voiced the strongest objection in Islamabad to Nizam-e Adl in Swat while President Sarkozy has pledged more French troops for the NATO forces in Afghanistan.

It is too early to say what next steps will be taken. Pakistan is a “non-NATO” ally of the US. Some may think that this will bring Pakistan close to the status of the European states and Turkey who count as allies. Others may think India has moved closer to the US by becoming its “strategic partner”. Will there be a Pak-French nuclear treaty and will it “separate” Pakistan’s military and civilian nuclear assets? Will the nuclear suppliers’ club “exempt” Pakistan the way it did India? All these are questions waiting to be answered.
 
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Neo please,


All this talk of France as a strategic partner is bs, it is not a genuine partnership. What makes you think all of a sudden France wants to open up to Pakistan and become our great trusted European ally that truly cares for Pakistan. What you see is the Arms industry in France pushing the government and military to expand ties with Pakistan for financial gain, the French arms industry understands Pakistan is in the market for modern weapons and war machines, and the French arms industry is willing to supply, that is all.


There is no real love nor brotherhood between secular and modern European France and Asian Islamic Republic of Pakistan. History proves it too. In the past France had wanted to supply Pakistan fighter jets (to my memory), but the US pressured France and immediately backed off the deal and we didn't hear from them until many years. If there were our true genuine friends and allies or had any interest to become one they would do what a true friend does like China defy the US orders and continue to sell, I understand France being a western country puts more pressure on France not to do so, but all roads lead to this, France is not seeking a true genuine friendship with Pakistan neither are they looking for hostility.


They also offer the nation to our East with war technology and modern weapons, what does that tell you, France's arms industry loves the Arms race of South Asia.



It is only business.
 
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Neo please,


All this talk of France as a strategic partner is bs, it is not a genuine partnership. What makes you think all of a sudden France wants to open up to Pakistan and become our great trusted European ally that truly cares for Pakistan. What you see is the Arms industry in France pushing the government and military to expand ties with Pakistan for financial gain, the French arms industry understands Pakistan is in the market for modern weapons and war machines, and the French arms industry is willing to supply, that is all.

French influence in our military has been there since the start. I bet you weren't following. Our entire submarine fleet is French. The modernization of our Agosta-90B was done with the help of French engineers. France could've sold us its latest submarine if we wouldn't have chosen the U-214.

There is no real love nor brotherhood between secular and modern European France and Asian Islamic Republic of Pakistan. History proves it too. In the past France had wanted to supply Pakistan fighter jets (to my memory), but the US pressured France and immediately backed off the deal and we didn't hear from them until many years. If there were our true genuine friends and allies or had any interest to become one they would do what a true friend does like China defy the US orders and continue to sell, I understand France being a western country puts more pressure on France not to do so, but all roads lead to this, France is not seeking a true genuine friendship with Pakistan neither are they looking for hostility.

What's with all the 'Friend' talk? No one's nobody's FRIEND. Everyone is each other's STRATEGIC partner. Pakistan is America's 'Strategic' ally. Do you think that we've always been treated as 'friends' by the Americans? India is Israel's strategic ally for the procurement of latest military hardware which in future would be used against Pakistan/China, Russia is India's strategic partner against the American influence and domination via Pakistan in central Asia. (Even before the fall of Communsim). They're not friends with each other, they all follow their own interests.

Chinese cooperation is there for its own interest as well. Regional territorial disputes shaped the Pakistani and Chinese strategic partnership. Do you even know why Gwadar port was built or why it saw heavy Chinese investment? It's not because they're our friends, it's because that port would greatly benefit china itself! Because it opens up an entirely new, low cost trading route for the Chinese. They're not doing us a 'Friendly' favour by providing us with military hardware, they're doing so because they've always greatly benefited by keeping close ties with us.


Gwadar trade route for China.

I'm not saying that brotherly relations between Pakistan and China don't exist, I'm simply saying that those relations benefit each other greatly which keeps the wheel spinning, nothing more.



They also offer the nation to our East with war technology and modern weapons, what does that tell you, France's arms industry loves the Arms race of South Asia.


It is only business.

Care to backup your claims? What arms race did France initiated?

And as far as France offering India with military technology is concerned, The United States is offering its latest FA/18 Superhornets (With TOT) and F-16IN to India via their MRCA competition.

That is FAR worse than ANYTHING France has ever offered to our neighbour. But does that mean that we're not America's strategic ally any more? We still are. Stop living in a delusion that France is only trying to get money out of us. Everyone in the WORLD knows that we don't have any money. Whatever France is offering is beneficial for us and should be taken as a key new strategic move in the region, not just a business deal.
 
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France has vested interests in Pakistan and region, whats wrong if she wants to extend it by enhancing ties with existing partners? PAF houses largest number of Mirages ever purchased by a foreign airforce, PN uses french subs and is looking for more. Sagem is to become a partner soon in supplying avionics suite for the JF-17 Block II and FC-20, so there's already an intense partnership and will only grow in strength.

France is one of few countries who'll sell anything to anyone, her export policy is not Indian-centric...it never was!
If Sarkozy sees a role for Pakistan in strategic alliance with Paris, it will only come with military benefits.
I´d say go for it!

"whats wrong if she wants to extend it by enhancing ties with existing partners? "

There's nothing wrong unless these "enhancing ties" are misconstrued and seen as a true genuine friendship with France and Pakistan.


Now it seems you've made a contradiction in your post.

"France is one of few countries who'll sell anything to anyone"

Then you said,

"If Sarkozy sees a role for Pakistan in strategic alliance with Paris"

Well the alliance isn't so "strategic" if in your own words "France [is a country] who'll sell anything to anyone"....

Part of a strategic relationship is having control of business dealings and cooperation in the technology sector (in this military case), but France is open to sell it's supplies to countries who can afford it. There's nothing strategic about that, it's as strategic as a customer-and-supplier relationship. When I think of strategic I think of US-UK or US-Israel, Sino-Pak, Germany-Italy, anyways...

No need to get all warm inside about this news, it's nothing new just France wanting to make money from the South Asian Arms race, while we spend our millions on weapons and they spend their millions in more helpful parts of human development...

I'm not saying we shouldn't have ties with France, in fact I think we should. But what I am emphasizing is the true nature of this limited relationship, yes we should build our military capability to a great extent no doubt about it, but remember the other things we must also pursue...


Thanks
 
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French influence in our military has been there since the start. I bet you weren't following. Our entire submarine fleet is French. The modernization of our Agosta-90B was done with the help of French engineers. France could've sold us its latest submarine if we wouldn't have chosen the U-214.
Yes I am well aware of France's help and support for our Navy & Air force procurements, it is much appreciated. I am not saying we shouldn't have ties with France, I just don't want others to misconstrued this has true friendship or France really cares for Pakistan...


What's with all the 'Friend' talk? No one's nobody's FRIEND.Not really, there are nations with true friendships that have lasted for decades Sino-Pak, US-UK, US-Israel, there is people to people connection as well...Everyone is each other's STRATEGIC partnerTrue mutual partnerships. Pakistan is America's 'Strategic' ally. Do you think that we've always been treated as 'friends' by the Americans? India is Israel's strategic ally for the procurement of latest military hardware which in future would be used against Pakistan/China, Russia is India's strategic partner against the American influence and domination via Pakistan in central Asia. (Even before the fall of Communsim). They're not friends with each other, they all follow their own interests. Yes I know this, please read earlier point I made...

Chinese cooperation is there for its own interest as well. Regional territorial disputes shaped the Pakistani and Chinese strategic partnership. Do you even know why Gwadar port was built or why it saw heavy Chinese investment? It's not because they're our friends, it's because that port would greatly benefit china itself! Because it opens up an entirely new, low cost trading route for the Chinese. They're not doing us a 'Friendly' favour by providing us with military hardware, they're doing so because they've always greatly benefited by keeping close ties with us.


Gwadar trade route for China.

I'm not saying that brotherly relations between Pakistan and China don't exist, I'm simply saying that those relations benefit each other greatly which keeps the wheel spinning, nothing more.





Care to backup your claims? What arms race did France initiated?

EDIT: I've never said France initiated an arms race, but there is no doubt that their Arms Industry makes millions when Indian and Pakistan are preparing or waging War...That is the point. Maybe if they were our true strategic partner, they would help resolve Kashmir dispute as they do hold considerable influence with India at the military level. Maybe they could help prevent further Pakistan-India conflicts like China does...Look at it from this side

And as far as France offering India with military technology is concerned, The United States is offering it's latest FA/18 Superhornets (With TOT) and F-16IN to India via their MRCA competition.

That is FAR worse than ANYTHING France has ever offered to our neighbour. But does that mean that we're not America's strategic ally any more? We still are. Stop living in a delusion that France is only trying to get money out of us. Everyone in the WORLD knows that we don't have any money. Whatever France is offering is beneficial for us and should be taken as a key new strategic move in the region, not just a business deal.

I will refer to you to post #38...



Merci Beaucoup
 
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I will refer to you to post #38...

Post # 38 doesn't answer my post. Simply because I didn't raise any questions in my post, simply answered your concerns.

Quoting A1kaid:

I've never said France initiated an arms race, but there is no doubt that their Arms Industry makes millions when Indian and Pakistan are preparing or waging War

Everyone does. It's not just France that makes millions out of it, but every other Arms manufacturer that dominates the regional arms market.

That is the point. Maybe if they were our true strategic partner, they would help resolve Kashmir dispute as they do hold considerable influence with India at the military level.

America probably has more influence on India right now than any one else. Specially after the nuclear deal India received, American's could've easily influenced the Kashmir issue. Specifically because in the long term, Americans need the Indians more than the Indians need them. If they weren't able to influence the Indians regarding the stance on Kashmir, what exactly could've France done? Nothing.

Maybe they could help prevent further Pakistan-India conflicts like China does...Look at it from this side

Further Pakistan-India conflicts? When was the last time China prevented a conflict between Pakistan and India? China is slowly becoming our number 1 arms supplier. Decades old and new projects in the military sector, providing us with latest military muscle, all that to negotiate with India in the long run? Unfortunately, no. China wouldn't prevent a War between Pakistan and India. If peace prevails between Pakistan and India, Two global powers (China and Russia) would be out of a VERY specific job.
 
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Post # 38 doesn't answer my post. Simply because I didn't raise any questions in my post, simply answered your concerns. What post #38 does is clarifies my position on what I think about Pakistan-French partnership, because you seem to think I am against the partnership which I am not and then go on about partnerships around the World and how "no ones nobody's friend". Also post #38 was in response to Neo's post not yours, I was replying to the thing's he said.


Everyone does. It's not just France that makes millions out of it, but every other Arms manufacturer that dominates the regional arms market.



America probably has more influence on India right now than any one else. Specially after the nuclear deal India received, American's could've easily influenced the Kashmir issue. Specifically because in the long term, Americans need the Indians more than the Indians need them. If they weren't able to influence the Indians regarding the stance on Kashmir, what exactly could've France done? Nothing.

America never really pressured not encouraged India to resolve the Kashmir dispute, US has been lackadaisical about the Kashmir dispute. Also the US said it would remain out of the conflict dispute between Pakistan-India over Kashmir, at whose request, India's...So your comparison with US is invalid, US never tried to resolve anything...What can France do? Well let's see not to long ago France held the EU-Presidency they had the entire clout of EU leadership and they never even attempted, even attempted to help Pakistan with the Kashmir dispute. Truth hurts...

Further Pakistan-India conflicts? When was the last time China prevented a conflict between Pakistan and India? Well China has issued many warnings to India in the past when India thought about war, in the most recent case Mumbai attacks Indian's were thinking "surgical strikes" "hot pursuits" but many don't know China did diplomatically tell India it should not destabilize South Asia. They also work politically to bring Pakistan and India to the negotiation table, so there's your answer.
China is slowly becoming our number 1 arms supplier. Decades of projects in the military sector, providing us with latest military muscle, all that to negotiate with India in the long run? Unfortunately, no. China wouldn't prevent a War between Pakistan and IndiaThis has to be one of the most ignorant assessment of Geo-Politics in Asia I've heard in recent times. First of all, China would like to avoid inflaming the region, right now they are in a period of economic success and War in South Asia could halt or ruin their plans in Gwadar, pipelines, stability...etc There are other ways of looking at it as well.. If peace prevails between Pakistan and India, Two global powers (China and Russia) would be out of a VERY specific job.


Rather than you bringing up America and China, stick to the topic at hand France-Pakistan relationship.

I stated clearly I am not against the partnership but what I don't want others to perceive France's "strategic partnership" as genuine friendship or care for Pakistan.

All your doing is lecturing the nature of strategic partnerships, no thanks.:blah:
 
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"whats wrong if she wants to extend it by enhancing ties with existing partners? "

There's nothing wrong unless these "enhancing ties" are misconstrued and seen as a true genuine friendship with France and Pakistan.


Now it seems you've made a contradiction in your post.

"France is one of few countries who'll sell anything to anyone"

Then you said,

"If Sarkozy sees a role for Pakistan in strategic alliance with Paris"

Well the alliance isn't so "strategic" if in your own words "France [is a country] who'll sell anything to anyone"....

Part of a strategic relationship is having control of business dealings and cooperation in the technology sector (in this military case), but France is open to sell it's supplies to countries who can afford it. There's nothing strategic about that, it's as strategic as a customer-and-supplier relationship. When I think of strategic I think of US-UK or US-Israel, Sino-Pak, Germany-Italy, anyways...

No need to get all warm inside about this news, it's nothing new just France wanting to make money from the South Asian Arms race, while we spend our millions on weapons and they spend their millions in more helpful parts of human development...

I'm not saying we shouldn't have ties with France, in fact I think we should. But what I am emphasizing is the true nature of this limited relationship, yes we should build our military capability to a great extent no doubt about it, but remember the other things we must also pursue...

Thanks

There's no contradiction in my post, you have to see the bigger picture to understand French interests in the region.

Unlike rest of Europe, France has always had an independant arms exports policy, she'll sell to anyone including Pakistan and India. She has delivered arms and technology to countries suffering embargoes or sanctions from US. She's played a major role in building our nuclear infrastructure, showed willingness to supply upto 60 Mirage 2000's in mid nineties after US once again had put sanctions on 71 F-16's. She supplied us with modern subs with ToT and there's much more in the pipelines regarding JF-17 and FC-20.

France sees what US fails to see, i.e. a major arms market in Pakistan in near future and she wants to secure her share. China and France will most probably be Pakistan's major arms suppliers in years to come.

France is also building a military base in UAE, expanding her influence in the region. If there's a role for Pakistan in making it happen, we'll certainly take it as long as it comes with military and technological benefits. :coffee:
 
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Please stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks!
Thanks!
 
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EDITORIAL (May 21 2009): Speaking in Paris on Friday following President Asif Ali Zardari's meeting with his host, President Nicolas Sarkozy, Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi told reporters, "France has agreed to a transfer of civilian nuclear technology to Pakistan." He quoted President Sarkozy as having said, "what can be done for India can be done for Pakistan as well."

He further disclosed that negotiations on an accord will begin in another two months time, ie, in July, and a framework agreement and memorandum of understanding is likely to be signed during the French President's scheduled visit to Pakistan in September. This offer by the French was further renewed in their deliberations with the Chief of the Army Staff General Ashfaq Kayani during his recent visit to France.

This comes as a double dose of morale boosting news for Pakistan in the present trying times. It recognises this country's rightful status as an important regional player in South Asia - a status the US formally downgraded recently, hyphenating it with Afghanistan in its new ****** policy formulation. In the meantime, much to the chagrin of our people, US media and think-tank pundits have been repeatedly raising concerns about Pakistan becoming a failed state and its nuclear arsenal falling into the hands of Taliban and al Qaeda.

In fact, America's right-wing Fox News aired a disturbing story the same day Sarkozy held talks with Zardari. Quoting American intelligence sources it said, the US' Afghanistan-based Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) is working on a secondary mission of securing Pakistan's mobile arsenal of nuclear warheads if it appears that the country is about to be overwhelmed by the Taliban, al Qaeda or 'other elements'.

The French offer of a civilian nuclear deal at this point shows that the talk of Pakistani nukes falling into wrong hands is mere scare mongering and, as suspected by many in Pakistan, it may actually be a contrived campaign to deprive the country of its nuclear capability.

France's willingness to help with a civilian nuclear programme serves as a significant reassurance that Pakistan is fully capable of dealing with the challenges posed by extremist elements, and to act as a responsible nuclear state. As regards, a civilian nuclear programme, it is important for Pakistan not only because India got a deal for one from the Bush administration, but because it needs the technology to fulfil its increasing energy demand, and also for use in many different areas of science related progress and development.

Since Pakistan is already a declared nuclear state, there is no danger that the technology might be used for making bombs. India's example shows that a civilian nuclear deal is open to scrutiny via the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), which is why the Indo-US agreement ran into trouble for a while.

The Opposition parties did not like its provisions that required New Delhi to separate the proposed civilian component from the existing military one, and to lay open the new programme to IAEA inspections. Since Pakistan's weapons programme is India-centric, based on a minimal deterrence approach, such problems are unlikely to arise here. Hence, Qureshi said Pakistan wanted the world to feel secure, and would give all necessary guarantees.
 
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France, Pakistan seek nuclear cooperation deal
Tue May 26, 2009 5:18am IST

ABU DHABI (Reuters) - France and Pakistan are negotiating a partnership including nuclear cooperation and French President Nicolas Sarkozy could travel to Pakistan in the autumn to sign a deal, a source close to Sarkozy said on Monday.

The source said talks were ongoing on a wide variety of issues including nuclear security, an extremely sensitive question since a Pakistani scientist was at the centre of the world's biggest nuclear proliferation scandal in 2004.

"We're in the process of negotiating. We've given ourselves two or three more months," said the source close to Sarkozy during a short visit by the French president to Abu Dhabi, where he will open a French military base on Tuesday.

Sarkozy met Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari in Paris on May 15 and was reported by the Pakistani foreign minister as saying that France wanted Islamabad to obtain a wide-ranging deal to buy nuclear equipment like the one granted to India.

France has not confirmed that was exactly what Sarkozy had told Zardari. Paris said only that Sarkozy wanted Pakistan to improve its nuclear security and was prepared to cooperate with the Asian country in that respect.

The source close to Sarkozy said that since his meeting with Zardari, the French leader had also met the Pakistani army chief of staff. The source said Zardari had been informed of that.

The idea of striking a similar deal with Pakistan as the Indian agreement is likely to raise fears that sensitive technology could leak out once again.

The 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group, which was created after India tested its first nuclear weapon in 1974 and seeks to prevent nuclear technology from falling into the wrong hands, agreed in September to lift a ban on nuclear trade with India.

The waiver, won after years of lobbying by the United States, paved the way for a U.S.-India nuclear deal under which India can receive sensitive nuclear technology even though it has not signed up to the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT).

Pakistan, which has also not signed the NPT, has dismissed concerns about the safety of its nuclear arsenal and its proliferation history.

Scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan, revered by many Pakistanis as the father of the country's nuclear bomb, confessed to selling nuclear secrets to Iran, North Korea and Libya in 2004.

France, Pakistan seek nuclear cooperation deal | World | Reuters

Possibly a prelude to negotiations over full fledged nuclear cooperation and an NSG waiver if all sides are satisfied that interests and concerns will be addressed.
 
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