Kaveri engine will not power Tejas MK-1 nor AMCA

[Dillinger]

@he-man He reminds me of you, from the good old days. Remember that time when you argued that an air cooled AESA was superior to a liquid cooled AESA till I had to go in to the details..up to the point of referring to the actual coolant (hydrogenated poly-alpha-olefin).

"ALL"

Lol
Specify by what you mean when you say all.
We all know Ukrain makes lot of Arms.
We are talking about specific Kaveri engine tech required by India to compensate it.
Ukraine does not have it

AND I am asking you to back that up by telling me exactly what the kaveri needs. Lets see if you know jack about engines.

 

[narcon]

As for the weight and material.
Non rotating parts of Kaveri.
India has tried CMC and PMC in vain.
But to shed off 150 to 200 KG is not a childs play here.

 

[Dash]

And this fellow is trying to be a diaper on my a*s for nothing.
I am saying the same shik that Ukraine does not have what India wants WRT Kaveri.

There are 2 things, what he is making is Ukraine has the tech, what they only inherited from Russia but having a tech equivalent to modern standard, and what India precisely needs is something they don't have.

Pls dont misread his posts.

 

[jarves]

And this fellow is trying to be a diaper on my a*s for nothing.
I am saying the same shik that Ukraine does not have what India wants WRT Kaveri.

I am trying this last time.Let us suppose that the tech that Kaveri tech is at level A.Now Ukraine may or may not have that tech now.That is irrelevant now.
Now let us suppose that the tech that Ukraine had adn was willing to share in the past was at level B.But for some reasons India refused.We opted the path of devloping from scratch.That means we wasted our time from going to B from scratch and then to level A from B.If we would have agreed for JV at that time,many years that we wasted from going from scratch to level A would have been utilised for solving the problems that we are facing by now.That means our own engine would have been ready by now.That is what everyone is trying to say.

 

[narcon]

AND I am asking you to back that up by telling me exactly what the kaveri needs. Lets see if you know jack about engines.

Since you have said in one word = UKRAINE.(That India should have gone to Ukraine)
The onus remains on you to tell us = whether Ukraine has it for India/
If yes, how?

There are 2 things, what he is making is Ukraine has the tech, what they only inherited from Russia but having a tech equivalent to modern standard, and what India precisely needs is something they don't have.

Pls dont misread his posts.

The bold part in yr statement is WHAT I AM saying all along.

Ok here is the final nail in your argument:
I have got CAG report on Kaveri shortcoming:

Report No. 16 of 2010 -11 (Air Force and Navy)

Apart from the fookin weight, the Kaveri has host of other problems which you can see/peruse above.
And if you think Ukraine got it all.
Please give us some proof that Ukraine has everything above listed to improve Indian Kaveri.
Other than that, keep moving.
People have other (better) things to do...

 

[narcon]

I am trying this last time.Let us suppose that the tech that Kaveri tech is at level A.Now Ukraine may or may not have that tech now.That is irrelevant now.
Now let us suppose that the tech that Ukraine had adn was willing to share in the past was at level B.But for some reasons India refused.We opted the path of devloping from scratch.That means we wasted our time from going to B from scratch and then to level A from B.If we would have agreed for JV at that time,many years that we wasted from going from scratch to level A would have been utilised for solving the problems that we are facing by now.That means our own engine would have been ready by now.That is what everyone is trying to say.

Your post is portraying various scenarios.
But this fellow is adamant by saying India should have gone to Ukraine because it got it.

 

[jarves]

Your post is portraying various scenarios.
But this fellow is adamant by saying India should have gone to Ukraine because it got it.

Indeed.Thank god you finally got it.I finally succeded @Dillinger
NOw he is correct that we should have gone to Ukraine becasue no other country was willling to offer JV or sharing the critical tech.So to whom we should have went according to you??

 

[narcon]

Indeed.Thank god you finally got it.I finally succeded @Dillinger
NOw he is correct that we should have gone to Ukraine becasue no other country was willling to offer JV or sharing the critical tech.So to whom we should have went according to you??

Ukraine does not have it.
So whats the point baby?

Its up to him to prove, what shortcoming listed by CAG can be rectified by Ukraine.
Very simple.
No maths required.
He may not be knowledge defunct.
But he is info defunct.

China the biggest customer for Ukraine's military industry｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

As I said before, Many Ukrainian scientists/research/technicians and scholars left their country for better jobs.

Check for one thing.
The article talks about all but Jet engines from Ukraine.

 

[narcon]

Read this article and find that country like China is in the same boat as India as for as the Aero/Jet engine goes.
Its relying on Russia, at the same time trying its own;
But nowhere you see the word "Ukraine" in the whole article.
Why?
You know best.
Read it:
Insight: Unable to copy it, China tries building own jet engine| Reuters

If Ukraine was a panacea - China would have had it by now.

 

[Dillinger]

Ukraine does not have it.
So whats the point baby?

Its up to him to prove, what shortcoming listed by CAG can be rectified by Ukraine.
Very simple.
No maths required.
He may not be knowledge defunct.
But he is info defunct.

Since you insist.

An engine has two broad components. A compressor and a turbine. Now if you want to achieve a certain level of high thrust then the turbine needs to operate at a certain efficiency. The higher the turbine inlet temperature the higher the thrust one can achieve at an acceptable SFC (specific fuel consumption). But increasing the TET means that the hot section of the engine comes under untenable stress. So OEMs the world over first formulated nickle based super alloys and TBCs (directionally solidified blades and then single crystal blades come in the same context). As the TET increases beyond a certain level the thrust may increase but the mean usable life (TBO) of the engine will deteriorate to an unacceptable level. This is mitigated by utilizing TBCs (thermal barrier coatings) like Yttria stabilized zirconia. Otherwise the engine will literally eat itself up thereby severely decreasing TBO and leading to the QC/QR issues.

Even the Compressor stage design of the Kaveri needs to be modified for higher thrust ratings, evidenced by GTRE's latest RFIs. In all such things the key is not tooling or machining, which HAL has a repository of which matches world standards. The keys lies in production engineering, metallurgy and the design itself.

Ukraine had the fortune of being involved in the Soviet aerospace industry well in to the late 80s. Incidentally at the current level that is exactly the tech era we are confined to despite having attempted a far more sophisticated design with the leaky turbojet and variable thrust.

Ukraine has access and detailed know how of the production of said mitigating materials, which is exactly what it passed on to the Chinese. It never needed to build engines or do the research itself, it simply got it for free and decided to sell it to the highest bidder.

And as I have illustrated there are articles which also specifically mention engine tech being transferred, one by a Chinese newspaper itself rather than a Taiwanese one (wantchina).


You were incapable of answering my question. You have neither any idea of the material or engineering specifics involved in the matter. Instead you insisted on posting dilettantish assertions like too much weight which even a child strolling through the forum could pick up. When you don't know the technical details then you don't have much of a leg to stand on.I'd be surprised if even after my detailed response if you can answer my previous questions.

Lastly, Ukraine does not need to solve all our problems, even 2 issues mitigated out of 20 is a good score in such terms. Blindly posting CAG excerpts is not enough, I asked you for the ENGINEERING AND MATERIAL ISSUES WHICH LIE BEHIND THE PROBLEMS HIGHLIGHTED BY THE CAG, AS IN THE MATERIAL DETAILS.


@Oscar AGAIN, CARE TO MAKE ANY OBSERVATIONS. THERE IS A FINITE QUANTUM OF PATIENCE THAT I CAN MUSTER UP.

 

[narcon]

Some people just give up on common sense.
Or may the common sense is not all that common afterall/

 

[jarves]

@Dillinger Sir i suggest you give up.Thanks for such a long explanation.

 

[narcon]

Ukraine had the fortune of being involved in the Soviet aerospace industry well in to the late 80s. Incidentally at the current level that is the exactly the tech era we are confined in despite having attempted a far more sophisticated design with the leaky turbojet and variable thrust.

Ukraine has access and detailed know how of the production of said mitigating materials, which is exactly what it passed on to the Chinese. It never needed to build engines or do the research itself, it simply got it for free and decided to sell it to the highest bidder.

There is a hell lot of contradiction between what you are insisting on Chinese/Ukraine deal and the ground reality of China vis a vis jet engine production.

Read Reuters for a change:
Insight: Unable to copy it, China tries building own jet engine| Reuters

Now don't tell me its BS from Reuters...
This is the Chinese bottleneck on this issue...
Read on...

And more, the conventional wisdom says it all:
If Ukraine had it, China would have had it.
But sadly its not the case.
China is struggling on this issue as India.
Because RUSSIA/UK/France/US do not want to part away with such closely guarded tech.

After reading CAG report = Kaveri shortcomings. And reading Reuter article on Chinese difficulties to have their own but not getting it.

What anyone will have to say to you on Ukraine?
Keep on moving man.
..

 

[cirr]

It will take India at least 20 years and $50 billion to develop a usable jet engine。

 

[narcon]

Please note, I have nothing personal against you.
I kill dialogue with dialogue = Convince me or get convinced with HARD facts.
Just by saying Ukraine got, you can not get away that easy.
People want proper answers.
This is open forum.
If I say 2+2 = 5 means people will smack my a*s
Hope you realised by now your own shortcoming on this subject.

It will take India at least 20 years and $50 billion to develop a usable jet engine。

Correct!
And the fellow says Ukraine has it all, and India should have gone to only one country = Ukraine.
IMO this is stupid. Even China did not do it, because they know why.