Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[PlanetWarrior]

Well let's assume, i dont like the way Jews read it out to walls and shake their heads, so should i also use force to stop them?

May be i dont like the we hindus burn their dead, seriously it seems gory and cruel to me, should i also stop them with force?

May be i dont like the way Parsis dispose off their dead, may be i should use force to stop them feeding their dead being fed to birds?

Who are you to decide anything?!

Off topic. Are you Hindu . I note the term "we hindus". I find burial of the body to be eaten by worms and vermin and to become fertiliser in a few years to be "gory" but that is an issue which is unrelated to this thread

 

[Nazru]

Yeah right!

You impose law by infringing upon the religious rights of a community! Is that it?

Hindus consider Cow sacred, but Muslims slaughter them on Eid, so what do you think is the right way to deal with this problem? Use force and beat people out or may be we can ask (read order) Muslims to do the slaughtering thingy away from wary eyes, lookerbys and passerbys in a restricted place? Wont that be more civil and 'democratic and secular?

So you want to 'help' people by beating them out, great!

Off-topic.
But there is no stopping muslims slaughtering cows on Eid. However DarulUloom suggested us to avoid cows. Anyway most of us have never eaten cow and consider them respectable. This is nothing to do with religion but with culture.

Avoid cow slaughter on Eid, suggests Dar-ul-Uloom - Express India

 

[Xeric]

Off topic. Are you Hindu . I note the term "we hindus". I find burial of the body to be eaten by worms and vermin and to become fertiliser in a few years to be "gory" but that is an issue which is unrelated to this thread

I wanted to right way, but it turned out to be something else.

Anywaz, it is guud that you understood my point in totality.

You are right, who are we to decide upon something?

You may find the worm eating gory and i may find something else gory, well that's how the life is, but would that entail knocking off people?

And it is not at all unrelated to the thread; the issue being discussed is that as the indian police find shias beating and cutting themselves gory so they have the right to beat them out and stop them from the act by use of force. So if that be the case, i should also have the right to stop everything that I feel gory to my sensibilities? i hope you got the point, which indeed no one have understood better than you!

 

[EjazR]

Ok I found an Editorial from a Srinagar based paper because I had heard from friends that shias do take out Muharram processions so was a bit surprised by these reports. This should clarify to concerned Pakistani friends about the reality of the situation. I wonder if Pakistani-based media will publish any article taking this viewpoint though.

Time to think - Daily Kashmir Images
Once again on Saturday uptown Srinagar presented itself as a battlefield when Shia mourners clashed with the police as latter tried to thwart a Muharram procession. Scores of people including some policemen were injured in these clashes while many more were taken into preventive custody. Why this clash? To answer this question, one may perhaps need to try and disconnect

Muharram mourning with the kind of politics that has come to sully everything in Kashmir. In fact the reason for the authorities, in the first place, to disallow Muharram procession in Civil Lines areas of Srinagar also lies in the peculiar politics that has dominated every sphere of activity in Kashmir, including what is and should have been a strictly religious ritual.

Prior to 1989, Muharram processions would be taken out without any problem and the authorities would not only allow it but also facilitate it. Even today, Muharram processions are taken out everywhere barring a few areas in uptown Srinagar. The authorities have their own reasons for putting restrictions on processions in certain areas. Without attesting the administration’s view or the reasons thereof for the kind of fears it has, pragmatism demands that it should not be seen as “undue interference in religious matters” as certain political forces want the commoners to believe. Instead, one should give some benefit of trust to the administration and ensure that there are no undue problems for the overall law and order situation in the City. Confrontation for the sake of confrontation helps none. And certainly when it comes to the religious matters, we all need to understand that Islam is a religion of peace, and anything and everything that endangers peace cannot be seen under the banner of Islam.

Prominent Shia leader Maulvi Iftikhar Hussain Ansari was quite unequivocal in stating so while reacting to the Saturday’s (8th Muharram) clashes. Talking to a news agency, Ansari questioned the very logic of taking out procession when everybody knew that administration had disallowed the same and that restrictions under section 144 CrPC are in force. Ansari even regretted the kind of politics that is being played by provoking people into defiance by politicizing their religious sentiments. Muharram is the time to remember the grand sacrifices of Prophet’s (PBUH) grandchildren in Karbala (Iraq) 1360 years ago; it’s not the time for politicking, Ansari said.


Ansari’s assertions should come as an eye-opener for all those who claim to be the followers of the religion of peace – Shias and Sunnis both. Cutting across the sectarian and other divides, common people need to understand that historically some forces have selectively interpreted some religious texts to suit their own political sub-texts. There is ample evidence suggesting that common people have all along been used and abused for fighting larger political battles for which religion too has time and again been used as a political vehicle.
Battle of Karbala is about the eternal fight between the Good and the Evil. Nobody can claim to serve the cause of good by adhering to the evil machinations. Unnecessarily creating law and order problems which put the safety and security of the general public in jeopardy is evil. It can be anything but certainly not what the Prophet of Islam (PBUH) and His grandson Imam Hussain (AS) exemplified. Muharram processions and other congregations are held to remember the supreme sacrifices made by Imam Hussain (AS) for upholding the banner of good and justice. As we commemorate the occasion, it should reinvigorate our souls and prepare us for similar challenges in our own lives. Indulging in needless confrontations is certainly not the way to venerate Karbala martyrs.
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I won't be surprised if some APHC based offshoot was part of this rally instead of keeping a purely religious event.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

I wanted to right way, but it turned out to be something else.

Anywaz, it is guud that you understood my point in totality.

You are right, who are we to decide upon something?

You may find the worm eating gory and i may find something else gory, well that's how the life is, but would that entail knocking off people?

And it is not at all unrelated to the thread; the issue being discussed is that as the indian police find shias beating and cutting themselves gory so they have the right to beat them out and stop them from the act by use of force. So if that be the case, i should also have the right to stop everything that I feel gory to my sensibilities? i hope you got the point, which indeed no one have understood better than you!

Yes indeed. If you read my earlier post you will not that it ticks me off that these worshippers were attacked by the police for whatever reason the police tried to justify that attack. In fact I plan on submitting letters to the media in New Delhi questioning the actions of the police. I am in total agreement with you that the police attacking these worshippers is nothing short of an abuse of power on their part. I however disagree that it could have been religious intolerance as from my limited knowledge of Kashmiri politics , that state is run by a Muslim CM. Nonetheless, even if this attack on worshippers took place in for example Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, I would be equally incensed

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Agreed, however your comments apply for any procession or gatherings that local law enforcements ban, citing security reason. It is easier for them to ban it than play dice with law and order. Whether is it the perfect way to handle the situation? Maybe not.

More importantly, it is not evident from your post that, whether you agree to "indian police stop Kashmiri Muslims" as a 'purported suppression ofreligion freedom of muslims by the indian establishment' as most people in pdf want to believe or you consider this is a pure civil law and order situation that happens every day in every part of the country with all faiths.

As a Hindu and a citizen of India I believe in the right of all faiths to practice their religion in India. The "law and order" situation as my earlier argument suggests is for the law and order agencies to implement. Blank bannings on religious processions or ceremonies is not implementation of law and order but an abuse thereof by the enforcers as seems evident in this case. I would be equally angry if the police attacked Hindu worshippers on Diwali or Christian worshippers on Christmas. My argument is a general statement and not restricted to the Muslim community of Kashmir or India. India as a secular state needs to recognise the rights of its people to practice their religions. Islam and Hinduism etc are entrenched in India and by now the authorities should be aware of the auspicious dates of the major religions in their areas and make provisions to allow the worshippers of these religions to practice their faith without getting a beating from the police

 

[Xeric]

Yes indeed. If you read my earlier post you will not that it ticks me off that these worshippers were attacked by the police for whatever reason the police tried to justify that attack. In fact I plan on submitting letters to the media in New Delhi questioning the actions of the police. I am in total agreement with you that the police attacking these worshippers is nothing short of an abuse of power on their part. I however disagree that it could have been religious intolerance as from my limited knowledge of Kashmiri politics , that state is run by a Muslim CM. Nonetheless, even if this attack on worshippers took place in for example Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, I would be equally incensed

i appreciate your stance.

It isnt that difficult to see the truth!

 

[ambidex]

its better been beaten by police for sake of law and order or security then been bombed. This is what has happened in Karachi today. Kashmir is not an exception specially when the muslim demographics has gone into transient phase of changes from Sufis to Shia and sunni.

 

[rastor]

And you intended to be funny, right?

Sarcastic actually. No offense to the dead. I am just sick of this conflict.

And that's it? Seriously, and that's it?!

For kashmiris..? Pretty much. Most Indians don't give 2 hoots about kashmir. Its just seen as a "terrorist" place. I personally think its in Indian interest if pak gets a say in kashmiri affairs. But hey I am just another average joe.

 

[Panditji]

Firstly, take the communal element out of this - It is Muslim Police controlling a Muslim population. Most Hindus are any ways driven out by the bloody pogrom conducted by the militants. Those who were not killed, now live in refugee camps in Jammu and Delhi. Refugees in their own country, because of an unjust pogrom, abetted and actively assisted in cash and kind by Pakistan. Those esteemed commentators on their high horses about religious freedom and civil liberties above don't give a dam. Do they? This is sheer duplicity.

Secondly it is not the religious procession, but the malicious elements in the crowd that are the root cause of the trouble. The convener of the procession is a 'separatist' organization (Read for-hire, on-the-dole lackeys of Pakistan). Their aim is not any procession or religious expression of grief on remembering the Martyrdom, but to consciously create commotion and strife, and then cry hoarse about oppression by highlighting the commotion caused by the situation.

The police is damned if they take action, damned if they don't. What do you expect if the procession turns violent, starts stone pelting and going all sort of things inappropriate for a Muharram procession? Should they control such mischief, or should they not? They are the mechanism to maintain Law and Order. They are doing their job, and these armchair activists should know better than just thumbing noses at their thankless performance of their duties.

 

[kumar_V1.0]

Well let's assume, i dont like the way Jews read it out to walls and shake their heads, so should i also use force to stop them?

May be i dont like the we hindus burn their dead, seriously it seems gory and cruel to me, should i also stop them with force?

May be i dont like the way Parsis dispose off their dead, may be i should use force to stop them feeding their dead being fed to birds?

Who are you to decide anything?!

Nobody has a right to interfare in there religious right as long as it doesnt come in the way of general peace and infringes others right of freedom.

I cant play relegious songs after a cutoff time in the evening on a festival as it infringes others right to peace.

You understand that.

 

[FreekiN]

It has EVERYTHING to do with what you said. You proposed the Chenab formula as a workable solution.

On my part, since for India and all Indians, historically from the same vintage year, the whole of Pakistan itself is disputed territory, I proposed a softening of our stand in the form of the Indus formula ..... where you are allowed to keep the part west of the Indus .... that means Karachi stays with you, and by my geography, Lahore and Islamabad come to us.

LOL? Indus river goes to Pakistan and Lahore and Islamabad go to India? Then whats the point of debating if i'm Indian LOL. Thats just crazy and you know it lol.

Please let us know how you react to that solution .... to guage our response to your's.

My reaction: WTF NO. There you got my reaction.

Let us not worry about what a section of Indians want or not ..... least of all what a Pakistani feels they want or not.

Point is, what does India want ..... the WHOLE of India. That, and nothing less, is what is the only factor of prime importance to us. EVERYTHING else comes a distant second.

Yeah, ok you want the whole of India? Deal with the separatist movements India keeps getting defeated by. Then we'll talk about feelings.

India takes the sentiments of newly "democratic" pakistan under advisement. India takes its democratic secular nature very seriously. We do not see Kashmir as a majority state of any particular religion ..... we see kashmir as we see any other Indian state ..... populated by Indians. And we have popularly elected people's representatives running things satisfactorily in kashmir per the Kashmiri people's choice, under the umbrella of the Indian Democratic Republic, per the Indian citizen's choice

And taking everything in a democratic secular nature is what's causing the problem. Ok. You don't see it as a Majority Muslim state right? Then look at it as a state that will say 'Oh Hells NO' to joining India. Look at it as a bunch of Indians that don't want to be Indians and are going to do whatever they can for eternity to break free. But you people can't do that. You and when you realise a bunch of Indians [not particularly Kashmiri's] don't want to be Indian.

They live under their elected government because they must. But we all know things will change.

Now that we have dealt with what actually "made the problem", what do you propose we (Indians and Pakistanis) do about it?

Why bother with 1909, when we have something from a little further back (265 BCE), since we are trying to establish historical perspectives and precedence here ....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Maurya_Dynasty_in_265_BCE.jpg

Cheers, Doc

Calling Pakistan's invasion of Kashmir 'illegal' won't change much. In your eyes its illegal. In our eyes, its legal. And in the Kashmiri's eyes it's freedom. We still have not exactly discussed about the problem yet. As you haven't brought up the issue about Ranjit Singh.

I think you should take a look at what I posted 1 more time. It was British India in 1909, and religious provinces were highlighted. And it's totally relevant to the discussion because, after all, we were given Independence from British India and not the Maurya Dynasty.

___

Calling for backup, Pakistani's!

 

[Hulk]

Everyone jumps on criticizing the police whenever such things happens, no one criticize people who politicize religion. The whole idea of looking every incidence with the lens of religion is politicizing the religion, and those who play politics in the name of religion are politicians and not religious leaders.

 

[ahmed_naj]

Point is, what does India want ..... the WHOLE of India. That, and nothing less, is what is the only factor of prime importance to us. EVERYTHING else comes a distant second.

India takes its democratic secular nature very seriously. We do not see Kashmir as a majority state of any particular religion ..... we see kashmir as we see any other Indian state ..... populated by Indians

Oops, seems like you've gotta problem here majority of Kashmiris' dont consider themselves indians:

and you guys still bury your heads in the sand and even refuse to call Kashmir disputed territory

How about letting Kashmiris decide their future?

 

[Hulk]

Oops, seems like you've gotta problem here majority of Kashmiris' dont consider themselves indians:

and you guys still bury your heads in the sand and even refuse to call Kashmir disputed territory

How about letting Kashmiris decide their future?

Dude I cannot see the video as it is blocked here, I guess it might be one which has a big gathering of anti Indian supporters.

I must admit that there are big numbers of anti Indian's in Kashmir but there is no way to prove they are in majority.

The only way we can test the real numbers (approximately) when these separatist contest the elections and prove how much following they have, so far only few have tried and lost.

So while it is incorrect to say that India's feel that majority of Kashmiri's are with them Pakistani's also cannot claim they want to be with Pakistan.