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So, is new media only reinforcing old stereotypes?


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i m in favour of integrity of india at all cost.

It would be clever for the Indian planners to start thinking of a free Kashmir and how they will deal with such a nation, as they too have lost Pakistan not that many decades back (many mothers and fathers was born an Indian and died a Pakistani!). Had the Indian Politicans thought and planned for a free Pakistan they would not have had so many problems as they face today!
 
yes the one you scared of.. :)
sheesh am so famous..
kashmir banay ga pakistan. dekhtay rehna tum hindustan :D
next track is from rahat fetah ali khan.. oh he's from pakistan tooo :D
awwwwwwwwwww too bad indians dun have any singers :(

Any singers??...thats a complete wrong statement mate...Bollywood & Kollywood (south Indian movie industry?) are full of singers...specially these days there are more singers than beggars...every third fellow wants to be a filmstar or a singer :D
 
I am kashmiri and i know fully well that the culprit is india.

Do you really think that India will let go Kashmir? In my view, never. Kashmir can get autonomy but never Independence.

All security forces cannot be withdrawn as there is pakisan's attack there with the support of local seperatists. Once Indian army looses its positions, it would be tough to get it back.
 
I too support the Kashmiri's demand on this one..

Why should an international that too a largely impotent organisation be allowed to come inbetween the internal affairs of India.

Withdraw the helmets ASAP.


:bounce::bounce::bounce:Oh...from where u got the idea this is india's internal affair.....
According to UN resolution in 1948 Kashmir is disputed area and Kashmiris will decide that wheather they want to Live Pakistan or Free. :pakistan::pakistan::pakistan:
 
Theres no debating and point scoring with the hardcore hypocrite indians , as the ground reality speaks for itself quite loud and clear.
I have my hopes for the Kashmiri Freedom struggle, the naxals may help the Kashmiri freedom cause by diverging the Focus, Certinly out of nowhere India is now facing grave challenges, i hope the GOI finally prepares itself to take a decision on Kashmir. Despite all the resources india Put down in Kashmir it hasnt been able to cater any noteable feat which might be categorized as success.Theres no way out except to resolve Kashmir as the Kashmiris demand. The sooner the GOI realizes it the better it will be..!!!!
 
Deadly Clashes Continue in Kashmir

By LYDIA POLGREEN

NEW DELHI — Kashmiris demanding independence from India flooded the streets in protests across the troubled region Friday, clashing repeatedly with the police and Indian security forces, the authorities said.

Four people were killed, bringing the number of dead to at least 55 since the unrest began in June.

Kashmiris have been marching in increasing numbers, and in increasingly bold defiance of strictly enforced curfews, in an effort to force India to withdraw its troops from the disputed region, which is claimed by India and Pakistan. It was the first Friday of the Ramadan fasting month, and many people in the mostly Muslim region tried to visit mosques to offer prayers.

The clashes dampened hopes that Ramadan, during which Muslims neither drink nor eat from sunrise to sunset, would cool the simmering anger here. The protests, which began when a teenager was killed by a tear gas shell in June, have spiraled into a broad, unarmed popular revolt that Indian authorities have struggled to control.

Poorly trained and equipped security forces use live ammunition to fend off angry, stone-throwing crowds. The resulting deaths have only fed the protests, and the state government has called in more troops to try to wrest control of the streets.

On Friday police officers fired on a crowd of protesters in the town of Pattan, and a 58-year-old man died of injuries sustained there. In the separatist stronghold of Sopore a large crowd gathered after Friday Prayers and threw stones at a camp occupied by Indian paramilitaries, who opened fire, killing two people, the police said. In Kupwara, a local official ordered the police to open fire on a crowd of 2,000 people who had gathered in defiance of curfew, police officials said. A 23-year-old man died of a gunshot wound there.

In Srinagar, the regional capital, officials did not impose curfew, and Friday Prayers were held at the historic, pagoda-shaped mosque for the first time in six weeks. Officials had feared violence if they tried to prevent worshipers from visiting the mosque.

Violent protests have broken out in Kashmir for the last three summers but this year they have taken on a new intensity as the protesters have become less willing to obey the curfew and more willing to confront the security forces.

Indian paramilitary forces have remained in the region since they were deployed to fight a brutal, Pakistan-backed insurgency that swept across the Kashmir Valley in the 1990s. They operate under special laws that shield them from prosecution, and many Kashmiris say that this has led to many human rights violations in the region.

Hari Kumar contributed reporting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/world/asia/14kashmir.html?_r=1&ref=world
 
Actually it is the reverse.

We have expelled the invader, be it British or the more barbaric one before them (that invader had been completely defeated in the 17th and 18th century before the British invader came).

No question of giving something to those who think they are inheritors of the invaders.

In fact, the supposed inheritors of invaders don't have time on their side now. They will likely lose everything if they can't reconcile to what they have. It was all a bonus and they should treasure that. ;)
There is no 'we' there. The people repelling attacking forces were individual Kings and emperors, not Indians, and it was their fiefdoms carved out through war and conquest themselves that were on the line. Maurya was no less an invader than Ghauri. Being Bengali does not given him any rights over the rest of ethnic groups, nor does it make him 'part of them', any more than the Afghan's, Central Asians and Arabs had any sort of rights over the non-Afghan's and non-Arabs etc. The same is true of any non-Punjabis, non-Pakhtuns and non-Sindhis who occupied Punjab, Sindh and the Pakhtuns (and you can extend that to any ethnic group in South Asia) - whether those conquering them came from East or West.

So too is India the invader in Kashmir, as it would be the invader if it were to occupy any part of Pakistan - mythological ideas of some great 'Akhand Bharat' do not make them fact. The fact is that the subcontinent is comprised of diverse ethnic groups, races, cultures and peoples, and the existence of the modern States of India and Pakistan is solely because certain ethnic groups and peoples chose to enter into a compact to form larger nations. The Kashmiris have not given India any agreement towards that compact of nationhood, since the mechanism promised them to arrive at that compact, plebiscite, has been denied them. So long as that compact is unfulfilled, India is the invader and occupier.
 
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British = apples,Indian = Oranges.

British came in ships in the hundreds to a land they had no connection whatsoever and left only after a steel begging bowl was given in ther hands after WWII.

On the contrary we r in a land that has centuries old deep ethnic,historic and religious significance/connection to us.

And a begging bowl is not coming into our hands any time soon.

That is a fallacious argument, and here is why - Just because you claim a 'connection' to Pakistan or Afghanistan would not justify an Indian invasion and occupation of the lands of Pakistan and Afghanistan, if against the wishes of the people of those lands. And just as India cannot claim 'connections' as justification for invading Afghanistan and Pakistan, it cannot claim 'connections' to justify the invasion and occupation of Kashmir. The people of Kashmir were promised a plebiscite to finalize (or not) a compact of nationhood with the rest of the Indian State - that promise was violated and the territory remains forcibly invaded and occupied, and the people of Kashmir are angry about that occupation and disgusted with India.

At its core therefore the comparison to the British invasion and occupation of the subcontinent is apt - since in both cases a people were occupied against their will. In the case of the British the justification was the 'glory of the British Empire' in the case of the Indians it is just an immoral a justification of 'a billion Indians refuse to allow millions their freedom'.
 
AM, your whole premise of a plebiscite is wrong. It was Pakistan who initiated this mess by invading the then independent state of Kashmir on flimsy pretext. No point in trying to beat around the bush by bringing in numerous UN resolutions and plebiscite. You initiated the mess. Period.

Your second point questioning India's existence as an entity before 1947 is downright fallacious and if thats what you want to believe to sleep properly, be my guest.

Btw, check out this thread...might help you rectify your delusion:

Life in Indian cities in Colonial Era/20th century-in Pics

And this post:

Check out the dates/year and the word India!
Seriously, what kind of history do you guys follow over there in Pakistan? You all definitely do live in this very universe, dont you?

I should point you to this particular thread:
Life in Indian cities in Colonial Era/20th century-in Pics

Check out the pictures and other data which suggests otherwise to the delusion that you all so desperately hold on to.

Check these out:

India%20Y-1ds.jpg


Khudadad_khan_vc1915.jpg


British_Indian_Empire_1909_Imperial_Gazetteer_of_India.jpg


14312529_1.jpg


n28.jpg


Your state, per se, did not exist before 1947, the concept of Pakistan wasnt there till the late 1930's. There are many areas even today, which Pakistan claims as its sovereign territories and yet the govt of the day (both civilian and military) cannot exercise its writ in many such areas. You desperately seek an identity and yet think that your delusions would help erase one of the humanity's richest civilizations/identities? How pathetic!

All those who argue that India did not exist prior to 1947 are plain delusional! Lol. Go try to find and establish your own identity, reason d'etre for existence and then comment on others'.
 
AM, your whole premise of a plebiscite is wrong. It was Pakistan who initiated this mess by invading the then independent state of Kashmir on flimsy pretext. No point in trying to beat around the bush by bringing in numerous UN resolutions and plebiscite. You initiated the mess. Period.
Nonsense - India invaded and annexed the State of Junagadh months after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan, and demanded Pakistan reject the accession the entire time. So India has no standing on the basis of 'accession'. And the UN resolutions calling for plebiscite and the Indian promise of promise of plebiscite came after the Kashmiri revolt against the Mahrajah and the subsequent Pakistani intervention, so that intervention cannot be claimed as reason to justify a violation of a commitment to plebiscite domestically and on an international forum.
Your second point questioning India's existence as an entity before 1947 is downright fallacious and if thats what you want to believe to sleep properly, be my guest.

Btw, check out this thread...might help you rectify your delusion:


Check out the dates/year and the word India!
Before 1947 it existed as a British Colony, unified by the British from a motley of Kingdoms, Princely States fiefdoms. It was never a unified independent nation-State, and that is fact.
 
Finally NYT notices Kashmir. Indian delusions and the delusions it had successfully sold to the world are now quickly unraveling. Kashmiris want Azadi, nothing can stop them now.

Just because NYT has published a report! ;)

Have they never published a report on Kashmir?

How many reports have they published of the impending collapse of Pakistan and nukes falling to Taliban? Has it happened yet.

"Doobte ko tinake ka sahara". People will clutch at any straw and we understand.

Just don't get too disappointed again.
 
Nonsense - India invaded and annexed the State of Junagadh months after the ruler had acceded to Pakistan, and demanded Pakistan reject the accession the entire time. So India has no standing on the basis of 'accession'. And the UN resolutions calling for plebiscite and the Indian promise of promise of plebiscite came after the Kashmiri revolt against the Mahrajah and the subsequent Pakistani intervention, so that intervention cannot be claimed as reason to justify a violation of a commitment to plebiscite domestically and on an international forum.

Who was the nawab of Junagarh? Was he a native or foreigner despot whose ancestors invaded at some point?

Why should India allow that despot (as also the Hyderbad Nizam) to continue ruling Indians long after they had no power to do that?

They came by force and they had to be kicked out by force. Nothing wrong in it. If only they were treated much better than what they (and their ancestors) had done here.

Before 1947 it existed as a British Colony, unified by the British from a motley of Kingdoms, Princely States fiefdoms. It was never a unified independent nation-State, and that is fact.

India had been unified at several times under great Indian kings and there was the great naqba (I hope you know this word, else ask the Palestinians what they call their 1948 events) when despotic, genocidal, goons and maniacs were let loose. Those invaders plundered, killed, raped and enslaved for a few hundred years (out of the 10,000 years old history of this land).

Obviously some weaklings sold themselves to these goons for fear or favor and continue to be their apologists. The rest of us don't miss the wood for the trees. Or to be more specific, those 500 odd years can't negate the 10,000 year common civilization.
 
Why silence over Kashmir speaks volumes

Bloody protests against military rule get little coverage, while India maintains its reputation

Pankaj Mishra
The Guardian, Saturday 14 August 2010


Once known for its extraordinary beauty, the valley of Kashmir now hosts the biggest, bloodiest and also the most obscure military occupation in the world. With more than 80,000 people dead in an anti-India insurgency backed by Pakistan, the killings fields of Kashmir dwarf those of Palestine and Tibet. In addition to the everyday regime of arbitrary arrests, curfews, raids, and checkpoints enforced by nearly 700,000 Indian soldiers, the valley's 4 million Muslims are exposed to extra-judicial execution, rape and torture, with such barbaric variations as live electric wires inserted into penises.

Why then does the immense human suffering of Kashmir occupy such an imperceptible place in our moral imagination? After all, the Kashmiris demanding release from the degradations of military rule couldn't be louder and clearer. India has contained the insurgency provoked in 1989 by its rigged elections and massacres of protestors. The hundreds of thousands of demonstrators that fill the streets of Kashmir's cities today are overwhelmingly young, many in their teens, and armed with nothing more lethal than stones. Yet the Indian state seems determined to strangle their voices as it did of the old one. Already this summer, soldiers have shot dead more than 50 protestors, most of them teenagers.

The New York Times this week described the protests as a comprehensive"intifada-like popular revolt". They indeed have a broader mass base than the Green Movement does in Iran. But no colour-coded revolution is heralded in Kashmir by western commentators. The BBC and CNN don't endlessly loop clips of little children being shot in the head by Indian soldiers. Bloggers and tweeters in the west fail to keep a virtual vigil by the side of the dead and the wounded. No sooner than his office issued it last week, the UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, hastened to retract a feeble statement expressing concern over the situation in Kashmir.

Kashmiri Muslims are understandably bitter. As Parvaiz Bukhari, a journalist, said early this week the stones flung randomly by protestors have become "the voice of a neglected people" convinced that the world deliberately ignores their plight. The veteran Kashmiri journalist Masood Hussain confessed to the near-total futility of his painstaking auditing of atrocity over two decades. For Kashmir has turned out to be a "great suppression story".

The cautiousness – or timidity – of western politicians is easy to understand. Apart from appearing as a lifeline to flailing western economies, India is a counterweight, at least in the fantasies of western strategists, to China. A month before his election, Barack Obama declared that resolving the "Kashmir crisis" was among his "critical tasks". Since then, the US president hasn't uttered a word about this ur-crisis that has seeded all major conflicts in south Asia. David Cameron was advised a similar strategic public silence on his visit to India last fortnight.

Those western pundits who are always ready to assault illiberal regimes worldwide on behalf of democracy ought not to be so tongue-tied. Here is a well-educated Muslim population, heterodox and pluralist by tradition and temperament, and desperate for genuine democracy. However, intellectuals preoccupied by transcendent, nearly mystical, battles between civilization and barbarism tend to assume that "democratic" India, a natural ally of the "liberal" west, must be doing the right thing in Kashmir, ie fighting "Islamofascism". Thus Christopher Hitchens could call upon the Bush administration to establish a military alliance with "the other great multi-ethnic democracy under attack from Muslim fascism" even as an elected Hindu nationalist government stood accused of organising a pogrom that killed more than 2,000 Muslims in the Indian state of Gujarat.

Electoral democracy in multi-ethnic, multi-religious India is one of the modern era's most utopian political experiments, increasingly vulnerable to malfunction and failure, and, consequently, to militant disaffection and state terror. But then the west's new masters of humanitarian war, busy painting grand ideological struggles on broad, rolling canvases, are prone to miss the human position of suffering and injustice.

Indian writers and intellectuals, who witnessed the corrosion of India's secular democracy by Hindu supremacists, seem better acquainted with the messy realities concealed by stirring abstractions. But on Kashmir they often appear as evasive as their Chinese peers are on Tibet. They may have justifiably recoiled from the fundamentalist and brutish aspect of the revolt in the valley. But the massive non-violent protests in Kashmir since 2008 haven't released a flood of pent-up sympathy from them.

Few people are as well positioned as the much-revered Amartya Sen to provoke national introspection on Kashmir. Indeed, no one can fault Sen's commitment to justice for the poor and defenceless in India. Yet Sen relegates Kashmir to footnotes in both of his recent books: The Argumentative Indian and Identity and Violence.

Certainly, as Arundhati Roy's recent writings prove, anyone initiating a frank discussion on Kashmir risks a storm of vituperation from the Indian understudies of Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. The choleric TV anchors, partisan journalists and opinion-mongers of India's corporate media routinely amplify the falsehoods and deceptions of Indian intelligence agencies in Kashmir. Blaming Pakistan or Islamic fundamentalists, as the Economist pointed out last week, has "got much harder" for the Indian government, which, has "long denied the great extent to which Kashmiris want rid of India". Nevertheless, it tries; and, as the political philosopher Pratap Bhanu Mehta, one of the few fair-minded commentators on this subject, points out, the Indian media now acts in concert with the government "to deny any legitimacy to protests in Kashmir".

This effective censorship reassures those Indians anxious not to let mutinous Kashmiris sully the currently garish notions of India as an "economic powerhouse" and "vibrant democracy" – the calling cards with which Indian elites apply for membership to the exclusive clubs of the west. In Kashmir, however, the net effect is deeper anger and alienation. As Bukhari puts it, Kashmiris hold India's journalists as responsible as its politicians for "muzzling and misinterpreting" them.

"The promise," Mehta writes, "of a liberal India is slowly dying". For Kashmiris this promise has proved as hollow as that of the fundamentalist Islam exported by Pakistan. Liberated from political deceptions, the young men on the streets of Kashmir today seem simply to want to express their hatred of the state's impersonal brutality, and to commemorate lives freshly ruined by it. As the Kashmiri writer Basharat Peer wrote this week in a moving Letter to an Unknown Indian, Indian journalists might edit out the "faces of the murdered boys", and "their grieving fathers"; they may not show "the video of a woman in Anantnag, washing the blood of the boys who were killed outside her house". But "Kashmir sees the unedited Kashmir."

And it remembers. "Like many other Kashmiris," Peer writes, "I have been in silence, committing to memory the deed, the date." Apart from the youth on the streets, there are also those with their noses in books, or pressed against window bars. Soon this generation will make its way into the world with its private traumas. Life under political oppression has begun to yield, in the slow bitter way it does, a rich intellectual and artistic harvest: Peer's memoir Curfewed Night will be followed early next year by a novel by Waheed Mirza. There are more works to come; Kashmiris will increasingly speak for themselves. One can only hope that their voices will finally penetrate our indifference and even occasionally prick our conscience.

Why silence over Kashmir speaks volumes | From the Guardian | The Guardian
 
There is no 'we' there. The people repelling attacking forces were individual Kings and emperors, not Indians, and it was their fiefdoms carved out through war and conquest themselves that were on the line. Maurya was no less an invader than Ghauri. Being Bengali does not given him any rights over the rest of ethnic groups, nor does it make him 'part of them', any more than the Afghan's, Central Asians and Arabs had any sort of rights over the non-Afghan's and non-Arabs etc. The same is true of any non-Punjabis, non-Pakhtuns and non-Sindhis who occupied Punjab, Sindh and the Pakhtuns (and you can extend that to any ethnic group in South Asia) - whether those conquering them came from East or West.

Read the book "The story of civilization" and more specifically "Our Oriental heritage". Read about the Muslim invasion of India and what it entailed. It was all chronicled by the historians who accompanied the invaders.

That will tell you the difference if you have the eyes to see it.

So too is India the invader in Kashmir, as it would be the invader if it were to occupy any part of Pakistan - mythological ideas of some great 'Akhand Bharat' do not make them fact. The fact is that the subcontinent is comprised of diverse ethnic groups, races, cultures and peoples, and the existence of the modern States of India and Pakistan is solely because certain ethnic groups and peoples chose to enter into a compact to form larger nations. The Kashmiris have not given India any agreement towards that compact of nationhood, since the mechanism promised them to arrive at that compact, plebiscite, has been denied them. So long as that compact is unfulfilled, India is the invader and occupier

Ever thought why it is only the convert like you who deny this history, even though you guys have started claiming IVC for the last few years (while trying to deny the obvious links it has to the Indian civilization even now).

I would suggest you read V.S. Naipaul's excellent book "Among the believers". I read it some time back and it describes this phenomenon very well. I have to admire the perceptive power and observation of the genius.
 

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