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So, is new media only reinforcing old stereotypes?


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Walekum Aslam Bhaijaan(i hope i got it right :)

nice :tup:

This itself shows how much well versed you are with Kashmir politics...Anyways not your fault...Hawks from both sides never let negative sentiments reach their side if they are responsible for it....

While I have my views and opinions; while I have my biases I try to be as fair and reasonable as possible.

thats why I say that let Kashmiris in Azad and Occupied Kashmir hold a referendum to determine their aspirations. Most democratic thing to do in an internationally recognized DISPUTED territory.

However if you are an intellect and understand geo-politics and how things work then i am sure you can find out that plebiscite is nothing but wishful thinking...

If you are hawkish and dogmatically clinging to a notion that (in reality) is unproven and devoid of logic ---then you will assert that Kashmir in its entirety is an integral part of hindustan.

very difficult to subscribe to such, given the current uprising and state of unrest


I would like to bring your attention to the event when we were close to solving Kashmir i.e. 2003-2007, there was no mention of plebiscite in that formulae either....So your choice whether you want to close you eyes and keep thinking about plebisicte or get a reality check and focus on what is possible....

so, was the issue resolved or was it just ''close'' ;)

there you go.


Sorry but your one sided and utterly biased option has been outright rejected many times....The solution is quit sponsoring terrorism and come to dialogue table with open mind.....

nothing unfair about plebisite...i think your country is scared of the eventual result, knowing what the outcome would be


So you missed the whole bloody point, don't you??? Was plebiscite held to ask where they wanted to live(same is true for Muslims on this side)....

the Kashmir issue has a religious dimension to it; but overall it is a territorial issue, not a religious one. I think that rather than pointing guns at eachother and saying ''this is mine'' and ''that is not yours'' --- give the power and choice to the people on the ground there

quite simple, really...


The truth is many people on both sides did not want to leave but had to fled or else risk their lives....No refrendum was help to find out what people want and their representative's(politicians) took decision on their behalfs...Similarly decision was taken for Kashmir by the caretaker..

Many Kashmiris say ''we don't want peace until we have a solution''

that is how things will play out....


So better we all get a reality check and see what else can be a viable solution...Otherwise we can keep fighting for eternity and the people for whom we are fighting will keep suffering....

I'm glad you mentioned ''the people''

some of your more emotional countrymen say ''screw the people, we just want the land''



Almost 2-3 months of unrest, 80 odd people dead and yet not a single international statement on this issue tells that Kashmir is an internal issue.....

no, it just means that the issue doesnt get the coverage that it should be getting....occupied Kashmir is not a very welcome place for international media persons; the only way to get information is from local newspapers


No doubt about it...Whatever i heard from my grandpa you are absolutely correct....

you act as if you aren't welcome in Lahore or Pakistan. Like i said, every year the Sikh Khatris come and they are received warmly --even as indians.

Pakistanis are world famous for hospitality.


Don't want to derail further about affairs of P-O-K but we have to deal with some meddling from your side as well...Anyways if you are talking about official stand of Pakistan then let me share with you official stand of India - "J&K is integral part of India"....

quite frankly, how far is this ''stand'' getting you??? Look at the news.


In other words if i want to be rigid, the message is the state is integral part of India, period....Now will there be anything left to talk???? So better come out of your official stand of Pakistan syndrome and talk, otherwise i am afraid there is not much to talk, no????


?All-party meet futile exercise to hoodwink int?l community? | Kashmir Media Service

In occupied Kashmir, the All Parties Hurriyet Conference Chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and veteran Kashmiri Hurriyet leader, Syed Ali Gilani have termed the All-Party Meet on Kashmir, held in New Delhi with Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh in chair, as a futile and time-buying exercise aimed at hoodwinking the international community and Kashmiris.

Mirwaiz Umar Farooq in a statement issued in Srinagar said that the meeting had no clarity of purpose. He maintained that Kashmiris were clear in their demand for right to self-determination.

He said that the visit of an All-Party delegation to the occupied territory would not serve any purpose. “I don’t understand for what purpose the All-Party delegation will visit the Valley after 90 killings. Everybody is abreast of the situation in Kashmir and India must accept the reality that Kashmiris are rendering their lives for right to self-determination and not for economic packages,” he added.

The Mirwaiz said, the need of the hour is to stop killings in the territory, repeal black laws like AFSPA, withdraw troops from civilian areas and release all the illegally detained Kashmiri Hurriyet leaders and youth. “Ironically India is talking through the barrel of gun. In past two days, over 20 unarmed protesters have been brutally killed. Talks, peace efforts and killings can’t go together. If India is serious it has to translate its concern into actions,” the APHC Chairman maintained.

On the other hand, Syed Ali Gilani in a statement issued in Srinagar described the holding of All-Party Meet a futile and time-buying exercise aimed at denying the Kashmiris their inalienable right to self-determination. He said that following the killing of 90 people in the Valley, Kashmiri people had hoped that New Delhi would shun its rigid stance on Kashmir but the outcome of the meeting was disappointing and negative for them.

The veteran leader pointed out that since 1947, India had been resorting to dilly-dallying tactics to deny the Kashmiris their rights. “India even failed to fulfill the promise of its first Prime Minister, Jawaharlal Nehru to let Kashmiris decide their future. It took the dispute to the United Nations and has been delaying implementation of its resolutions which empower Kashmiris to choose their destiny,” he said. He added that it was high time for India to resolve the Kashmir dispute. »
 
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Protests in Azad Kashmir Against Indian Violence​
MUZAFFARABAD Pakistanis set fire to an effigy of the Indian prime minister Thursday, marching to protest against India over three months of violence in the divided Himalayan region of Kashmir.

Protestors marched through Muzaffarabad, before setting on fire the Indian flag and an effigy of Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

The crowd shouted "Go India, go back," carrying placards scrawled with slogans such as "Indian dogs, go back".

"India is forcing us to cross the Line of Control and we will, if it does not stop atrocities in Indian-occupied Kashmir," said Syed Salahuddin, a leader of Hizb-ul-Mujahedin.

Ninety-four anti-India protesters have been shot dead in three months of violence in the Indian-administered part of Kashmir.


Protests in Azad Kashmir against Indian violence - GEO.tv
 
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After coming across several claims of Pakistani suport to Independent Kashmir, and the moral high ground frequently claimed by some members (Including Admins like Asim), I have conducted an exhaustive research and have not come across a single incident of this view being propagated or even suggested in official channels.

Infact, the pre condition for holding ANY office in so called Azad Kashmir is to swear to an Oath :
I will remain loyal to the country and the cause of accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan

This applies to positions from president, Prime minister, Minister, Speaker, MPs , MLCs etc.

Additionally, (2) No person or political party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the State’s accession to Pakistan.

Link: http://www.ajkassembly.gok.pk/AJK_Interim_Constitution_Act_1974.pdf (Official Constitution of so called Azad KAshmir)

This essentially means any pro-independence group will not be allowed to be established or survive on Pakistani specially Kashmiri land. Even a group supporting accession to India will not be allowed.

Can you explain this and give me a single incidence of Pakistan officially supporting the cause of Independent Kashmir?? Leave alone supporting, even identifying it...

I am not speaking about random press quotations which are easily denied but formally documented and concrete actions. Has this view ever been iterated at any international meet.

The support to right of "Self Determination" has a catch - it has only 2 options India and Pakistan.

If I have overlooked certain incident, be kind enough and bring it to my notice or else quit taking this moral high ground.

Thanks and regards,
 
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you act as if you aren't welcome in Lahore or Pakistan. Like i said, every year the Sikh Khatris come and they are received warmly --even as indians.

Didn't mean to get into your healthy discussion what's with specific differentiation strategy. There are also Lubanas, Jatt's, Mujbee's, Khatri's, Chamarr's.

Why Khatri's only.?

You don't have to respond to my ? but shouldn't generalize Sikh's, mate. You could just say SIKH's and that would make your point very clear.:cheers:
 
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oye! Singh saab!

first of all, it isnt wishful thinking. It's only ''wishful'' to the hindustanys who keep crying nonsense about the so-called ''pandits'' who ran away from the valley for economic reasons --next door to hindustan.


Talk about rubbing salt on someone's wounds!
 
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While I have my views and opinions; while I have my biases I try to be as fair and reasonable as possible.
I hope what you are saying is correct, however some of your comments especially related to Kashmiri Pandits were shear bias or ignorance....

thats why I say that let Kashmiris in Azad and Occupied Kashmir hold a referendum to determine their aspirations. Most democratic thing to do in an internationally recognized DISPUTED territory.
Easy to say almost impossible to implement....Refrendum had lot of conditions attached to it as said it is next to impossible...The issue here is you do not want to address the complexities involved in refrendum and just keep on repeating the word...Look out for my post above where i am talking with Agno, you will find out what i mean by complexity....


If you are hawkish and dogmatically clinging to a notion that (in reality) is unproven and devoid of logic ---then you will assert that Kashmir in its entirety is an integral part of hindustan.
well if you look around then same applies to your notion...My stand is unification of Kashmir is not possible, so is demand of plebiscite....This si being realistic, are you????


very difficult to subscribe to such, given the current uprising and state of unrest
No it is not if you start looking at J&K and not just at valley...and if you understand that even in valley people are divided over what should be the definition of so called azaadi then honestly it is not that difficult to look, however do you want to look at like that???

so, was the issue resolved or was it just ''close'' ;)there you go.
what do you mean??? Issue has not been resolved from past 60 years, so what's the point??? If you want to be fair then give the comment its proper respect, why trying to act smart??? As said the closest we have been in solving this issue was during 2003-2007 period where plebiscite was not mentioned. In other words people understood the ground reality and try to come up with out of box solution(which is the only way to go), however unfortunately political turmoil in Pak started and thereafter mumbai happened which bring us back to status quo, having said it i will not be surprised that whenever dialogue proess will start the same forumule will be looked at...In short open your eyes and admit the ground reality....



nothing unfair about plebisite...i think your country is scared of the eventual result, knowing what the outcome would be
Here you are not being fair...If you really want to be then understand the complexity regarding plebiscite....Let me put it this way....In your eyes what steps you think Pakistan should take for GOI to go for plebiscite so that it becomes a fair deal??? Now as you said you try to be fair let me get your view point and then i will share mine, deal???



the Kashmir issue has a religious dimension to it; but overall it is a territorial issue, not a religious one. I think that rather than pointing guns at eachother and saying ''this is mine'' and ''that is not yours'' --- give the power and choice to the people on the ground there

quite simple, really...
Two things wrong up there...
a) This is not simple and once you answer my question above i will tell you why??
b) If you honestly think that it is territorial issue then why are you not considering people in Jammu and Ladakh and just follow the sentiments of people in valley??? Have you already decided that valley should be a separate state in itself???


Many Kashmiris say ''we don't want peace until we have a solution''that is how things will play out....
Being an intellect tell me how is it possible to have a solution without peace??? What other choice do you have???


I'm glad you mentioned ''the people''some of your more emotional countrymen say ''screw the people, we just want the land''
Well i cannot account for everybody here but general comment is those who don't want to stay with India can leave, Kashmir is going to stay with us... I being a little more humble will say, lets be realistic....and party here is GOI, Separatist and their followers, GOP.....rest of the people(of J&K) just want a peaceful and prosperous life which have been denied to them because of actions by above three parties mentioned....


no, it just means that the issue doesnt get the coverage that it should be getting....occupied Kashmir is not a very welcome place for international media persons; the only way to get information is from local newspapers
This is like living blindfolded....The only way to get information is from local newspapers??? my foot....By the way even Indian media is airing views of people having anti-india feelings openly....Abu either you are pretending to be fair or need to be more informed before you type such baseless allegations...Lets be hinest here, Pakistan has been trying to internationalize the issue, however not succesful...Yes it is an international recognized dispute but that's about it...It is, was and remain a bilateral issue till it get resolved for good...With india's growing influence the international support(whatever it is) for the cause of Kashmir will keep on diminishing...and this is why it is utmost important for Separatist to admit the reality and relook at their demands....

you act as if you aren't welcome in Lahore or Pakistan. Like i said, every year the Sikh Khatris come and they are received warmly --even as indians.
I never said that i am not welcome..All i was telling you what my Grandpa used to tell me....In fact i know that on internet we spew venom but when we meet in person and especially overseas we just go along very well....I still remember how people in Mohali(place close to Chandigarh) volunteered to host Pakistani guest coming to watch Cricket Match b/w India and Pakistan during 2003-2004(i hope i am correct with the year)....


Pakistanis are world famous for hospitality.
So are indians and in general Asians....We are enemy's but still same people...



quite frankly, how far is this ''stand'' getting you??? Look at the news.
?All-party meet futile exercise to hoodwink int?l community? | Kashmir Media Service
Nowhere,Though i do not expect such a complex issue with so many vested interests to be resolved in an all party meet(it need lot of time and out of box thinking) but may i humbly ask where is your stand of plebiscite taking you???
 
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The place where I come from, there's only difference between hindus and sikhs, that of turban.

Otherwise Hindus and Sikhs in kashmir are more brothers than brothers.:wave:
 
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Now it is pretty obvious that we think quite differently.As a matter of fact thinking is not something which can be called your area of expertise,let alone understanding Economics and the figures..
Now it is pretty obvious that most of your post is filled with..
"I think that way,you think that way".

"You talk like that ,I talk like that".
And this is the point in someones debate when he turns personal towards the other person by starting to pointing out his way of debate.This shows utter desperation of a person in a debate.

Your points are pretty much invalid to begin with,as you draw your own assumptions with that.Your points go invalid at this very point.You just assume way too much.While I shared the facts that pretty much speak for themselves
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Let us first decide who started with assumptions.
Isn't it a assumption that unemployment is a problem in kashmir.
"Are these speculations come out from a survey in which Kashmiris said that 'Because we are unemployed, So thats why we want Independence from India'??? "
There is no way the rattling of Indians that unemployment is a problem in Kashmir can be justified.
Unemployment is not a problem in Kashmir & it cant be a problem in kashmir.
Kashmir has so much resources that every kashmiri can make himself or his region a wealthy part of this world.
But its not the way Indians want Kashmir to be.
Can a person even can go to his workplace with ease when there are 0.7 MILLION armed mens in uniforms of indian army Pointing Guns towards him Outside his house???
The same armed men with ***** of raping thousands of unarmed innocent kashmiri womens,girls and children.
The same armed men who are the cause of disappearence of thousands of innocent unarmed kashmiri men.

Now for god sake please dont put this blame too on ISI because Reports of "Amnesty International,UN & INDIAN MEDIA ITSELF are enough to unviel dark faces belong to your country.

The state of Jammu and Kashmir has been troubled with militancy for a long period of time.Local trouble makers like the separatists have aided further into that trouble not to mention the employment of cross border terrorism as a state policy by Pakistan.The present President as well as the previous dictator of Pakistan have admitted to this,so no point in denying again the facts.

All these issues have seriously deprived the state off development and opportunities of employment.
I had mentioned before that some youth,who were engaged in stone pelting the day before,were also seen in army recruitment camps the next day.That tells so much about their ideology and desperation.

I have also mentioned that unemployment in India,which is almost at-per with developed countries like USA and much less than Pakistan,is not evenly distributed.It is much higher in Jammu and Kashmir.I hope that answers to pretty much of your points.
Wow wow. :woot:
You people are making world records of ignorance & putting your blames on others.
Now according to your opinion POOR PAKISTAN has deprived kashmiris from the RICHER INDIA by offering them handsome amounts.:rofl:
Pakistan's stance on kashmir was always remains the same That we are helping Kashmiris diplomaticaly.
Please elaborate when did we said that we used militancy in kashmir?
Oh no no actually this is not the question the question is that how CAN WE be engaged in any militancy in kashmir???

When worlds cruelest 1 MILLION armed mens are doing militancy in kashmir then how can any one needs to do any thing militarily?

The answer to this rubbish that we used militancy is that When after 2004's earth quake the American & NATO forces arrived in Azad jammu Kashmir Pakistan for relief efforts & remained there for a while why they couldn't found any militant training camp or facility there even there were reports of some spying by US forces in that region????
If there were any training camps then they could have been easily found by them & then reported to International media.but that didn't happen.
Why so???


It is because there were no training camps or facilities & thats why they couldn't found them.Simple as that
Quoting this phrase pretty much shows how much your mind can actually comprehend.Does the word surprise mean anything to you??You seriously surprised me this time with your thinking capability.Being surprised does not imply either agreement or disagreement.To be honest,I didnt expect Pakistan to be in such a bad shape,but then the agencies in force have done quite a bit of job their it seems.....



Do you actually know that Indian media is one of the most free media in the World,which has indeed significantly contributed to the development by showing us where actually is our fault and which mistake we need to rectify.We dont have anybody like Zaid Hamid in Indian media preaching hate,vandalism and radicalism.Here we have educated and sober journalists like Barkha Dutt and Pranab Roy.
Joke of 21st century :rofl:

Now for Biasness there is another term being Invented by nforce that biasness is freeness.

Now tell me you said the rubbish about unemployment.Suppose if your point is taken to be true then why this upheavel in kashmir is cannot be stopped by eradicating the so called employment problems???
Its whose responsibility to show all of these problems???
Isn't its medias responsibility???

Before posting this foolishness have you stepped out from the cave in which you live?

Listen Guy/girl now the world has changed so much that if a person,organization or a state listen two different news from two differnt chanels, One from Pakistan suppose Geo or Express and another from india,can be any channel (Apart from the means of TOI)
Then do you on which one he/she,it/they will put there ears???
the answer can be find out with this fact that former ones channels has a record of not posting such things which didn't belong to reality & the latter ones.... , Now what what can I say they sometimes surpass the fiction movies of hollywood.I think you got the answer.

About Zaid Hamid,
The only Thing i can say is that whatever he thinks or speaks didn't comply with indian minds thats why he is biased,
But the Biasness spurred by some indian journalist is not biased(According to the Indian mentality) because they comply with indian mentality:rolleyes:

Do you know,it was these very Kashmiris who informed the Indian Army of militant invasion back in 1948.It was again these Kashmiri shepherds who informed the Indian army about intrusion by Pakistani infiltrators at Kargil in 1999.That tells so much about the general consensus and the idea of brotherhood.

As a matter of fact,some Pakistanis are delusional about this idea of brotherhood.They tried to be close to the Americans,but now these Americans are pounding Pakistani areas with their jets.Pakistanis tried to be close to the Arabs and even sent fighter-pilots against the Israelis.But they never came to return the favour.The Pakistanis think of the Chinese as brothers.But they never came to their rescue during the all 4 wars.You now think of Kashmiris as brothers,but then the Pakistani infiltrators were spotted by Kashmiris only and they took a beating in the hands of JAKLI,again raised from Jammu and Kashmir.
Dont call the minority groups of kashmir as a whole of kashmir.There are also hindus & other groups live in kashmir who obviously want to join India but the majority is muslim & wants to join Pakistan.

Do you know that these kashmiris helped to liberate the half of the kashmir which is now called AZAD JAMMU & KASHMIR.
Do you know that in 1948 these kashmiris fight against the dogra raj in jammu :azn:

Dont call support of those minority groups as a support of whole kashmiris.


And we never tried to be in close with American.Perhaps Pakistani nation didn't.
The relation of Pakistan & US is more than a relation ship of needs of both.

But relation ship with china is brotherhood.

You said about chinas support in war.
They were the one who helped us militarily in 65.
They provided us a lot of help to build our armed forces.
They were the ones who informed us about the Planned collective indo-israel Invasion on our Nuclear sites.
If you dont have friends like china then dont say anything about the sincerity & brotherhood about Pak-china relations.

And we din't helped Arabs to get some support in exchange& niether we expected it.

Well you tried hard to derail the point of kashmiris brotherhood towards pakistan by bringing America,china and Arabs but you failed.
The change is pretty much obvious as we can see it.....While India is well on her path to be a global power,with relations all over the World and second fastest growing economy,Pakistan already features in the Top 10 of the Failed state list,with Forex reserves hitting a low of US $ 8 billion with external debt almost 8 times of it and very less or no means to pay it off in any near future.

Regarding facing consequences,at first you deal with the mess that your country has created(The Taliban),then you may be in a position to talk about that.The land of my country is not being pounded by a foreign air force,but yours is,as we speak...

Yes the change is pretty much obvious.The kashmiris didn't want to live with Rising power India but with trouboled Pakistan.

The TTP is a mess created by Indo-Us
& Afghan taliban are not a mess.


In the End Unemployment is not a problem in kashmir.But indians are trying to make this excuse as a escape goat.
 
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Anti-India rally held in Kashmir


Don't worry. it will be put down soon.

oh, i'm sure it will be nobody denies that

by the way, aren't bandhs and protests allowed in hindustan? This pretty much negates this whole ''integral part of india'' broken-record rheotoric we keep hearing

thanks for clearing out, and refuting this misconception shared among some of your people


:tup:
 
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That's a contradiction. See, the people of Kashmir see Kashmir as their own land. They want to live there- however, they don't want to be with India (they have their own reasons). So the only answer is to break off Kashmir. Why would they want to move out if they want to live in Kashmir? No, they will fight for independence. Also, note that "Dumping them across the border to the land of honey and milk" is actually not okay. You are showing that you just want a piece of land that the Kashmiris see as their own- after all, it has a Muslim majority (i.e. wasn't supposed to go to India).

those same Kashmiri's showed no remorse in throwing out others i.e. Pandits, Shia's, Buddhists, Sikhs (conversion threat) and Christians (school burning). They are willing to punish any and everyone who does not seem to agree with them on the matter of cessation from India.

Booting out other communities and then asking for plebeside is like having your cake and eating it too.

Besides, nations act in self intrest. Let me take the example of Pak's "taller than mountains" friend China. It occupied tibet in the most brazen way possible on the fragile premise that it was a part of ancient China. Tibet was a sovereign nation state with it's own government, culture and foreign relations but that never stopped china as it continues to hold on to tibet because that is in china's National intrest. Natives of Tibet be dammed.

In the same way Kashmir is in India's national intrest, it is the source of fresh water, seperates China and Pakistan geographically for without it the connectivity between both would have been seamless and much faster. That is enough reason to hold on to the valley land. The local Sunni Muslims be dammed.

Also, an independent Kashmir would become a client state of Pakistan which in turn is a client state of China and America and India dos not want that situation either.

So , Local Kashmiri's would do well to make peace and settle for Autonomy at Max. with Foreign relations and defence being in India's hands. Using violent methods will only get them killed and frankly the world no longer cares for Extremist Islamist movements.
 
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"India is forcing us to cross the Line of Control and we will, if it does not stop atrocities in Indian-occupied Kashmir," said Syed Salahuddin, a leader of Hizb-ul-Mujahedin.
Perhaps this clown leader of H-u-M should attempt to cross the LOC himself first before advicing the locals to cross into Indian Kashmir.

GOD willing, I wish he would and see the carnage his followers had committed. This butcher should grow some ballsack, instead of trying to convince locals to do ISI's dirty work for them.
 
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