Kashmir Issue - Choose a Mediator

[Spectre]

Like I said. Decision is yours. If you think it infringes upon it, if you think they are mutually exclusive - you may have to take one and leave the other. How can I give a formula for you?

Never mind, either you are missing my point, or you are being intentionally obtuse or I am myself not making sense due to the late hours, liquor and lack of sleep.

Anyway have a great Sunday; I am off to sleep.

 

[RanvirSena]

I won't derail this thread, suffice to say I have seen people close to me suffer by the hands of Ranvir Sena

BS, provide proof. Take this to another thread and tag me there.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Like I said. Choice is yours. Food and women - I think all men will love that. Of any country.

Never mind, either you are missing my point, or you are being intentionally obtuse or I am myself not making sense due to the late hours, liquor and lack of sleep.

Anyway have a great Sunday; I am off to sleep.

Yeah. Guten nacht.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

No one is handing over the Keys of Kashmir or Arunachal Pradesh to any one. I am not asking for ceding one inch of our territory but simply formalizing LoC to IB which would close this sad chapter and stop any further drama on Kashmir. Pakistan will have lot to gain too - Trade with India, Stop Bankruptcy in order to gain military parity with India, may be gurantees on water resources, freedom to concentrate on evils within and hence forth.

Mate, you are again assuming that Pakistan would accept to formalize LoC to IB. If you didn't know it, this has already been proposed to them long back. But why would Pakistanis accept that? They obviously have been emboldened by our concessions so far and now want the whole of Kashmir. So what is the point in even offering to formalize LoC to IB.

Besides, you again assume that settling Kashmir will settle everything between India and Pakistan. Why would Pakistan, emboldened after wresting Kashmir, stop at just that when she thinks that similar experiments can be replicated elsewhere in India?

If I were Pakistan, I would be an imbecile to stop needling at India after wresting Kashmir. I would poke and needle at other vulnerabilities of India, even if I didn't want to occupy them myself!

Pakistan, in my view, would stop at nothing less than total disintegration of India which would suit their strategic interests better. Besides they think they need to avenge 1971!

If you think IA deployment and AFSPA in Kashmir is not having adverse effects then you have your head buried in sand.

Like I said, it is the success of Pakistani Propaganda machinery when Indians mix the cause and consequence of Army deployment in the Valley.

I don't deny some isolated (might I add, rare) incidents of Army excesses. But to suggest that IA deployment has made more terrorists, is preposterous.

The Army had to be deployed in the first plcae, only after the 'true' Kashmiris (read, the Muslim Kashmiris), aided and abetted by proxies across the border, started hunting/pillaging/raping down Pundits, burned their properties while the neighbors looked on. Now that Army is keeping a watch on those elements turning on Pundits again and preventing them having a field day, they cry hoarse!

Even if you can convince me that IA deployment caused more terrorists, this is the only way India can stop massacre of minorities in Kashmir. The day you redeploy IA, you will see a second round of unfinished business, a la 1980's! So it is not going to happen.

The 'true' Kashmiris (again read, the Hurriyat elements) just have to suck it up and learn to live with that.

No one will throw nuclear weapons away, they will remain a source for deterrent. Why did France and UK did not throw away their nukes despite having minimal threat perception in pre Putin and post Soviet Era Russia

Mate, it took the whole disintegration of USSR to calm things down a notch. Even then, nothing has settled. The tensions are still simmering and with Putin annexing Crimea, I think it is only a start.

Besides, it is atrocious to compare France/Britain and Russia to India and Pakistan. Not only do we share a land borders (unlike them), there are religion-based divide that would prevent any permanent settlement without one party ceasing to exist.

Formalize LoC to IB? Provide security to Pakistan on the water problem in addition to existing treaties?

Mate, this is getting more and more ridiculous! India is committed to IWT and has followed the treaty both in letter and spirit, despite 3 wars and countless Mumbai-like horrors, Kahlistani/Kashmir like insurgencies.

Now, for you to make a new suggestion like this, is to totally deny India's commitment. Even the Pakistani representatives don't question India's commitment when it comes to 'water'!

So what's your game? What's going on here?

 

[Post Colonnial]

In fact India should do its bit to speeden the downfall, this will really solve the Kashmir tangle for us

I agree Pakistanis are hell bent on destroying themselves due to false bravado over failed ideologies; but speeding up the decay will not help. A slow rot as at present gives them a chance to realize (may be, hopefully) and try to correct - but a faster slide may lead to serious human misery that India will have to step in and help ameliorate (as happened in 1971).

Oh even if you select a mediator ,do you know who are we to speak to In pakistan is it the army ,politicians or any one else ?

this has been answered several times over by Pakistan. With most of their leaders, whether civilian or military, having been killed, jailed or exiled, nobody there actually has any credibility to negotiate anything. You put something together with Musharraf and they will renege on that when he leaves saying he was a pretender to power. You put something together with Nawas Sherief (latest eg Ufa) and they will renege on that because their army didn't like being exposed. You try to get both together and they will probably renege on even that claiming temporary sanity.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

That is obvious. If two can't, three definitely can't. For that to happen, one big power needs to restrain the other two. I don't see either India or Pakistan to submit to a third power voluntarily.

I think the gameplan (or hope) of Pakistan is to involve a 3rd party, pawn herself out to that party and then take a vote among the three for the resolution.

If you ask me, there is nothing to resolve in Kashmir. Unless the resolution demands Pakistan 'handing G-B over to India'.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Being a Non Muslim and Non Hindu I am not sure how am i supposed to answer the second part.

Kashmir is a Hindu Muslim Battle

Non Muslim and Non Hindus wont UNDERSTAND IT

 

[Spectre]

Kashmir is a HINDU Muslim Battle

Non Muslim and Non Hindus wont UNDERSTAND IT

If you say so.

So what's your game? What's going on here?

Maybe I am a false flagger, May be I am anti national Congress and AAP fan, may be I have borrowed Rahul Gandhi's intellectual skills, May be I had an attack of temporary insanity or may be I am just brutally honest.

Take your pick

 

[kadamba-warrior]

Maybe I am a false flagger, May be I am anti national Congress and AAP fan, may be I have borrowed Rahul Gandhi's intellectual skills, May be I had an attack of temporary insanity or may be I am just brutally honest.

Take your pick

Sorry mate, I really got carried away.

But then, you haven't answered any of other questions that I asked and many others asked on the subject.

 

[Spectre]

Sorry mate, I really got carried away.

But then, you haven't answered any of other questions that I asked and many others asked on the subject.

It's alright, I am not hear to answer questions to which millions of much more qualified people than me for decades haven't found an answer. Buddy, I am not that arrogant.

I had an opinion, I expressed it for debate and discussion. I have tried to put forward my reasoning and it is perfectly fine if you have differing opinion. I have tried multiple times to offer reasoning and answers for my views and do a cost benefit analysis of having a mediator. You are welcome to scroll through 100 plus posts and see them and if you haven't found the answer to your queries even then, then I am sorry I don't have them and thus have purposefully ignored those points

In the end both you and me want what is best for India.

Regards

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Spectre

Seeing your age in your profile ( 30 ) I dont know whether you remember the period
from 1990 to 1994 ; which was the toughest for India regarding the Kashmir issue

Economically we were weak ; there were big problems at home
ie 1 The Ram Mandir issue and the violence there after
2 The post Mandal tensions

Add to it Kashmir ; North East and Punjab

Kashmir was literally a WAR zone with THOUSANDS of Casualties every year
The present violence is nothing

All these issues made Pakistan believe it could snatch Kashmir from India

And USA too was making life difficult for India
It was taking REVENGE for our Cold War association with USSR ; BTW
USSR had disappeared leaving India alone and vulnerable

USA was also pressurising us on GIVING up our Nuclear weapons and signing the NPT
CHINA was goading USA to get India's signature on NPT

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any way ; The Idea of this brief history lesson was to tell you and ALL other
Youngsters who get NERVOUS with casualty figures is that we have
seen very very bad days and YET refused all possible attempts for mediation
on Kashmir by UN ; US ; China and OIC
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those days there was NO internet ; All we youngsters had was
K Subrahmanyam's articles in Newspapers whereby he apprised us of
GLOBAL conspiracies against India by US; China and Pakistan combined

GOD bless his soul
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
India has never been in a better situation
vis a vis Pakistan We have had a very LONG wait for making the world REALISE
and accept that Pakistani sponsored terrorism is the real problem

Pakistan's actions and duplicity with USA in AFghanistan and the Osama bin laden story
has helped us in completely sweeping away the Kashmir issue

Then there is the ECONOMIC and military difference between India And Pakistan
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So the bottom line is forget even TALKS about Kashmir ; mediation did NOT happen
even in 1990 ; rather we DID not allow it

The ONLY issue is TERRORISM ; Talk only about terrorism

India has Become VERY Strong and very confident

Pakistan is NO match for India either economically ; militarily
or in terms of DIPLOMATIC influence

 

[Spectre]

@Spectre

Seeing your age in your profile ( 30 ) I dont know whether you remember the period
from 1990 to 1994 ; which was the toughest for India regarding the Kashmir issue

Economically we were weak ; there were big problems at home
ie 1 The Ram Mandir issue and the violence there after
2 The post Mandal tensions

Add to it Kashmir ; North East and Punjab

Kashmir was literally a WAR zone with THOUSANDS of Casualties every year
The present violence is nothing

All these issues made Pakistan believe it could snatch Kashmir from India

And USA too was making life difficult for India
It was taking REVENGE for our Cold War association with USSR ; BTW
USSR had disappeared leaving India alone and vulnerable

USA was also pressurising us on GIVING up our Nuclear weapons and signing the NPT
CHINA was goading USA to get India's signature on NPT

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any way ; The Idea of this brief history lesson was to tell you and ALL other
Youngsters who get NERVOUS with casualty figures is that we have
seen very very bad days and YET refused all possible attempts for mediation
on Kashmir by UN ; US ; China and OIC
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those days there was NO internet ; All we youngsters had was
K Subrahmanyam's articles in Newspapers whereby he apprised us of
GLOBAL conspiracies against India by US; China and Pakistan combined

GOD bless his soul
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
India has never been in a better situation
vis a vis Pakistan We have had a very LONG wait for making the world REALISE
and accept that Pakistani sponsored terrorism is the real problem

Pakistan's actions and duplicity with USA in AFghanistan and the Osama bin laden story
has helped us in completely sweeping away the Kashmir issue

Then there is the ECONOMIC and military difference between India And Pakistan
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So the bottom line is forget even TALKS about Kashmir ; mediation did NOT happen
even in 1990 ; rather we DID not allow it

The ONLY issue is TERRORISM ; Talk only about terrorism

India has Become VERY Strong and very confident

Pakistan is NO match for India either economically ; militarily
or in terms of DIPLOMATIC influence

I bow to your wisdom. It is true I don't have first hand experience of those turbulent times but I guess people from my age profile certainly appreciate the sacrifices made by elders.

Just a thought India of 90's sounds a bit like Pakistan of today except their problems are to a greater degree self inflicted

 

[Stag112]

The highly independent and sovereign state of ''My Middle Finger''!

 

[Makaramarma]

Here is the answer, read #1 and #3.

A covert operation almost resolved the Siachen dispute but was cut short by the death of Gen. Zia

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I think the gameplan (or hope) of Pakistan is to involve a 3rd party, pawn herself out to that party and then take a vote among the three for the resolution.

If you ask me, there is nothing to resolve in Kashmir. Unless the resolution demands Pakistan 'handing G-B over to India'.

I am not a morally upright person. Nor do I wish to be. I only put the benefits of my nation and civilization above others. Regardless of the cost.