Kashmir: If progress is to be made, India must dictate the terms

[The Unnamed]

Its quite clear that you have not read or understood the UN resolution/s and what conditions are contained therein............

As for talking with Paksitan; nothing wrong with that idea, I'm all for it.......have "chai-biskoot" discussions now and then, say "hello-goodbye" and move on. Till the next "chai-biskoot, hello-goodbye" parleys. While actively allowing people-to-people discussions!

One thing is now clear: the last of the leadership in India to have any pre-partition, across-the-border ties or connections have gone. Thus leading to the extinction of any emotional baggage, good or bad.
Which is a huge factorial change. Naturally this will get reflected in some change in trajectory, that is simply inevitable.

you wrote a long saga of prospective peace, disagreed with what india should do..got a positive rating and a couple of thanks. all dandy and randy !

but, let me make you aware of ground realities. india has awakened to the fact that radically formed and maintained muslim pakistan is a permanent threat to india and encouraging it in peace is in fact encouraging your own destruction. a month back, u got a response from india and got the message ? thats enough.

" what u say is not important. what is important is did u understand my point here ? "

is the message here.

thank you.

 

[VCheng]

If you could, please point me towards it, I would like to read it.

Here, for a few pages:

Pakistan briefs P-5 about security tensions on LoC, IB | Page 9

 

[Pride]

Again and again, we discuss the same issue without resolution. First thing first, Kashmiri People on the discussion are out of question. When India and Pakistan were created every provinces were supposed to decided by either King of the Province or Radcliff's resolution so no where it was asked for Plebiscite. India got J&K, Hyderabad and Other 500 Kingdoms so Pakistan got Kalat and NWFP so there should not be any chest beating on this.

It was then UN drama which is raised by Pakistan a lot of time while they never talk about Gilgit Baltistan which is made as a Province and Karakoram are which is gifted to China. So when there is no J&K of 1947 then there is No discussion or resolution. Creating a Azad Kashmir under the umbrella of Pakistan is mere Political drama and sooner Pakistanis will understand it will be easier for us to go ahead in right direction.

 

[VCheng]

Again and again, we discuss the same issue without resolution. First thing first, Kashmiri People on the discussion are out of question. When India and Pakistan were created every provinces were supposed to decided by either King of the Province or Radcliff's resolution so no where it was asked for Plebiscite. India got J&K, Hyderabad and Other 500 Kingdoms so Pakistan got Kalat and NWFP so there should not be any chest beating on this.

It was then UN drama which is raised by Pakistan a lot of time while they never talk about Gilgit Baltistan which is made as a Province and Karakoram are which is gifted to China. So when there is no J&K of 1947 then there is No discussion or resolution. Creating a Azad Kashmir under the umbrella of Pakistan is mere Political drama and sooner Pakistanis will understand it will be easier for us to go ahead in right direction.

The UN Resolutions have all been superseded by the Simla Agreement which bind India and Pakistan to resolve all their disputes bilaterally, with any third party mediation possible only if both agree to it.

 

[idune]

The point still remains, there is no visible meeting ground between Indian & Pakistani positions. What Pakistan wants, India will not give and Pakistan seems unwilling or unable to settle for less.

That is indian way of concocting the real issue - what Kashmiris want. For indians, don't chest thump and hide behind Pakistan position. India occupied Kashmir and refused to recognize rights of Kashmiris self determination - that is the fundamental issue.

 

[The Unnamed]

That is indian way of concocting the real issue - what Kashmiris want. For indians, don't chest thump and hide behind Pakistan position. India occupied Kashmir and refused to recognize rights of Kashmiris self determination - that is the fundamental issue.

will u stop lifting that lungi ? thanks but no thanks !

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

If that were actually true, India would have called Pakistan's "bluff" on implementing the UNSC Resolutions years ago. Analysts who bandy about these kinds of canards are essentially those who have reached the limits of their capacity to think beyond the narrow confines created by their "nationalism" - and the constricting nationalism being referred to here is not just that of Indians, but also some in the West, who have chosen "sides" and must validate their chosen "side" by inventing such poppycock (Christine Fair and Bruce Reidel come to mind, for example).

To move beyond the confines of such shallow "analysis" would require them to accept the fact that India's position on Kashmir is wrong, and requires compromise on the part of India, something beyond their intellectual capacities.

The same very resolutions that need Pakistan to move its troops back from Pakistan ôccupied Kashmir before anything happens....ask your army to fulfill that and then speak to India....kyun ...hai himmat?

 

[Kaniska]

I disagree. For Kashmir to be resolved, Pakistan needs to behave like an independent state with self-defined vital national interests. I don't mind global isolation. In fact, I welcome it. From the moment Musharraf got Pakistan involved with the U.S did we see a sudden rise in internal security problems. Not only that, but Pakistan lost its hand in Afghanistan and it gradually found itself giving way on Kashmir and the Indus Water Treaty.

It's time Pakistan adopt a hawkish mentality built upon guaranteeing its independence in both territorial and political terms. Despite the country's immense contribution to the U.S War on Terror, it has only been repaid in mistrust and drone strikes by America. Enough. The U.S can be on its own in Afghanistan, we have had enough.

Seal the Western border, leave the U.S and whoever's left in that quagmire to deal with the rest. Seal the border to the north, ensure that China's internal security is guaranteed from our end. As for India, tighten up the eastern front.

As for our foreign relations. There is no doubt backing away from America will result in a 'reset' in Pakistan's relations with a number of country. That's the cost of piggybacking on bigger powers. We will need to invest in building our own political, economic and military relationships with others. For that to happen, we will need an internal cleansing. I say we remove ourselves of the deadweight in PPP, PML, MQM, JI, etc, etc. You fail once, you never be given responsibility again.

Do not you think all your Army and Pakistan Gov does not know that US is the source of all problem in Pakistan?....But the million dollar question is why your nation is in a mode to self destruct itself that in spite of so many issues with US you still work with US?....I mean that is the fundamental question your Army and Gov need to ask?....It is your Army which is more dependent and asking US to stay than the GOv?....See the state of your nation, in spite of so much on internet bravado by pdf posters of Pakistan, Pakistan Army still work hand in hand with US and their drone team to kill its won people in Eastern Border..

Think about it, Indian army does so many nasty things in Kashmir...but it is our compulsion...Otherwise we can not control those militants in Kashmir...But you do not not such issues..still then you allow US to use you and exploit you and you do not do anything....

 

[Capt.Popeye]

On the contrary, it is quite clear that you have not read my repeated rebuttals of the Indian canard on the demilitarization conditions contained in the multiple UN Resolutions on Kashmir. Reference my post history and get back to me after you have read them.

The nonsensical canards concocted by writers such as Pant, Fair and Reidel have nothing to do with "historical baggage" - these canards are simply a reflection of limitations enforced by irrational nationalism.

I do not need to do that.
Firstly; you and other "worthies" from you side simply (and conveniently) overlook that "certain conditions" have to be fulfilled before any plebiscite can even take place in Jammu and Kashmir. Those conditions remain unfulfilled to this day.

Secondly; the Shimla Agreement has come into being. The terms of the Agreement have kicked in a long time ago, making the UN (or any other third-party) irrelevant to Kashmir. That is precisely the reason why other entities have consistently refused to get drawn in to mediating through the mess. But a good deal of time has elapsed since this issue was created "thanks to the shenanigans of some Non-State Actors and the State Actors hiding behind them in 1947". Even the world has moved on, it has no time or interest in what is happening in that part of the world. Now it is simply left to the good sense and sensibilities (if any) of India and Pakistan to sort out this problem between themselves. When and how that will happen, is still to be seen?

 

[Pride]

The UN Resolutions have all been superseded by the Simla Agreement which bind India and Pakistan to resolve all their disputes bilaterally, with any third party mediation possible only if both agree to it.

Exactly, Now please explain this to Politicians/Diplomats who want to involve Hurriyat in the discussion and ruined the Bi-lateral talks. Shimla Agreement also became void when in 1989 so called revolution (terrorism) was started by Pakistan and 1999 Kargil as it was supposed to be "Bilateral Talks" and not meddling in affair or attacking.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Shimla Agreement also became void when in 1989 so called revolution (terrorism) was started by Pakistan and 1999 Kargil as it was supposed to be "Bilateral Talks" and not meddling in affair or attacking.

Well, even then officially both India and Pakistan are bound by the Shimla Agreements.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

you wrote a long saga of prospective peace, disagreed with what india should do..got a positive rating and a couple of thanks. all dandy and randy !

but, let me make you aware of ground realities. india has awakened to the fact that radically formed and maintained muslim pakistan is a permanent threat to india and encouraging it in peace is in fact encouraging your own destruction. a month back, u got a response from india and got the message ? thats enough.

" what u say is not important. what is important is did u understand my point here ? "

is the message here.

thank you.

I have nothing against Peace. India desperately needs Peace; without it India cannot get anywhere worth-while. But India will have to find it and get it on its own terms, not under the shadow of some threats. The threat from any one cannot be the reason for anything, India will have to face upto that and all other threats. But do not overlook the fact that Pakistan is (and will remain) a threat as long as it wants to. Have you thought about who is responsible for creating that threat? Was it the ordinary people of Pakistan or somebody else in Pakistan? That is what you need to understand. That is precisely what I have been saying earlier as well as in the post that you responded to.

 

[OrionHunter]

The point still remains, there is no visible meeting ground between Indian & Pakistani positions. What Pakistan wants, India will not give and Pakistan seems unwilling or unable to settle for less.

Spot on. Pakistan wants to have the cake and eat it too.

> It wants us to vacate Siachen.
> It wants most of India's waters never mind the IWT.
> It wants a resolution of Sir Creek on its own terms.
> And most importantly it wants India to hand over all of J&K to Pakistan on a silver platter. It does think that a so called 'plebiscite' will be in its favor not realizing that times have changed and less than 2% want anything to do with an internationally isolated Pakistan which can give it nothing except poor governance and the widening Sunni-Shia schism. The Shia's of Kashmir abhor the very thought of joining Pakistan, not to talk of the Hindus living in J&K.

 

[The Unnamed]

I have nothing against Peace. India desperately needs Peace; without it India cannot get anywhere worth-while. But India will have to find it and get it on its own terms, not under the shadow of some threats. The threat from any one cannot be the reason for anything, India will have to face upto that and all other threats. But do not overlook the fact that Pakistan is (and will remain) a threat as long as it wants to. Have you thought about who is responsible for creating that threat? Was it the ordinary people of Pakistan or somebody else in Pakistan? That is what you need to understand. That is precisely what I have been saying earlier as well as in the post that you responded to.

Capn, dare I say I understand Pakistan ? Punjabis and bongs have this unfair advantage. kidding !

i mean...i know how pakistan has worked before, works now..and how it will work..i think..not bragging..but i know what u mean.

 

[toxic_pus]

Here, for a few pages:

Pakistan briefs P-5 about security tensions on LoC, IB | Page 9

You can catch him doing his mental gymnastics here as well.