Karzai says India is friend, but, Pak twin brother

[Windjammer]

Who is living in a well and bragging about it or who knows the vastness of an ocean are just some words to make one happy..kind of used to polish one's ego and nothing else...To be honest nothing wrong with it..we all need reasons to smile..Unfortunately we do that mostly at misfortune of others...

Anyways at the end of the day if you are happy with the way your country is growing/moving forward than nothing else matters...I am happy with the way my country is progressing...As of now Pakistan needs some help but will surely bounce back..So chill...

There you go again, more shots in the dark without even looking into the back ground. Any ways, what ever floats your boat.

 

[EjazR]

Pakistan will never declare war against a Muslim majority country, Pakistani people wont support it. India is the only country that we have battles against.

Its interesting that you say that. Because all the three wars that were fought, Pakistani people never had a chance to support or oppose it. It was the army that took unilateral action. Even in Kargil it was the same, Musharraf went on his own merry way. So none of the wars were approved by the elected Pakistani parliament unlike in India were a war resolution had to be passed except for the 47-48 war.

By the way, once the Soviet withdrew in 89. Afghanistan didn't have any foreign troops but Pakistan still supported "war" against the govt. of a Muslim majority country. Ofcourse, even then it was not int he hands of the elected representative to decide this.

 

[EjazR]

Thanks, i wanted to ask a question, because i never had any interest in Kashmir issue and i am not clear on many things. What is the stance of GoI regarding Kashmir? Jana says GoP want to let the kashmiris have their say either merging with one of these countries or independce, i am not sure about what india want.

The official-official stance implied is that the ENTIRE state of J&K including Pakistani kashmir and Gilgit Balitistan with its border touching Afghanistan is part of India and Pakistan has illegally occupied this part.

You must realize that there were no mass protests or opposition to being part of the Indian union until 1989 and by 1994-95 the indigenous part of militancy was finished. Infact, it was local opposition to Pakistani invasion that in the wars of 47-48, 65 and most recently in Kargil in 99 that Pakistan was not able to make any material changes or take over Indian state of J&K.

The backchannel negotiations haveshown that GoI stand can be softened to make the LoC as IB or more recently as per Musharraf-Singh forumula to make it a soft-border even if there are no changes in it but autonomy and join cooperation for J&K and Pakistani side of J&K. There was widespread agreement among various separatists on this except Geelani.

GoP position has never been for independnace of J&K. Jana dear is mistaken here. The people of Pakistan may want that but it was GoP that lobbied to remove the independence option on the UN resoltuoion and make it either India or Pakistan alone. Moreover, during the 89 -94 militancy years. It was Pakistani based extremist groups that assainated many pro-independence leaders. Unlike in India where separatists can openly organize rallies and give speeches as long as they are not turned violent in Pakistani Kashmir they are jailed and such parties banned. While in India separatists have stood for elections without restating their views on being separatists.

If you check out the UNHCR reports from 2010,2009,2008 e.t.c. you will see that they give a higher rating of political rights, civil liberties and freedom status to Indian Kashmir than Pakistani Kashmir.

 

[deckingraj]

It must be tempting to jump on the band wagon but instead of a history lesson, a little search in what i was replying to would have saved you all the effort.

Nothing like tempting...I think i had couple of discussions with you in the past on different topic...Just read a reply from you which i think was not justified/correct so shared my opinion...Did not take into account to what you replied bcoz kind of believe two wrongs don't make it right...Anyways just ignore my message and continue with your discussion....

 

[Omar1984]

Its interesting that you say that. Because all the three wars that were fought, Pakistani people never had a chance to support or oppose it. It was the army that took unilateral action. Even in Kargil it was the same, Musharraf went on his own merry way. So none of the wars were approved by the elected Pakistani parliament unlike in India were a war resolution had to be passed except for the 47-48 war.

Pakistani people always supported those wars against India. First Indo-Pak war was over Kashmir, Pakistani people supported the Pakistani government, army, and our brothers from tribal areas who freed almost half of Kashmir. Pakistani people always supports the Pakistan government and Pakistan army over Kashmir. 2nd Indo-Pak war was when India invaded Lahore, every Pakistani (in both West Pakistan and East Pakistan) supported the Pakistani government and Pakistani army in that war. 3rd Indo-Pak war was over East Pakistan (Bangladesh) and Pakistanis in West Pakistan supported Pakistan government and Pakistani army over that war.

Even today if there's a 4th Indo-Pak war then Pakistani people will always support the Pakistan government and army against India.

You can not compare Pakistan-India rivalry to the relations Pakistan has with Afghanistan.

By the way, once the Soviet withdrew in 89. Afghanistan didn't have any foreign troops but Pakistan still supported "war" against the govt. of a Muslim majority country. Ofcourse, even then it was not int he hands of the elected representative to decide this.

Pakistan never fought a war against Afghanistan or its government. I dont know what you're talking about. India is the only country we have major problems and battles against.

 

[deckingraj]

It is a good chance as you said because of huge interest from the other countries. But at the same time Pakistan and India are in such a position that they will probably be willing to come to a sort of agreement to leave Afghanistan alone or at least keep their distances from Afghanistan. I am sure in such a situation the 3 of these countries will be the winners. There is one thing for sure that the pre 9/11 will not come back to Afghanistan. The taliban will be integrated into the society if they want, but they wont be the rulers. Their integration shouldnt be a problem.

The bolded part is indeed the most important...As long as pre 9/11 era don't come back Indian will not have any concern and will keep its distance from meddling into AF internal affairs...If India will keep its distance i am sure Pakistan will follow the suit...However the crux is will Afghan be that strong to deprive Indians and Pakistan any significant role in shaping their foreign policy???...I wish them good luck with that...

 

[ramu]

Last i heard was, Patience is a virtue, with confidence, you thrive in a cyber community, show arrogance, they will avoid you. Now i let you judge that. But hey, never be mean to portray your pride and joy.

Last I heard was arrogant guys with a lot of knowledge but scarcity of wisdom.

Anyways, getting back to the topic:

The cheer leaders escorting India out of Afghanistan have mysteriously disappeared. The talk of Taliban as an alternate power centre is out of the window. With one stroke, Karzai has asserted his stand. He has crossed a mine filled corridor and managed to walk though it in style.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

but not Identical Twins

 

[Windjammer]

Last I heard was arrogant guys with a lot of knowledge but scarcity of wisdom.

Anyways, getting back to the topic:

The cheer leaders escorting India out of Afghanistan have mysteriously disappeared. The talk of Taliban as an alternate power centre is out of the window. With one stroke, Karzai has asserted his stand. He has crossed a mine filled corridor and managed to walk though it in style.

It's very simple, never take it at a face's value, as tomorrow is an other day. BTW also never underestimate any one, even if you don't approve of him.

 

[pkd]

Misconception between Afghanistan, Pakistan has changed: Karzai

ISLAMABAD, Mar 11 (APP): Afghan President Hamid Karzai Thursday said misconception between the two neighbouring countries has changed, leading to brighter prospect and would contribute in fostering congenial and conducive atmosphere. He was speaking at a meeting of the National Assembly Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs held here under the chairmanship of Asfandyar Wali Khan.

Asfandyar Wali Khan welcomed Afghan President Hamid Karzai and members of his delegation. He said relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan were not only based on religious bounds but also on the basis of fraternity of brotherhood and culture, spreading over centuries.
The Afghan President meeting with members of the parliamentary committee on Foreign Affairs would reciprocate and strengthen the relations between two Muslim countries, he added.
Hamid Karzai said he was glad to say that Afghanistan was treading on the path of democracy after decades. He wished to have an exchange of inter-parliamentary visits.
He said that the militancy and terrorism was the main issue sharing the concern between the two countries. Both countries would continue to tackle this menace.
He further said ,”we have engaged Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia to overcome the issue of terrorism/militancy.The said countries are cooperating with each other.”
Karzai said that the purpose of his visit was entirely friendly and to exert joint efforts to achieve the goal. “We are devising strategy to combat with terrorism and militancy,” the Afghan President said.
Minister for Foreign Affairs, Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi said that Hamid Karzai’s visit to Pakistan would go a long way to improve relations between the two countries.
He said that there was a consensus among all the political parties that the good brotherly relations with Afghanistan were in the interest of Pakistan. The peace and prosperity in Afghanistan would positively be contributing to Pakistan, he added.
The meeting was attended by Dr. Muhammad Farooq Sattar, Minister for Overseas Pakistanis, MNA Miss Palwasha Khan, Mrs. Farahnaz Isphani, Ms. Fauzia Habib, Syed Ghulam Mustafa Shah and Sheikh Aftab Ahmed.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Misconception between Afghanistan, Pakistan has changed: Karzai

 

[Creder]

This is good, this further confirms that Pakistan once again is taking to the stage and we are more actively involved in the Afghan process now. There are two factors that have contributed to this, Pakistan army's successful operations against TTP and the fact that state seems to have pushed itself to its limits on this one. Their patience is running out, they need to get out of Afghanistan and the only way they can do is if they forge a reconciliation between taliban and the Afghan government, this is good for Pakistan because now it can effectively cut out Indian influence within Afghanistan and put an end to their little proxy war. In order to maintain peace in Afghanistan, the current Afghani establishment will have to form a working relationship with taliban, and thats an oppurtunity Pakistan must utlize to the maximum

There are two things Pakistan needs to get out of this,

First, put an absolute end to India's proxy war by getting rid of the proxies, the Afghan intelligence for instance needs to be headed by a man who Pakistan has confidence in and is reliable, pakistan should actively get involved in training Afghan forces minimizing the presence of India's paramilitary forces withing that region

Second, Pakistan needs to pursue effective diplomacy with other muslim nations regarding building the infrastructre within Afghanistan, this is very important..the thing india has going for it is money, they are putting money into Afghanistan where no one else would..Pakistan can only contribute so much aid to Afghans having its own economy gone through hell and back these past few years. So an effective solution to this is convincing other muslim countries in bringing aid and infrastructre. This would be Ideal for the arabs because they would gain an effective foothold within Afghanistan against Iran.

Lot of things need to be done, the stage has been set once again, we are back in the 70's we have just fought of a proxy war, the Americans just like the russians are packing up..but this time we need to make sure we dont make the same mistakes as we did last time, an stable Afghanistan is vital for Pakistan but a stable Afghanistan cannot be so without Pakistan...Indians can pour tons of aid, but only Pakistan can bring peace..the Afghan "people" need to realise this ground reality

 

[ramu]

It's very simple, never take it at a face's value, as tomorrow is an other day. BTW also never underestimate any one, even if you don't approve of him.

Yes tomorrow is a new day. When everyone to my west were celebrating Afghanistan over Indian firewood just a day back, all I said was no official word from India and we do not know what is meant by scaling down.

Windjammer, I will not be stupid to judge you but all I expect of you is to give some respect to members of PDF even if they don't subscribe to your views. A lot of people (both Indians and Pakistanis) may not be able to present their case as well as you can. I know you are patriotic but so am I and all others who are here.

 

[rubyjackass]

The GoI's stance is that Kashmir is theirs whereas Pakistan in the start was having the same stance but still had view that its the Kashmiris who will decide.

Recently Pakistan has soften up to even independence of Kashmir if Kashmiris want.

White lies. If you believe what you wrote I feel terribly sorry for your state. Its not just you a lot of Kashmiris and Pakistanis are also under this false impression.



PS: For sake of political correctness, I will ask you proofs about where in Pakistani official statements did freedom mean secession. I bet you don't have any, dear.

 

[ramu]

This is good, this further confirms that Pakistan once again is taking to the stage and we are more actively involved in the Afghan process now. There are two factors that have contributed to this, Pakistan army's successful operations against TTP and the fact that state seems to have pushed itself to its limits on this one. Their patience is running out, they need to get out of Afghanistan and the only way they can do is if they forge a reconciliation between taliban and the Afghan government, this is good for Pakistan because now it can effectively cut out Indian influence within Afghanistan and put an end to their little proxy war. In order to maintain peace in Afghanistan, the current Afghani establishment will have to form a working relationship with taliban, and thats an oppurtunity Pakistan must utlize to the maximum

There are two things Pakistan needs to get out of this,

First, put an absolute end to India's proxy war by getting rid of the proxies, the Afghan intelligence for instance needs to be headed by a man who Pakistan has confidence in and is reliable, pakistan should actively get involved in training Afghan forces minimizing the presence of India's paramilitary forces withing that region

Second, Pakistan needs to pursue effective diplomacy with other muslim nations regarding building the infrastructre within Afghanistan, this is very important..the thing india has going for it is money, they are putting money into Afghanistan where no one else would..Pakistan can only contribute so much aid to Afghans having its own economy gone through hell and back these past few years. So an effective solution to this is convincing other muslim countries in bringing aid and infrastructre. This would be Ideal for the arabs because they would gain an effective foothold within Afghanistan against Iran.

Lot of things need to be done, the stage has been set once again, we are back in the 70's we have just fought of a proxy war, the Americans just like the russians are packing up..but this time we need to make sure we dont make the same mistakes as we did last time, an stable Afghanistan is vital for Pakistan but a stable Afghanistan cannot be so without Pakistan...Indians can pour tons of aid, but only Pakistan can bring peace..the Afghan "people" need to realise this ground reality

Any reason for saying that ... cut out is relatively a strong expression. But I haven't heard anything from Karzai or the Indian side. Are we not getting ahead of ourselves here ?

Till date, no proof in any form that is verifiable is presented on any platform by Pakistan. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Windjammer]

Yes tomorrow is a new day. When everyone to my west were celebrating Afghanistan over Indian firewood just a day back, all I said was no official word from India and we do not know what is meant by scaling down.

Windjammer, I will not be stupid to judge you but all I expect of you is to give some respect to members of PDF even if they don't subscribe to your views. A lot of people (both Indians and Pakistanis) may not be able to present their case as well as you can. I know you are patriotic but so am I and all others who are here.

Frankly the news also appeared in TOI, some member posted the link.
There was news of Indian mission cutting back. Anyways, the roof lifter here is what Karzai supposedly said at a press conference. Albeit it's said the guy doesn't have any authority outside Kabul, but that's his headache, members here only seem to divulge into the terms of a friend and twin brother, seriously do you really believe what you said in an earlier post. Does it matters what Karzai says and claims. By all accounts, after the last election debacle, he shouldn't even be in office, hence tomorrow indeed is another day.
Now talking of respect, well buddy it takes two to tango. I may not be right in my arguments but one thing is clear, i will never cross the line by using insulting or abusive language, but if the other member is not as courteous, well hell, turning the other cheek is a term of a by gone golden era. As the rule applies, give respect to earn like wise.