Karrar MBT l Updates, News & Discussion

[Fafnir]

It's not disappointing! What's important is the advanced electro optics, sensors, communication systems, digitalization of all systems, a faster auto loader, fast information processing power, more advanced added armor, active protection system, data link,...

The day's were the tanks cannon mattered are over! In 2003 despite having the advanced Abrams tanks the biggest killer of Iraqi tanks were ATGM's! so the T-72 cannon is more than sufficient as long as it's backed by advanced electronics

"The day's were the tanks cannon mattered are over!"

 

[Arminkh]

"The day's were the tanks cannon mattered are over!"

Well he kind of has a point.

The scenario of tank against tank battle like those of WW2 are becoming less likely. Usually, tanks are killed using airborne attacks. The only case where Karrar is going to see a fist fight with another tank is if one of our neighbors attack us which is highly unlikely.

 

[arashkamangir]

It's not disappointing! What's important is the advanced electro optics, sensors, communication systems, digitalization of all systems, a faster auto loader, fast information processing power, more advanced added armor, active protection system, data link,...

The day's were the tanks cannon mattered are over! In 2003 despite having the advanced Abrams tanks the biggest killer of Iraqi tanks were ATGM's! so the T-72 cannon is more than sufficient as long as it's backed by advanced electronics

You are right but I had hoped to see a new gun for launching more effective anti armor rounds. I guess we have to wait and see as demand arises if Iran will address those problems.

 

[Fafnir]

Well he kind of has a point.

The scenario of tank against tank battle like those of WW2 are becoming less likely. Usually, tanks are killed using airborne attacks. The only case where Karrar is going to see a fist fight with another tank is if one of our neighbors attack us which is highly unlikely.

Just because something is unlikely doesnt mean it wont ever happen one only has to look at the last 30 years of history to see that simple fact.People like vevak have been proclaiming the death/obsolescence of the tank for decades and yet not only are they are still being built but you are now seeing next generation designs like the armata t14 that is not just a development of a cold war era platform,now as for his ridiculous statement that a tanks gun doesnt matter,the simple fact of the matter is that a tank is only as good as its gun,you can have the best systems on the best hull in the world but without a decent gun and ammo to go with it its virtually worthless one only has to look at the continued development of the 120mm rheinmetall gun and ammo by the west to see that not to mention the ongoing programs to produce its 130/140mm successor.The simple fact is this iran badly needs a brand new tank and that tank needs to have the best ie most modern gun and ammo combination it can get because you can be certain thats exactly what irans enemies will have equipping their tanks.

 

[Blue In Green]

How tactically viable is the Karrar given Irans geography? Will this tank be used in the traditional sense as in armored tank columns and large battalions or will iran take the Syrian Civil war approach and use the tank in smaller but more effective roles.

I remember reading a while back that some Iranian military official said Iran doesn't need big tanks but rather small more versatile tanks that are cheap to produce and can be fielded in large numbers do to how expendable they are.

 

[Bahram Esfandiari]

One of the biggest advantage that this new Karrar tank has over the Zolfagar Tank designs is its modular design which means that it is more easily upgradable as new technologies become available especially its composite and reactive armor package. I would like to see technologies developed for the Karrar such as the FCS,ERA and the RWS being employed in upgrading Iran's older tank fleets to modern standard. I think that if the budget is available it could be possible to mate the Karrar's entire turret and ERA to older T-55/69 and T-62 tank hulls to replace the dated T-72Z upgrade program.

 

[Bahram Esfandiari]

For those who are lamenting the Karrar for having the less advanced 2A46M gun please remember that even the mighty M-1 Abrams was originally armed with the same M-68 105mm rifled gun as the M-60 tanks that it was designed to replace. Iran will surely upgrade the armament and ammunition on the Karrar as new options become available.

 

[yavar]

Iran turns its back on Russia and China with own battle tank

Iran has begun to mass produce a new battle tank as Tehran looks to reduce its reliance on Russian imports to bolster its military arsenal.
The Karrar (striker) tank is being hailed as a breakthrough in Iran’s military capabilities, but it closely resembles the export version of Russia’s T90MS and comes months after Tehran formally suspended talks with Moscow on buying that model.


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i...ssia-and-china-with-own-battle-tank-rdfnn9sfd

 

[scythian500]

For those who are lamenting the Karrar for having the less advanced 2A46M gun please remember that even the mighty M-1 Abrams was originally armed with the same M-68 105mm rifled gun as the M-60 tanks that it was designed to replace. Iran will surely upgrade the armament and ammunition on the Karrar as new options become available.

But Karar is armed with a 125mm main gun.. am I right!?

 

[arashkamangir]

But Karar is armed with a 125mm main gun.. am I right!?

yup.

 

[Arminkh]

Just because something is unlikely doesnt mean it wont ever happen one only has to look at the last 30 years of history to see that simple fact.People like vevak have been proclaiming the death/obsolescence of the tank for decades and yet not only are they are still being built but you are now seeing next generation designs like the armata t14 that is not just a development of a cold war era platform,now as for his ridiculous statement that a tanks gun doesnt matter,the simple fact of the matter is that a tank is only as good as its gun,you can have the best systems on the best hull in the world but without a decent gun and ammo to go with it its virtually worthless one only has to look at the continued development of the 120mm rheinmetall gun and ammo by the west to see that not to mention the ongoing programs to produce its 130/140mm successor.The simple fact is this iran badly needs a brand new tank and that tank needs to have the best ie most modern gun and ammo combination it can get because you can be certain thats exactly what irans enemies will have equipping their tanks.

Yes the enemies will be equipped with best guns out there but to overcome that problem, Karrar needs better armor which has already been improved significantly.

Now if it survives a direct hit of enemies' tank shell (which has nothing to do with its gun), let's see if it can fire back and destroy the enemy tank:

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/2a46.html

The difference between 2A46M and -5 variant is:

1- Barrel life is 50% more which is due to -5 having the chromium linear. I don't see this being a tough upgrade for Iranian industry and might as well have been added to what they are using on Karrar.

2- Everything else is the same but the max chamber pressure. Higher chamber pressure resistance allows -5 to fire APFSDS while the one on Karrar can't. To my knowledge Iran does not posses or produce APFSDS shells.

Barrel life is important but I don't think it is something Iran can't overcome. Shorter barrel life in M varriant is due to high strain on interior surface of the barrel. With the technologies available today, it's is much easier to solve this problem than it was back in 70s and 80s.

Use of APFSDS, although important, is a mute point for Iran as they don't have the projectiles anyway. Working on more efficient ATGMs can overcome this problem which Karrar is capable of using.

So again and given the circumstances, yes it would be ideal to have the best gun out there, but the reality is we don't and it is not something that cannot be made up for with other measures. Between a lower grade gun that Iran can produce locally and a higher grade one that needs to be imported, I would go with the local one every day.

Kornet missile VS Abrams in Iraq:

Saudi Abrams destroyed using guided missile (said to be Iranian Tousan):

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/houthi-rebels-destroy-m1-abrams-tanks-with-basic-irania-1726478735

 

[PeeD]

@Arminkh

your chart shows Iran has the -2 variant with chrome liner and 6500 bar pressure. So basically the same as -5. However I think the chart is outdated because the -5 is marketed for having the same performance as the 120mm gun. Hence it should have a higher pressure than the 6500 bar.

Furthermore Iran produced BM42 APFSDS locally.

So the Iranian produced -2 gun is the product of 1992 and the -5 that of 2005. Its 6500 bar pressure gives it a higher performance than the gun used on the T-72M, T-72M1, T-72A, T-72AV an early T-72B.

 

[Arminkh]

@Arminkh

your chart shows Iran has the -2 variant with chrome liner and 6500 bar pressure. So basically the same as -5. However I think the chart is outdated because the -5 is marketed for having the same performance as the 120mm gun. Hence it should have a higher pressure than the 6500 bar.

Furthermore Iran produced BM42 APFSDS locally.

So the Iranian produced -2 gun is the product of 1992 and the -5 that of 2005. Its 6500 bar pressure gives it a higher performance than the gun used on the T-72M, T-72M1, T-72A, T-72AV an early T-72B.

Even better.

Thanks for correcting me.

According to this Article, L55 120mm gun on Leopard 2A6 can withstand 84000 PSI pressure.

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Rheinmetall 120 mm gun

 

[Fafnir]

Yes the enemies will be equipped with best guns out there but to overcome that problem, Karrar needs better armor which has already been improved significantly.

Now if it survives a direct hit of enemies' tank shell (which has nothing to do with its gun), let's see if it can fire back and destroy the enemy tank:

View attachment 384369
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/2a46.html

The difference between 2A46M and -5 variant is:

1- Barrel life is 50% more which is due to -5 having the chromium linear. I don't see this being a tough upgrade for Iranian industry and might as well have been added to what they are using on Karrar.

2- Everything else is the same but the max chamber pressure. Higher chamber pressure resistance allows -5 to fire APFSDS while the one on Karrar can't. To my knowledge Iran does not posses or produce APFSDS shells.

Barrel life is important but I don't think it is something Iran can't overcome. Shorter barrel life in M varriant is due to high strain on interior surface of the barrel. With the technologies available today, it's is much easier to solve this problem than it was back in 70s and 80s.

Use of APFSDS, although important, is a mute point for Iran as they don't have the projectiles anyway. Working on more efficient ATGMs can overcome this problem which Karrar is capable of using.

So again and given the circumstances, yes it would be ideal to have the best gun out there, but the reality is we don't and it is not something that cannot be made up for with other measures. Between a lower grade gun that Iran can produce locally and a higher grade one that needs to be imported, I would go with the local one every day.

Kornet missile VS Abrams in Iraq:

Saudi Abrams destroyed using guided missile (said to be Iranian Tousan):

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/houthi-rebels-destroy-m1-abrams-tanks-with-basic-irania-1726478735

Of course iran produces apfsds,these are the main ap rounds used today with heat as a back up,iran has likely been producing its own 3bm-44 "mango" [1986 vintage] apfsds rounds since the mid 90s I would think,I even posted a picture of this a few pgs back.Its not just the gun thats the problem its the ammo as well,the old t72 auto loader cannot use the longer more modern rounds like the 3bm-42m "lekalo" and its successors.So in a nut shell this is the problem:irans 21st century karrar is probably stuck using the same gun,the same autoloader and the same ammo as its late 80s era t72s[I personally hope to god I`m wrong about this]

"Between a lower grade gun that Iran can produce locally and a higher grade one that needs to be imported, I would go with the local one every day."
Well you be sure to tell that to the tank crews who may have to face opponents equipped with the latest western tanks equipped with the latest version of the of the rheinmetall 120mm gun firing dm63s and a829a3/a4s,I`m sure it will be of great comfort to them as they shoot back with a 30 year old gun firing 30 year old ammo.

 

[Arminkh]

Of course iran produces apfsds,these are the main ap rounds used today with heat as a back up,iran has likely been producing its own 3bm-44 "mango" [1986 vintage] apfsds rounds since the mid 90s I would think,I even posted a picture of this a few pgs back.Its not just the gun thats the problem its the ammo as well,the old t72 auto loader cannot use the longer more modern rounds like the 3bm-42m "lekalo" and its successors.So in a nut shell this is the problem:irans 21st century karrar is probably stuck using the same gun,the same autoloader and the same ammo as its late 80s era t72s[I personally hope to god I`m wrong about this]

"Between a lower grade gun that Iran can produce locally and a higher grade one that needs to be imported, I would go with the local one every day."
Well you be sure to tell that to the tank crews who may have to face opponents equipped with the latest western tanks equipped with the latest version of the of the rheinmetall 120mm gun firing dm63s and a829a3/a4s,I`m sure it will be of great comfort to them as they shoot back with a 30 year old gun firing 30 year old ammo.

According to the chart that I posted, the chamber size of Iran's -2 variant is the same as -5 variant so both can use the same armament. And the -2 was built back in 90s not 80s.

I was not able to find anything about the pressure allowance for L44 but L55 max pressure is around 85000 (5800 bar) while in the chart I posted, -2 variant can accept up to 6500 bar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_120_mm_gun

@PeeD is this correct?

The speed of the projectile is a function of the max pressure the gun can handle. So in theory, Iran's Karrar projectile speed is above what L55 can fire if my calculations above is correct.

The projectile technology itself is a different story.