Karrar MBT l Updates, News & Discussion

[Mark Pyruz]

There are pictures of turret assembly in post #18 of this thread. Is that what you are looking for?

Thanks but that imagery is of main armament installation into turret, not turret manufacture.

- T-72B "anti-KE" NERA composite armor which in the 80's caused fear in the west that it could not be penetrated by available munitions. A quite good staring point.
This thick ERA was seen already back in 2012 on parade M60s...

Thanks for the helpful response. Yes, ERA modules attached to upper glacis plate similar to known existing examples and possibly local. However modules at turret and rear hull louvers appear as part of same kit as turret. Iran TV media imagery might suggest this is so, as these components were publicized together in what may have been a mock or partial mock assembly.

- As you suggested yes. The older 840HP engine of the T-72S certainly lacks digital sensors necessary for this system. Good observation.

At the minimum, withdrawing the powerpack would provide ideal opportunity for overhaul. At the maximum, replacement. Either would extend the service life of the upgraded MBT, and further validate the investment.

Note the vehicle digital instrumentation programming shared the same software program as the alternate screen for the same display, that appeared to include programming for map and location.

 

[AmirPatriot]

I suspect the Karrar is the result of a partial-tech transfer, primarily the turret design and Relikt ERA and the placement/concept of the RWS

And the gun...

 

[usamafarooqui2]

Good luck persian bros
GOD be with you and support you

 

[mohsen]

ALCON,

I guess I don't see what all this nasty arguing is about.

1) I don't see how anyone can deny the connection between the Karrar upgrade/rebuild and the T-90MS. The turret's external appearance is almost identical, down to the concept/location of the RWS. The visual similarities are FAR too great to simply due to coincidence or mimicking the design.
2) While the connection between the two is clear as day, there are still plenty of differences. The ERA on the hull for example, is completely different than the T-90MS.

did western countries help us in the Saba248 project too?! that one had a far more similarity!
someone in defense ministry has loved the T90MS conceptual design, that's it, the source of similarities and differences.

 

[OldTwilight]

did western countries help us in the Saba248 project too?! that one had a far more similarity!
someone in defense ministry has loved the T90MS conceptual design, that's it, the source of similarities and differences.

we are familiar with assembling T72 and made some part of it by ourselves , so looking at T90 as design candidate is so normal ...

as far as this Karrar tank increase our security , I won't give damn about others gossips ...

 

[mohsen]

also it's good to mention, while Karrar main gun and Russian 2a46M5 gun have similarities, yet they have quite obvious differences too, which voids the idea of purchasing this gun from Russia; unless someone wanna repeat the ridiculous idea that Russians have given part of the blue prints of the main gun too!

 

[AmirPatriot]

also it's good to mention, while Karrar main gun and Russian 2a46M5 gun have similarities, yet they have quite obvious differences too, which voids the idea of purchasing this gun from Russia; unless someone wanna repeat the ridiculous idea that Russians have given part of the blue prints of the main gun too!

View attachment 383867

The section you claim is absent is just mostly out of shot. But it is still there.

 

[VEVAK]

also it's good to mention, while Karrar main gun and Russian 2a46M5 gun have similarities, yet they have quite obvious differences too, which voids the idea of purchasing this gun from Russia; unless someone wanna repeat the ridiculous idea that Russians have given part of the blue prints of the main gun too!

View attachment 383867

It's the same Chassis & Cannon as the T-72's produced by Iran! Just like the T-90 it's an heavily upgraded T-72!

 

[PeeD]

Thanks but that imagery is of main armament installation into turret, not turret manufacture.



Thanks for the helpful response. Yes, ERA modules attached to upper glacis plate similar to known existing examples and possibly local. However modules at turret and rear hull louvers appear as part of same kit as turret. Iran TV media imagery might suggest this is so, as these components were publicized together in what may have been a mock or partial mock assembly.



At the minimum, withdrawing the powerpack would provide ideal opportunity for overhaul. At the maximum, replacement. Either would extend the service life of the upgraded MBT, and further validate the investment.

Note the vehicle digital instrumentation programming shared the same software program as the alternate screen for the same display, that appeared to include programming for map and location.

The turret is significantly different than that of the T-90MS, note the different gunners sight position etc. Hence it is almost certainly not Russian.

The upper glacis is protected by it and certainly they would not use less effective ERA for that critical area. The ERA at the turret is most likely the same, just shaped differently and depressed for turret top placement. Note the much higher discrimination in the Iranian Karrar ERA compared to that of the Russian T-90MS.

_________________________________________

The engine remains a mystrey, I don't know if the engine of the T-90MS has digital sensor output. If not, what do we see there? Certainly its based on the original Soviet engine design, otherwise dimensions and air intake/supply would have changed.

As for the -5 gun. This one has been developed since the mid 2000s, its at least possible that Iran requested tech transfer for T-72S production back then (replacing the tech transferred 2A46M provided in mid 90's). Its not as recent and new as the T-90MS and is not exclusively used by it. It would be hence not uncommon to change a license produced gun with the latest variant of the licensing company for a extra money.

 

[OldTwilight]

We learned lesson from Syria and Iraq and this is one of the result ...

 

[Dai Toruko]

I am not an expert but I think that's a T-72 chassis , with modified welded tarot ,and T-72 gun loading mechanism ,also with 125 mm smoothbore main gun of the T72 , that fires sabot, heat FS ,or heat farag.fs atgw or atgm but not kinetic energy penetrators . I think that Iran for the last type of ammunition doesn't have the technology for it , as it is a western type of ammunition so it's not easy and too early to compare this tank with the top most sophisticated western MBT in the world Leopard A2 , M1A1,M1A2,Loclirc ,Challenger2 Merkava and also the Russian T-90s , Armata , the Korean K2 and even the Turkish Altay.

 

[eagle2007]

ALCON,

Yep, definitely missed a lot of those smaller details (specifically the gunner sight location, which on the Karrar is closer to the center of the turret). I saw the nearly identical ERA design and layout on the turret and the location and the RWS and overlooked the rest.

Guilty as charged.

PeeD,

I have a question concerning your time estimates (how fast these upgrades/new manufacture could be conducted). What exactly do you base that on? It is based on open sources (while we clearly know Iran can perform major tank overhauls, images don't exactly show you how fast they are conducted) or on your own sources?

 

[Fafnir]

As for the -5 gun. This one has been developed since the mid 2000s, its at least possible that Iran requested tech transfer for T-72S production back then (replacing the tech transferred 2A46M provided in mid 90's). Its not as recent and new as the T-90MS and is not exclusively used by it. It would be hence not uncommon to change a license produced gun with the latest variant of the licensing company for a extra money.

I think that scenario is on the whole pretty unlikely as the un arms embargo was put in place way back in 2007 a good 5 years before the 2a46m-5 variant was first revealed in 2012 and the russians were very strict about following the un embargo,they even included systems like the s300 that were not actually covered by it,at least up until now that is...?

 

[Blue In Green]

So is there an agreed upon common ground regarding the Karrar? As in are we seeing a truly newly built tank straight off the assembly line with all 100% new parts or are these older t-72s that are being reformatted into the Karrar standard or even worse is this some sort of canibilized tank that using bits and pieces of all sorta of other tanks with a nice looking outside to hide it's deficiencies on the inside (I don't believe that this is the case, but some Western outlets are brining up some decent points, just as in the Saba helicopter where there were odd looking scratches and bend marks on a supposed new Helicopter the auto loader of these Karrar doesn't look all that new at least maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way).

Also why is it that almost all new Iranian weapons like new vehicles and such have scratches and bends all over them? There has to be a reason for this phenomenon, when the fotros was unveiled the same sort of akward bends and seemingly missing screws as well as weird placing of parts were present (yet again I'm not saying fotros is fake but the dents and bends were present on the fotros).

It's just that this issue has been bothering me for a good long time and Im trying not to come to conclusion that these are some sort of fake product but rather poor representations of the final product. Or maybe the manufacturer just is not good at showing a good final product, lots of reasons for why this might be.

 

[PeeD]

@eagle2007

These estimates are based on reports which I haven't at hand back from the early 2000s about the license production rate of the T-72S which would have taken 20 years to produce the license granted 1000 copies.

I base my estimate also on the production line which apparently produces 4 tanks simultaneously. If we assume a turnaround time of one month, we get ~50 tanks a year. I expect the line to be extended because they are not bound to a license and by now almost all subsystems are produced locally.
Iran has a good timing, back in the 2000s and more so in the 90s prices for thermal imaginers an sight systems where insanely high, now that the technology is mature and easily available, Iran can get performance of the best TI sights of the 2000s at a friction of the price and without any procurement problems.
Lets see where its engines come from, if these are also produced locally I stick with my 500k$ a copy cost estimate (means 8 Karrars for 1 M1A2). Bottle neck remains the ammunition... Lets see what they show in that field in future.

@Fafnir

I made the same mistake as you, connected the T-90SM with the -5 gun and thought its a 2012 product. No, it has been already used by the T-90S and has been put into production in 2005. Hence as the T-72S license production was ongoing in 2005, its possible that the lastest version of the gun was requested by Iran, not only due to higher performance but also because new versions ar often easier to manufacture and hence cheaper in production.