Karoonjhar Mountains: Commanding Heights

[SQ8]

Strong points, fortresses and defense lines were useful during the days when PGMs and penetrating warheads did not exist. Today’s warfare is all about maneuvering and repositioning: the static shall find their flanks sliced and their fronts bypassed.

 

[FuturePAF]

Strong points, fortresses and defense lines were useful during the days when PGMs and penetrating warheads did not exist. Today’s warfare is all about maneuvering and repositioning: the static shall find their flanks sliced and their fronts bypassed.

True, but you have to strike the enemy from somewhere, and a defensive position on the front line, is better than firing from out in the open. You can only move rockets around so much when the enemy is able to use spy satellites to knock out soft missile shelters. think of this like the 2006 war between Hezbollah and Israel. well entrench rockets got knocked out but after a lot of them reached the other side. this mountain range is 50 square kilometers in which to built tunnels and hide missiles. at the very least, this will hinder Indian operations in the south.

in a google earth kml circle generator; put in the coordinates: 24.3478083°, 070.7333861°
and make circles 290 km radius for a A300's Max range, 200 km for a A200 max range, and 100 km for the A100 max range.

This covers a lot of the southern theater of action, and frees up resources further north.
The next map is four corps attacking where Punjab, Sindh, and Baluchistan meet; reinforces with an Airborne Division launching an assault on Sui.

 

[SQ8]

True, but you have to strike the enemy from somewhere, and a defensive position on the front line, is better than firing from out in the open. You can only move rockets around so much when the enemy is able to use spy satellites to knock out soft missile shelters. think of this like the 2006 war between Hezbollah and Israel. well entrench rockets got knocked out but after a lot of them reached the other side. this mountain range is 50 square kilometers in which to built tunnels and hide missiles. at the very least, this will hinder Indian operations in the south.

in a google earth kml circle generator; put in the coordinates: 24.3478083°, 070.7333861°
and make circles 290 km radius for a A300's Max range, 200 km for a A200 max range, and 100 km for the A100 max range.

This covers a lot of the southern theater of action, and frees up resources further north.
The next map is four corps attacking where Punjab, Sindh, and Baluchistan meet; reinforces with an Airborne Division launching an assault on Sui.

Certain infrastructure already exists around these areas but as such surveillance of our formations is fairly high since the Indians now own space as well. So the trick now is to keep moving around and keep them guessing where what is.

Any static forces will get mauled by the air because of lack luster air defence capability of formations and infrastructure against stand off munitions.

 

[FuturePAF]

Certain infrastructure already exists around these areas but as such surveillance of our formations is fairly high since the Indians now own space as well. So the trick now is to keep moving around and keep them guessing where what is.

but moving around creates tell tale signatures that can be monitored for months if not years to pinpoint the soft shelters these weapons are moved to. building thousands of hardened mountain bunkers and tunnels is a harder shell game for the enemy to figure out, especially if movement is done in the tunnels and not out in the open. also once the tunnels are built, they can house all kinds of new weapons, in numbers you can afford and keep the enemy guessing.

 

[SQ8]

but moving around creates tell tale signatures that can be monitored for months if not years to pinpoint the soft shelters these weapons are moved to. building thousands of hardened mountain bunkers and tunnels is a harder shell game for the enemy to figure out, especially if movement is done in the tunnels and not out in the open. also once the tunnels are built, they can house all kinds of new weapons, in numbers you can afford and keep the enemy guessing.

How much does it cost to build a meter of tunnel in that particular geography?

 

[Signalian]

True, but you have to strike the enemy from somewhere, and a defensive position on the front line, is better than firing from out in the open. You can only move rockets around so much when the enemy is able to use spy satellites to knock out soft missile shelters. think of this like the 2006 war between Hezbollah and Israel. well entrench rockets got knocked out but after a lot of them reached the other side. this mountain range is 50 square kilometers in which to built tunnels and hide missiles. at the very least, this will hinder Indian operations in the south.

in a google earth kml circle generator; put in the coordinates: 24.3478083°, 070.7333861°
and make circles 290 km radius for a A300's Max range, 200 km for a A200 max range, and 100 km for the A100 max range.

This covers a lot of the southern theater of action, and frees up resources further north.
The next map is four corps attacking where Punjab, Sindh, and Baluchistan meet; reinforces with an Airborne Division launching an assault on Sui.

Let me throw you a challenge.

Pakistan army has 2 armoured and 2 mechanised divisions.

Indian army has 3 armoured and 4-5 RAPID's.

Now what's required is to tie down one of the Indian army's armoured division and one RAPID in south, 31 Armoured Div and 36 RAPID, near this mountain range. Since PA doesn't have any armoured div in south and PA 25 mechanised div is tasked to capture jaiselmer.

How would use the mountain range and area around it to keep Indian forces tied here.

 

[SQ8]

Let me throw you a challenge.

Pakistan army has 2 armoured and 2 mechanised divisions.

Indian army has 3 armoured and 4-5 RAPID's.

Now what's required is to tie down one of the Indian army's armoured division and one RAPID in south, 31 Armoured Div and 36 RAPID, near this mountain range. Since PA doesn't have any armoured div in south and PA 25 mechanised div is tasked to capture jaiselmer.

How would use the mountain range and area around it to keep Indian forces tied here.

More importantly, what is the strategic value of these ranges as such that would have the Indians wanting to engage here in the first place.

 

[Army research]

These localities would simply be bypassed if they really are strong, otherwise blown to smithereens by the might of the IAF, what is needed is investment in the airforce, without the PAF the PA would be toast

 

[FuturePAF]

How much does it cost to build a meter of tunnel in that particular geography?

More importantly, what is the strategic value of these ranges as such that would have the Indians wanting to engage here in the first place.

A feasibility study could be done to calculate the costs, and maybe ask the Chinese for their expertise, as they are know to have done tunneling for decades; both by hand and machines to house missiles.

The strategic value is to defend land routes to Karachi and Lower Sindh.

Let me throw you a challenge.

Pakistan army has 2 armoured and 2 mechanised divisions.

Indian army has 3 armoured and 4-5 RAPID's.

Now what's required is to tie down one of the Indian army's armoured division and one RAPID in south, 31 Armoured Div and 36 RAPID, near this mountain range. Since PA doesn't have any armoured div in south and PA 25 mechanised div is tasked to capture jaiselmer.

How would use the mountain range and area around it to keep Indian forces tied here.

Jaiselmer is 270 km from these mountains. Sukkur is 225km from Jaiselmer; with locations closer in are more likely to be out in the open; in the desert. A300 MBRL systems can be placed in tunnels in these mountains and rained down upon armor formations gathering there or on the way to the Pakistani Border. other missile bases could be made in the mountains west of sindh to hit enemy forces as they cross the border with a300, and then a200 and finally a100s, but by then the enemy will have gained the momentum. The mountains in the south are like sniper nests on the frontline.

If 25 mechanized Division is to capture Jaiselmer, it will have to deal with built up land defense in the desert and enemy air defenses protecting them. using missiles; rockets, cruise missiles, and other PGM to knock out these defense in some help from the PAF which would be busy with the air war mostly, is the way to go. only positions out in the open in Sukkur and surrounding areas have the ability to fire A300 missiles to support an assault on Jaiselmer. The forces in Sukkur would be picked up on SAR and EO satellites and the coordinates relayed to Indian Rafales launching strikes to knock out the missiles. This is also possible with assaulting the mountains in the south; but with thousands of tunnel openings and miles and miles of tunnels in between; the Indians would have to expel huge numbers of PGM to knock out possibly some of the missiles. in the mean time, the Indians could not gaurentee an assault in the south would not be met with missiles from these mountains unless they were positively knocked out. this is where the tie down happens.

Longer and Longer range missiles could be based here; like the iskander or M20; holding advanced submunitions and hold more of the desert in check.

these mountains, along with other mountain bases in Baluchistan and KPK Should be used to base missiles with Advanced PGMs to support our defense. The Karoojhar Mountains just looked particularity strategically advantageous being right on the border.

 

[Armchair]

I really appreciate that @Signalian is trying to teach us. There is much we can all learn from him.

 

[Signalian]

A feasibility study could be done to calculate the costs, and maybe ask the Chinese for their expertise, as they are know to have done tunneling for decades; both by hand and machines to house missiles.

The strategic value is to defend land routes to Karachi and Lower Sindh.



Jaiselmer is 270 km from these mountains. Sukkur is 225km from Jaiselmer; with locations closer in are more likely to be out in the open; in the desert. A300 MBRL systems can be placed in tunnels in these mountains and rained down upon armor formations gathering there or on the way to the Pakistani Border. other missile bases could be made in the mountains west of sindh to hit enemy forces as they cross the border with a300, and then a200 and finally a100s, but by then the enemy will have gained the momentum. The mountains in the south are like sniper nests on the frontline.

If 25 mechanized Division is to capture Jaiselmer, it will have to deal with built up land defense in the desert and enemy air defenses protecting them. using missiles; rockets, cruise missiles, and other PGM to knock out these defense in some help from the PAF which would be busy with the air war mostly, is the way to go. only positions out in the open in Sukkur and surrounding areas have the ability to fire A300 missiles to support an assault on Jaiselmer. The forces in Sukkur would be picked up on SAR and EO satellites and the coordinates relayed to Indian Rafales launching strikes to knock out the missiles. This is also possible with assaulting the mountains in the south; but with thousands of tunnel openings and miles and miles of tunnels in between; the Indians would have to expel huge numbers of PGM to knock out possibly some of the missiles. in the mean time, the Indians could not gaurentee an assault in the south would not be met with missiles from these mountains unless they were positively knocked out. this is where the tie down happens.

Longer and Longer range missiles could be based here; like the iskander or M20; holding advanced submunitions and hold more of the desert in check.

these mountains, along with other mountain bases in Baluchistan and KPK Should be used to base missiles with Advanced PGMs to support our defense. The Karoojhar Mountains just looked particularity strategically advantageous being right on the border.

Food for thought.

Engaging enemy's prime formations and luring them into an area isnt easy, unless ofcourse a portion of enemy's land is cut off and captured, like the area of the blue box.

Main issue is path of attack, @Army research , sir please form a solution for traversing the terrain. The yellow arrows depict the problematic areas.

1. This will help ensuring that enemy has to divert forces from Rajasthan area like Jaiselmer and surroundings.

2. Enemy reserves can be diverted here.

3. I doubt an armoured formation could come for rescue here, depends upon circumstances but chances of an amphibious attack from Dwarka on the coast from south and an airborne/air assault attack into Bhuj has bright chances.

This offense will tie up enemy airborne and amphibious assault forces here instead of attacking Pakistani soil.

 

[Armchair]

Food for thought.

Engaging enemy's prime formations and luring them into an area isnt easy, unless ofcourse a portion of enemy's land is cut off and captured, like the area of the blue box.


View attachment 474282


Main issue is path of attack, @Army research , sir please form a solution for traversing the terrain. The yellow arrows depict the problematic areas.

View attachment 474283

1. This will help ensuring that enemy has to divert forces from Rajasthan area like Jaiselmer and surroundings.

2. Enemy reserves can be diverted here.

3. I doubt an armoured formation could come for rescue here, depends upon circumstances but chances of an amphibious attack from Dwarka on the coast from south and an airborne/air assault attack into Bhuj has bright chances.

This offense will tie up enemy airborne and amphibious assault forces here instead of attacking Pakistani soil.

Sir, if I may, if you get to Lakadia you can threaten Ahmedabad on one axis and Rajkot / Jamnagar on the other axis.

Another interesting aspect is that you are threatening the main Indian military axis from Palasava-Benap-Tharad as well as the main road networks behind them Santalpur-Radhanpur-Deesa.

Now, this seems most interesting and intriguing and you've obviously put a lot of thought into this.

The question is the terrain and how it can be overcome, or IF it can be overcome or whether this will become a fool's errand.

There is no way of telling without spending a good deal of time on the terrain itself.

Off the top of my head, light armor like the Italian APCs could possibly be useful here. The Chinese have these really amazing hovercraft that could be very effective for ferrying soldiers and armor in this area. I believe they are the Zubr class.

WIGs also come to mind.

Or simply, just go with light APCs and customize a range of light support vehicles. Again Chinese have invested seriously in this sphere due to Taiwan and have a range of such products.

 

[Army research]

Food for thought.

Engaging enemy's prime formations and luring them into an area isnt easy, unless ofcourse a portion of enemy's land is cut off and captured, like the area of the blue box.


View attachment 474282


Main issue is path of attack, @Army research , sir please form a solution for traversing the terrain. The yellow arrows depict the problematic areas.

View attachment 474283

1. This will help ensuring that enemy has to divert forces from Rajasthan area like Jaiselmer and surroundings.

2. Enemy reserves can be diverted here.

3. I doubt an armoured formation could come for rescue here, depends upon circumstances but chances of an amphibious attack from Dwarka on the coast from south and an airborne/air assault attack into Bhuj has bright chances.

This offense will tie up enemy airborne and amphibious assault forces here instead of attacking Pakistani soil.

I agree with you but then the enemy generals would or could expect this and they simply just might let us keep this place, a ruse , a bait.
We would have to tie down troops and they would just simply forget about it or use their airforce to harass supply lines,
What's needed is an offensive and qualitative airforce, SEAD planes and planes with guided cluster munitions,
If we do get those then the PA would have a lot of tricks up its sleeves, eg in the 1980's when they faked a whole armoured division in the south (see zia ul haq cricket diplomacy)
If we achieve even temporary air superiority, indo pak wars are more physiological, initial gains would be massive morale boosts , the bulge in sindh should be eliminated by a pincer movement , then when the enemy is counter attacking there, Mine it and do a tactical retreat, then at that point in the war a credible marine force should along with small armour contingents or hovercraft supported troops cut that area off , using the media as a tool of war.
At this point really the Pakistani army is fully capable of at least defending from a land invasion , but paf can't hope to win against 272 su 30 , migs rafale, and if they can't pa tanks have no chance against those jaguars.
As for this mountain range , store munitions in balochistan , it will only take a few hours to drive with in striking range , fire then relocate,
Staying at one place is daft,
The maginot line was made exactly for that , all it tied down were German border guards , had the French used the construction money on the airforce, Germany could have lost and the British might have never left the subcontinent

 

[FuturePAF]

Food for thought.

Engaging enemy's prime formations and luring them into an area isnt easy, unless ofcourse a portion of enemy's land is cut off and captured, like the area of the blue box.


View attachment 474282


Main issue is path of attack, @Army research , sir please form a solution for traversing the terrain. The yellow arrows depict the problematic areas.

View attachment 474283

1. This will help ensuring that enemy has to divert forces from Rajasthan area like Jaiselmer and surroundings.

2. Enemy reserves can be diverted here.

3. I doubt an armoured formation could come for rescue here, depends upon circumstances but chances of an amphibious attack from Dwarka on the coast from south and an airborne/air assault attack into Bhuj has bright chances.

This offense will tie up enemy airborne and amphibious assault forces here instead of attacking Pakistani soil.

Insightful plan. Are you planning to push to the oil faculties/refineries at Vadinar/Jamnagar and cut off their supplies via the pipelines? Also you end up with a bargaining chip in the event we lose territory further north to trade back. This would be where the mountains provide cover fire to the assault.

 

[Armchair]

If you take Ladakia, you've neutralized the entire salient of Kutch, including Bhuj air base. This also brings Jamnagar air base within artillery range and puts Dwarka in a very precarious position. Basically you have cut-off and conquered Kutch district.

Now, why would India be bothered with this? Because they are losing an airbase, the 8th largest city in Gujrat, and because Ahmedabad, the 5th largest city in India is now under threat. Therefore, they would be forced to commit major forces to counter such a move.

But this battle for Kutch has to be within a context of a wider battle.