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Kargil War - A research paper by US Military on High Altitude Warfare

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Big deal, your mighty air force was conducting missions on your side of LOC, if Pakistani forces had intruded into your territory what stopped you from violating Pakistani territory, the fact even to conduct missions within your own territory, you needed assistance from the Israelis, and since you take pride in shooting down an unarmed airliner type aircraft, ask your former Gujarat energy minister, why does he contributes his life to the PAF. As for the joke, hope you also share your humour with the families of , Sqn Ldr Rajiv Pundir, Flt Sgt P V N R Prasad, Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja and others. !!

We did intrude inside the LOC

Read this Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently cocked-a-snoot at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.
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@Windjammer

This was the Reality of PAF during Kargil

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force


PAF in a Bind

From the very beginning of Kargil operations, PAF was entrapped by a circumstantial absurdity: it was faced with the ludicrous predicament of having to provide air support to infiltrators already disowned by the Pakistan Army leadership! In any case, it took some effort to impress on the latter that crossing the LOC by fighters laden with bombs was not, by any stretch of imagination, akin to lobbing a few artillery shells to settle scores. There was no doubt in the minds of PAF Air Staff that the first cross-border attack (whether across LOC or the international border) would invite an immediate response from the IAF, possibly in the shape of a retaliatory strike against the home base of the intruding fighters, thus starting the first round. PAF’s intervention meant all-out war: this unmistakable conclusion was conveyed to the Prime Minister, Mr Nawaz Sharif, by the Air Chief in no equivocal terms.

Short of starting an all-out war, PAF looked at some saner options that could put some wind in the sails after doldrums had been hit. Air Marshal Najib Akhtar, the Air Officer Commanding of Air Defence Command was co-opted by the Air Staff to sift the possibilities. Audacious and innovative in equal parts, Air Marshal Najib had an excellent knowledge about our own and the enemy’s Air Defence Ground Environment (ADGE). He had conceived and overseen the unprecedented heli-lift of a low-looking radar to a 12,000-ft mountain top on the forbidding, snow-clad Deosai Plateau. The highly risky operation became possible with the help of some courageous flying by Army Aviation pilots. With good low level radar cover now available up to the LOC, Air Marshal Najib along with the Air Staff focused on fighter sweep (a mission flown to destroy patrolling enemy fighters) as a possible option.

To prevent the mission from being seen as an escalatory step in the already charged atmosphere, PAF had to lure Indian fighters into its own territory, ie Azad Kashmir or the Northern Areas. That done, a number of issues had to be tackled. What if the enemy aircraft were hit in our territory but fell across, providing a pretext to India as a doubly aggrieved party? What if one of our own aircraft fell, no matter if the exchange was one-to-one (or better)? Finally, even if we were able to pull off a surprise, would it not be a one-off incident, with the IAF becoming wiser in quick time? The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which impinged unfavourably on the mission success probability. The conclusion was that a replication of the famous four-Vampire rout of 1st September 1965 by two Sabres might not be possible. The idea of a fighter sweep thus fizzled out as quickly as it came up for discussion.

While the PAF looked at some offensive options, it had a more pressing defensive issue at hand. The IAF’s minor border violations during recce missions were not of grave consequence in so far as no bombing had taken place in our territory; however, the fact that these missions helped the enemy refine its air and artillery targeting, was, to say the least, disconcerting. There were constant reports of our troops on the LOC disturbed to see, or hear, IAF fighters operating with apparent impunity. The GHQ took the matter up with the AHQ and it was resolved that Combat Air Patrols (CAPs) would be flown by the F-16s operating out of Minhas (Kamra) and Sargodha. This arrangement resulted in less on-station time but was safer than operating out of vulnerable Skardu, which had inadequate early warning in the mountainous terrain; its status as a turn-around facility was, however, considered acceptable for its location. A flight of F-7s was, nonetheless, deployed primarily for point defence of the important garrison town of Skardu as well as the air base.

F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

In sum, the PAF found it expedient not to worry too much about minor border violations and instead, conserve resources for the larger conflagration that was looming.

All the same, it gave the enemy no pretext for retaliation in the face of any provocation, though this latter stance irked some quarters in the Army that were desperate to ‘equal the match’.

Might it strike to some that PAF’s restraint in warding off a major conflagration may have been its paramount contribution to the Kargil conflict?
 
Simple strategic calculus - Pakistan can never defeat India conventionally given the weight of numbers. All short term tactical gains will ultimately be lost.

Only option is to launch a joint attack with China.

Similar logic applies in reverse when Indian offensive on Pakistani territories are concerned. India simply cannot hold on and assimilate Pakistani side of Kashmir.

This about sums it up. Reality is "given the weight of numbers". All said and done the stark reality is India has nearly 7:1 advantage in numbers. Yes there are cases when such odds can be defeated like Zulus versus British but those are rare cases when one side enjoys overwhelming advantage in technological superiority. In case of India and Pak both are about at the same level although one might even argue that India has the lead even there.

Therefore Pakistan can play all sort of tricks and might even gain tactical advantage but at a strategic level defeat is inevitable as larger numbers and resources bite. This is the way it has been since 1947. The gap between the two was least in late 1940s to early 1950s because Pakistan inheritated a larger share of the British Indian Army then it's size. However ever since it has been case of India's huge size just overshadowing Pakistan.

Look the reality that any imbecile can see is Pakistan is slightly smaller than Utter Pradesh. now would UP be able to fight against rest of India plus Pakistan far long? No, I don't think so. This is something our planners and budding wannabe Rommels like Musharaf need to learn.

Ps. Nobody can say the Germans did not make a helluva effort in both World Wars. However both times the German Army was defeated simply because of the overwhelming numbers it faced. The fact they managed to last 5 years on both occasions speaks about German bravery and conviction. But defeat came each time.
 
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Sqn Ldr Rajiv Pundir, Flt Sgt P V N R Prasad, Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja and others. !!
Pakistani Casualties in Air Crahes in Kargil War

7117023 Nk Nasir Ahmed Malik EME Hel Crash HQ ARMY AVN COMD 1999/06/10 SKARDU HELE CRASHED Jhelum
67
2818384 Lnk Abdul Karim AK Heli Crash 14 DIV 1999/06/10 GEN AREA DEASOI PLAIN Due to Hel Crash Mzd
68
PA 35005 CAPT Saeed Ahmed Khan Sind AIR CRASH T BT 1999/06/10 OPS AREA FCNA DIED DUE TO HELI CRASH Gujranwala
69
PJO 62679 Sub Nazir Hussain AK Heli Crash 14 DIV 1999/06/10 Kargil Due to Hel Crash Islamabad
70
PA 19410 MAJ Muhammad Hanif Punjab AIR CRASH 1999/06/10 NEAR DEOSAI PLAINS SHARDU AREA DEID DUE TO HEL CRASH Sargodha
71
PA 29332 CAPT Muhammad Uzair AD AIR CRASH S BT 1999/06/10 Diosai Plains DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH Mir Pur (AK)
72
PA 29553 CAPT Jamal Akbar AK AIR CRASH T BT 1999/06/10 DEOSAI PLAIN (FCNA) DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH

PA 16260 BRIG Nusrat Khan Sial Punjab AIR CRASH TJ,S BT 1999/06/11 BDA DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH
PakArmyKargil1999
 
Big deal, your mighty air force was conducting missions on your side of LOC
Yes but bombing your military who were in desperate need of Air support which never came.

you needed assistance from the Israelis

Yes we bought weapons from them with money not free,Pak had donated weapons,air crafts even tanks from muslim world in 1971 so ............
Sqn Ldr Rajiv Pundir, Flt Sgt P V N R Prasad, Sqn Ldr Ajay Ahuja and others. !!
How many died in Atlanteque ?Sau sunar ki ek Lohar Ki.
 
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Pakistani Casualties in Air Crahes in Kargil War

7117023 Nk Nasir Ahmed Malik EME Hel Crash HQ ARMY AVN COMD 1999/06/10 SKARDU HELE CRASHED Jhelum
67
2818384 Lnk Abdul Karim AK Heli Crash 14 DIV 1999/06/10 GEN AREA DEASOI PLAIN Due to Hel Crash Mzd
68
PA 35005 CAPT Saeed Ahmed Khan Sind AIR CRASH T BT 1999/06/10 OPS AREA FCNA DIED DUE TO HELI CRASH Gujranwala
69
PJO 62679 Sub Nazir Hussain AK Heli Crash 14 DIV 1999/06/10 Kargil Due to Hel Crash Islamabad
70
PA 19410 MAJ Muhammad Hanif Punjab AIR CRASH 1999/06/10 NEAR DEOSAI PLAINS SHARDU AREA DEID DUE TO HEL CRASH Sargodha
71
PA 29332 CAPT Muhammad Uzair AD AIR CRASH S BT 1999/06/10 Diosai Plains DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH Mir Pur (AK)
72
PA 29553 CAPT Jamal Akbar AK AIR CRASH T BT 1999/06/10 DEOSAI PLAIN (FCNA) DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH

PA 16260 BRIG Nusrat Khan Sial Punjab AIR CRASH TJ,S BT 1999/06/11 BDA DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH
PakArmyKargil1999

Sometimes I really wish that Mig 29 pilot who had LOCKED on to the F 16
should have fired ; only then we would have STOPPED discussing IAF vs PAF in Kargil
 
@Windjammer

IAF did intruded Pak air space and bobmed pak army positions befroe cease fire.


The fact is PAF had nothing comparable to challenge Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 and later MKI,these were BVR armed from day one.

These were all Mirage Airstrikes.

world-food-17-thumb-990x696.jpg


20080824_chakoti_LoC.jpg


20020829_gultari_LoC.jpg


20030809_drass_loc.jpg
 
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Troops of 13 JAK Rifles after their capture of Point 4875(Tiger Hill). The Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Colonel Y K Joshi can be seen in the foreground. Picture Courtesy: Sainik Samachar
0641.jpg
 
After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether

Reading that I would love to personally slap Musharaf. I was going to say "fist him" but that's only reserved for real men.
 
0686.jpg



Officers & Jawans of the 9 Para SF @ Kargil.

0684.jpg

us
Route to Khalubar Just Imagine How Hard & Dangerous Range is

0688.jpg


Clear-cut evidence of Pakistan's involvement in the conflict, as a Jawan holds a 7.62mm round, with the inscription POF (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) embossed on the back.
0244.jpg
 
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Pakistani Casualties in Air Crahes in Kargil War

7117023 Nk Nasir Ahmed Malik EME Hel Crash HQ ARMY AVN COMD 1999/06/10 SKARDU HELE CRASHED Jhelum
67
2818384 Lnk Abdul Karim AK Heli Crash 14 DIV 1999/06/10 GEN AREA DEASOI PLAIN Due to Hel Crash Mzd
68
PA 35005 CAPT Saeed Ahmed Khan Sind AIR CRASH T BT 1999/06/10 OPS AREA FCNA DIED DUE TO HELI CRASH Gujranwala
69
PJO 62679 Sub Nazir Hussain AK Heli Crash 14 DIV 1999/06/10 Kargil Due to Hel Crash Islamabad
70
PA 19410 MAJ Muhammad Hanif Punjab AIR CRASH 1999/06/10 NEAR DEOSAI PLAINS SHARDU AREA DEID DUE TO HEL CRASH Sargodha
71
PA 29332 CAPT Muhammad Uzair AD AIR CRASH S BT 1999/06/10 Diosai Plains DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH Mir Pur (AK)
72
PA 29553 CAPT Jamal Akbar AK AIR CRASH T BT 1999/06/10 DEOSAI PLAIN (FCNA) DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH

PA 16260 BRIG Nusrat Khan Sial Punjab AIR CRASH TJ,S BT 1999/06/11 BDA DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH
PakArmyKargil1999
So you are taking pride in every crash that took place in Pakistan, would you like me to give you a break down of IAF and IA crashes and casualties during the same period, remember it's your air force with over a thousand crashes distinction, however a picture equals a thousand words, feast your eyes on this IA Chopper sitting pretty in Gilgit.

2581038551_d7f3c61a84.jpg
 
So you are taking pride in every crash that took place in Pakistan, would you like me to give you a break down of IAF and IA crashes and casualties during the same period, remember it's your air force with over a thousand crashes distinction, however a picture equals a thousand words, feast your eyes on this IA hopper sitting pretty in Gilgit.
Diverting Question These are Casualties of Kargil War OP official Sources Released by your Establishment Posted By @DESERT FIGHTER

Check the Source Below Total Casualties According to Ranks

Brig 1
3

Major 9
4
Officers 32 Capt 20
5
JCOs 16 Lt 2
6
OR 424 Sub 4
7
TOTAL 472 NbSub 12
8
Misc 424

Casualties According to PA Regiments

Row LabelsCount of Arm/Service
4
AC1
5
AD 1
6
AK 47
7
Arty 19
8
ASC 7
9
Baloch 28
10
EME 7
11
Engrs 16
12
FF 44
13
NLI 250
14
Punjab 12
15
Sind 35
16
SSG 1
17
STC 4
18
(blank)
19
Grand Total472


PakArmyKargil1999
 
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Yes but bombing your military who were in desperate need of Air support which never came.
After losing three aircraft in first few days, your air force played safe by bombing from a safe altitude dropping bombs in a wide area away from any targets, by the time you ended up in Israeli lap, most of personal had been withdrawn from the heights.

Yes we bought weapons from them with money not free,Pak had donated weapons,air crafts even tanks from muslim world in 1971 so ............
So now you are running back to 1971, typical Indian escape route....go and find out how else both the US and Israelis bailed you out.
How many died in Atlanteque ?Sau sunar ki ek Lohar Ki.
Really, do you forget how the so called Lohars ended up short of coffins .....get the drift.
 
So you are taking pride in every crash that took place in Pakistan, would you like me to give you a break down of IAF and IA crashes and casualties during the same period, remember it's your air force with over a thousand crashes distinction, however a picture equals a thousand words, feast your eyes on this IA Chopper sitting pretty in Gilgit.

2581038551_d7f3c61a84.jpg

You know Windy ; a senior member like you should NOT indulge in such
Tu Tu main main

The PAF's ROLE in the Kargil conflict can be best described as follows

MiGs over Kargil: How the Fulcrum buzzed the Falcons | Russia & India Report

Lambeth quotes Air Marshal (retired) Vinod Patney, the then head of Western Air Command: “I think my insistence to mount CAPs across the (command’s entire area of responsibility) at different heights and times to give the message that I was ready and angling for an enlarged conflict helped.

It was akin to throwing a glove, but it was not picked up.”


IAF threw a glove at PAF ; challenging them; but PAF refused to Pick it up

PAF refused the challenge thrown at it
 
So you are taking pride in every crash that took place in Pakistan, would you like me to give you a break down of IAF and IA crashes and casualties during the same period, remember it's your air force with over a thousand crashes distinction, however a picture equals a thousand words, feast your eyes on this IA Chopper sitting pretty in Gilgit.

2581038551_d7f3c61a84.jpg

All that matters non. Just point scoring. Pakistan should not have anything to be shamed about. Pak soldiers fought against incredible odds and held at bay a enemy vastly in greater numbers. To borrow from Churchill I don't think "so few fought so many and held them at bay for so long".

I would not appreciate if next time I am on PIA flight to Pakistan and the captain announces "sorry we are low on spare fuel so we are going to have to discontinue the flight". I would ask that captain why he did he not check his fuel before he took off and if he did not have enough fuel what sort madness was it that conducted him to take off?

We need those who okayed this Kargil plan to be held accountable. Some searching questions need addressing so this madness is never repeated again.

After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether
 
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