Kargil Operations the PAF perspective

[Stephen Cohen]

Change your lines and tune before @Oscar gives you another clipping around the ear,
The fact you are in so much bother proves how facing the reality is troubling you.
You people are just victims of your own media that feeds you BS on daily basis.
Here's some more stark realities for your absent mind, it was your PM who first wrote to Bill Clinton requesting help to end the war.

Internationalising Kashmir

The Vajpayee Government, however, has not confined itself to diplomatic efforts to mobilise international public opinion. It has gone considerably further in efforts to enlist the help of the United States to end the present conflict. The Vajpayee Government has been hailing the U.S. position as a vindication of its stand on the Kargil issue. Prime Minister Vajpayee wrote a letter to President Bill Clinton which was handed over to the U.S. National Security Adviser, Sandy Berger, in Geneva on June 16. The contents of the letter have not been published; it is reported that India requested the U.S., prior to the G-8 summit in Cologne, to stop Pakistan from getting loans from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and other multilateral agencies. The Government and BJP spokesmen have appealed to the U.S. to follow up its stand that the LoC should not be violated, with concrete steps to make Pakistan withdraw its forces from the infiltrated areas. These moves by the Vajpayee Government have the potential to help internationalise the Kashmir issue.

Keep Lying a BILLION times ;

All your Delusions and all your lies cannot change facts

It was NAWAZ sharif who went to meet Clinton NOT Vajpayee

Clinton was instead REQUESTING India NOT to enlarge the Conflict
though USA was your ALLY

So Basically you lost face in the AIR ; on the GROUND and in front of International Media

Clinton promised to Pakistan that he will HELP in resolving Kashmir to Pakistan's SATISFACTION

what happened to that Promise

SInce that day We have been waiting for Seventeen Years for US to intervene

And the JOKE is on YOU

Even after 9 /11 and ALL the HELP that you gave to USA

USA did not dare to interfere in Kashmir ;and it never will

 

[Windjammer]

Keep Lying a BILLION times ;

All your Delusions and all your lies cannot change facts

It was NAWAZ sharif who went to meet Clinton NOT Vajpayee

Clinton was instead REQUESTING India NOT to enlarge the Conflict
though USA was your ALLY

So Basically you lost face in the AIR ; on the GROUND and in front of International Media

Clinton promised to Pakistan that he will HELP in resolving Kashmir to Pakistan's SATISFACTION

what happened to that Promise

SInce that day We have been waiting for Seventeen Years for US to intervene

And the JOKE is on YOU

Even after 9 /11 and ALL the HELP that you gave to USA

USA did not dare to interfere in Kashmir ;and it never will

You can rant all you want, first i busted the tall claims of Foxbat breaking the sound barrier and now this, the so called Fulcrum buzzing the Falcons, in fact the scenario was Eagles dominating the Vultures .

 

[Stephen Cohen]

You can rant all you want, first i busted the tall claims of Foxbat breaking the sound barrier and now this, the so called Fulcrum buzzing the Falcons, in fact the scenario was Eagles dominating the Vultures .

This is the THIRD in your SERIES of LIES

Jaguar ; Foxbat and Now this

KEEP GOING ; but as they say

Hamey maloom hai Jannat ki hakikat lekin
Dil Behlane ko Ghalib YEH KHAYAL ACCHA HAI

 

[jetray]

Yea, IAF challenged from their own air space,
Since Pakistani forces had occupied Indian bunkers on Kargil hills, shot down two fighter jets and a helicopter, what stopped IAF from carrying out cross border strikes.... nothing but lies and nonsense to keep up the tail.... and if Kargil wasn't enough proof then 2002 decisevly proved that IAF had no appetite for combat.

Why bother about who challenged from where does it matter, why not ask what was the end result?

Appetite ? did PAF have a stomach to cross the border and save its army. So why do you expect IAF to do the same? If PAF had crossed the IB and IAF did not respond ,well you can win the argument.

“I think my insistence to mount CAPs across the (command’s entire area of responsibility) at different heights and times to give the message that I was ready and angling for an enlarged conflict helped."

Implies you cross the IB , we will do the same.

PAF can improve its image by sending pigeons to occupy the peaks and claim victory over IAF.

 

[Assault Rifle]

@Windjammer

Kaiser Tufail who was Group Cpt and Directrcof Ops in PAF in 99 himself admitted that only one fighter jet i.e. MiG-21 was shot down whereas the MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble thus exposing Pakistan lies.

a MiG-21 and a Mi-17 to Pak Army surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), while a MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble caused by gun gas ingestion during high altitude strafing. (Incidentally, the pilot of the MiG-27 Flt Lt Nachiketa, who ejected and was apprehended, had a tête-à-tête with this author during an interesting ‘interrogation’ session.)

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.in/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html?m=1

 

[Windjammer]

Why bother about who challenged from where does it matter, why not ask what was the end result?

Appetite ? did PAF have a stomach to cross the border and save its army. So why do you expect IAF to do the same? If PAF had crossed the IB and IAF did not respond ,well you can win the argument.

“I think my insistence to mount CAPs across the (command’s entire area of responsibility) at different heights and times to give the message that I was ready and angling for an enlarged conflict helped."

Implies you cross the IB , we will do the same.

PAF can improve its image by sending pigeons to occupy the peaks and claim victory over IAF.

As soon as one air force had crossed the LOC, it would mean a declaration of an open war.
The IAF carried out operations within it's own side, as soon as a couple of it's aircraft crossed the border, they paid the price.
The IAF carried out CAPs on it's side as did PAF on it's side and although there were a few occasions PAF gained locks on Indian aircraft but unlike IAF it never made a song and dance about it.
As for the Pigeons, I believe even that made headlines in India....not to mention the Camel and the Baloon.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

As soon as one air force had crossed the LOC, it would mean a declaration of an open war.
The IAF carried out operations within it's own side, as soon as a couple of it's aircraft crossed the border, they paid the price.
The IAF carried out CAPs on it's side as did PAF on it's side and although there were a few occasions PAF gained locks on Indian aircraft but unlike IAF it never made a song and dance about it.
As for the Pigeons, I believe even that made headlines in India....not to mention the Camel and the Baloon.

IAF did cross the LOC for Recce Missions

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.in/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html

While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries).

Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently cocked-a-snoot at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.

 

[Tamilnadu]

We have a single pic to cheer about and that is of a aircraft which we shot down through Anza. Nothing else other than that. God forbid if we have another war with India we will be left with this pic only and some people will keep on opening threads with same picture on it.

People like you should be more in numbers than the fanboys for a better furture of Pakistan,i am not saying this because you pissed off few Pakistanies here.i said it because it will be good for the subcontinent ,even if we fight there will be some dignity irrespective of the result unlike mud slinging you see here or we can be good friends who knows.
But sadly you will be called false flagger,traitor and what not....

Internationalising Kashmir
internationalise the Kashmir issue.

Yes it did Internationalise kashmir,earlier even if there was a shot fired the whole world would be in the capitals of both the countries and statements like ,need to resolve peacefully or if both are ok we can mediate like statements and now firing continues for a month and no one gvs a pluck.Pakistan lost what little support it had on kashmir.

 

[Windjammer]

We have a single pic to cheer about and that is of a aircraft which we shot down through Anza. Nothing else other than that. God forbid if we have another war with India we will be left with this pic only and some people will keep on opening threads with same picture on it.

People like you should be more in numbers than the fanboys for a better furture of Pakistan,i am not saying this because you pissed off few Pakistanies here.i said it because it will be good for the subcontinent ,even if we fight there will be some dignity irrespective of the result unlike mud slinging you see here or we can be good friends who knows.
But sadly you will be called false flagger,traitor and what not....
.

Yup, the so called new members very first post on the topic, not to mention aping the username and also being acknowledged by others.....we have brilliant minds at work.
BTW, we do have other pictures but we are only discussing the aerial aspect of the conflict here.

Pak artillery strikes Indian Army barracks. 4 June 1999

 

[jetray]

As soon as one air force had crossed the LOC, it would mean a declaration of an open war.

Well as I said there was no necessity for IAF to cross the border. But it was requisite for PAF to save its men.

The IAF carried out operations within it's own side, as soon as a couple of it's aircraft crossed the border, they paid the price.

If the Intent was indeed to cross the borders and take the battle to other side then it would be front line fighter like sukhoi not moth balls called mig. Instead of cross ,it was straying across the border that pakistan took advantage of.


"The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s had been repeatedly buzzed by India’s MiG-29s, and the PAF pilots had simply refused to offer combat." --> you can disagree with this.
But not with this end result.
"This had allowed the Indian Army and the IAF’s ground attack jets to blast away with impunity."

Though there are some bravados using some vague assumptions in the article but would agree with final analysis.

"Analyses by Pakistani experts revealed that when the rubber met the road, PAF simply refused to play any part in support of the Pakistan Army, angering the latter,” says the report.

Would they have taken on IAF in 2002 ? well going by past record 50% probability of nope for PAF and 100% for IAF.

IAF can claim it is psyched out PAF, china can claim it beat back US bcos winners take all and get to write the history.

 

[Windjammer]

Well as I said there was no necessity for IAF to cross the border. But it was requisite for PAF to save its men.

If the Intent was indeed to cross the borders and take the battle to other side then it would be front line fighter like sukhoi not moth balls called mig. Instead of cross ,it was straying across the border that pakistan took advantage of.


"The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s had been repeatedly buzzed by India’s MiG-29s, and the PAF pilots had simply refused to offer combat." --> you can disagree with this.
But not with this end result.
"This had allowed the Indian Army and the IAF’s ground attack jets to blast away with impunity."

Though there are some bravados using some vague assumptions in the article but would agree with final analysis.

"Analyses by Pakistani experts revealed that when the rubber met the road, PAF simply refused to play any part in support of the Pakistan Army, angering the latter,” says the report.

Would they have taken on IAF in 2002 ? well going by past record 50% probability of nope for PAF and 100% for IAF.

IAF can claim it is psyched out PAF, china can claim it beat back US bcos winners take all and get to write the history.

From the highlighted part, it's obvious you know very little about your own IAF, what to say about comments on PAF.
Let me remind you that the SU-30 entered service with IAF around 2002, where as the Kargil conflict took place in 1999.
After the MiG-21/27 failed in their missions, the IAF pressed into service, the Mirage-2000 and MiG-29s.

 

[Allen Iverson]

even now some Indians with their head on shoulders are admitting that India never won Kargil on it's own accord rather Pakistan and particularly Nawaz Shariff buckled under US pressure and forced to withdraw.

You can see such a point made by our Lt Gen who served during Kargil in a video in youtube. If you are referring to that then in the same video ha d given a clarification that India Didn't win the war because we had lost more than 2000 Valuable lives in warding off a limited skirmish.. His context was that our preparedness was poor and we lost way too many human lives than it was supposed to be.. There is no win or lose in kargil.. Pakistan's attempt was foiled.. That's it.. I wont say it is a Win.. Win could've been if India ended up actually freeing some part of kashmir which was earlier under Pakistan's control..
The rest of your article is all Bull Sh!t.. I can provide you hundreds of such accounts Written by our people who served the forward areas during Kargil with Far better language then what is used here.. India learnt many lessons after Kargil Conflict..
And for the non sense written in the article that India approached US to stop War, It was your Sartaj AZIZ rushing to delhi to ask Vajpayee govt for ceasefire, since your positions were being bombarded without any resupply lines open..
If you are veteran served during kargil ,then you won't embrace such nonsense, because that is not the truth..

From the highlighted part, it's obvious you know very little about your own IAF, what to say about comments on PAF.
Let me remind you that the SU-30 entered service with IAF around 2002, where as the Kargil conflict took place in 1999.
After the MiG-21/27 failed in their missions, the IAF pressed into service, the Mirage-2000 and MiG-29s.

There are technical reasons why our Migs failed, I will share it here.. But yes as you said, Sukhois didn't enter active roles before 2002.. That guy must have got a little excited..

As soon as one air force had crossed the LOC, it would mean a declaration of an open war.
The IAF carried out operations within it's own side, as soon as a couple of it's aircraft crossed the border, they paid the price.
The IAF carried out CAPs on it's side as did PAF on it's side and although there were a few occasions PAF gained locks on Indian aircraft but unlike IAF it never made a song and dance about it.
As for the Pigeons, I believe even that made headlines in India....not to mention the Camel and the Baloon.

So, you mean to say that, Mig 27 got shot down while crossing the border and Mirages bombarded Pakistan forces within its territory with laser guided bombs and got away with that?? Is that what you are trying to say??
as for the remark on song making, many times Aircrafts enter hostile airspaces accidentally and immediately they'll turn back, as soon as their fighter controller alerts them.. Even PAF aircrafts does that and they goes back.. It is for few seconds these violations happen, but during Kargil, the course of the F16 was headed straight to the bombing runs conducted by Our Mirages and Migs and the Mig29 was providing cover for them, which got a radar lock and headed to the interception course, as soon as the falcon pilot received a radar lock warning, he turned the course and went back... This happened during war time and should be reported..If the same was done PAF there must have been a whole cinma instead of a song orchestrated in multiple platforms..

 

[Windjammer]

You can see such a point made by our Lt Gen who served during Kargil in a video in youtube. If you are referring to that then in the same video ha d given a clarification that India Didn't win the war because we had lost more than 2000 Valuable lives in warding off a limited skirmish.. His context was that our preparedness was poor and we lost way too many human lives than it was supposed to be.. There is no win or lose in kargil.. Pakistan's attempt was foiled.. That's it.. I wont say it is a Win.. Win could've been if India ended up actually freeing some part of kashmir which was earlier under Pakistan's control..

Although i have seen the video of the mentioned officer but that doesn't hold much substance, since there are always people with personal vendetta or scores to settle, my argument is towards some articles written and published after the dust had settled.

The rest of your article is all Bull Sh!t.. I can provide you hundreds of such accounts Written by our people who served the forward areas during Kargil with Far better language then what is used here.. India learnt many lessons after Kargil Conflict..
And for the non sense written in the article that India approached US to stop War, It was your Sartaj AZIZ rushing to delhi to ask Vajpayee govt for ceasefire, since your positions were being bombarded without any resupply lines open..
If you are veteran served during kargil ,then you won't embrace such nonsense, because that is not the truth..

It seems BS to you since you guys only thrive on your side of the story and believe what your own media feeds you, let me ask you this, do you think no bodies of Indian soldiers were handed over by Pakistan, did you ever witness such but on the contrary we saw the circus created by your army and media hand in glove so sometimes it helps to read between the lines.

So, you mean to say that, Mig 27 got shot down while crossing the border and Mirages bombarded Pakistan forces within its territory with laser guided bombs and got away with that?? Is that what you are trying to say??

As i said neither side risked crossing border to avoid further extending hostilities, the few times IAF whether purposely or inadvertently crossed, it paid the price, all other missions were carried out within it's own borders.

as for the remark on song making, many times Aircrafts enter hostile airspaces accidentally and immediately they'll turn back, as soon as their fighter controller alerts them.. Even PAF aircrafts does that and they goes back.. It is for few seconds these violations happen, but during Kargil, the course of the F16 was headed straight to the bombing runs conducted by Our Mirages and Migs and the Mig29 was providing cover for them, which got a radar lock and headed to the interception course, as soon as the falcon pilot received a radar lock warning, he turned the course and went back... This happened during war time and should be reported..If the same was done PAF there must have been a whole cinma instead of a song orchestrated in multiple platforms..

Firstly why a strike force operating within it's own borders would need an escort and even if one was to believe this theory then the what value does the tall claim of gaining a lock but since the MiG-29 pilot attempted this exercise, the PAF pilot did what any air force pilot would..I.E break the lock which he successfully did and no he didn't turned back , he executed a deceiving manoeuvre both to break the lock and fool the enemy, suspecting this it was the MiG pilot who left the scene.

 

[Windjammer]

This is the THIRD in your SERIES of LIES

Jaguar ; Foxbat and Now this

KEEP GOING ; but as they say

Hamey maloom hai Jannat ki hakikat lekin
Dil Behlane ko Ghalib YEH KHAYAL ACCHA HAI

And what have you to counter my argument except the usual habit of throwing your dummy out of your pram.
Since you are always desperate to press the reply button, let me remind you the Jaguar thread was merely inquisitive hence i asked others if they had any more info on the incident but yes the Foxbat and this thread are certainly meant to burst the bubble you live in and as for the poetry effort...as the saying goes....

Adab ko ghass samaj kar sabi gadhey charney lagey
Urdu tu atey nai per sher o shayree karney lagey.

 

[Tipu7]

We are discussing such sort of things which are new for ears of many Indian fellows who are used to believe that in Kargil war PAF was scared of IAF particularly their BVR capable Mig29. They even cooked up stories that PAF pilots resigned from their jobs when they were ordered to face IAF Mig29.
Considering a typical psyche of Indian fan boy, who believe that EFT were shot down by Su30 with no losses, Bisons shot down Falcons, Flankers shot down Eagles with no losses it become a tough job to drag them from fantasy to reality.
They believe IAF has highest crash rate in World because they push both pilot & aircraft to its extreme, they believe news of every "short coming" in their arsenal is actually an excuse to secure more funds from Government. In such situation it's impossible for them to digest what their minds are not "built" to understand.
And you sure are best in putting hand in Hornet nest @Windjammer