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Kargil ghosts still stalk India’s military

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Zarvan

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26newskargil_194136.jpg


Air Marshal Birender Singh “Tony” Dhanoa walks to his desk in his fifth floor corner office in New Delhi’s Vayusena Bhavan – headquarters of the Indian Air Force – and withdraws from the drawer an outsized register: his “pilot’s flying log-book”

He turns the pages, neatly divided into columns and squares, filled with his own handwriting, points to one entry and says: “Yes, here it is. The first mission was on May 26.”

Sixteen years ago, in 1999, Dhanoa was the commanding officer of the 17 “Golden Arrows” Squadron of MiG 21 fighter aircraft that was among those that flew the largest number of sorties over the Kargil heights, taking pictures of enemy positions and dropping bombs on designated targets “even though we started off flying nearly blind,” he tells The Telegraph.

On May 26 that year, Dhanoa and then Flight Lieutenant R.S. Dhaliwal conducted the first recce over the main targets at Tiger Hill and Tololing. (Dhaliwal died later in an accident with the Suryakirans, the air force aerobatics team).

na1.jpg

A day later, on May 27, Dhanoa’s flight commander, Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja’s aircraft was shot down by a Stinger missile while it was trying to trace Flight Lieutenant K. Nachiketa (of the No. 9 squadron) whose MiG 27 had been shot down earlier. Ahuja radioed the emergency and ejected. Two days later, his body was handed over with gunshot injuries to his neck and head. The IAF believes he was killed despite having survived the ejection.

Tomorrow, when an NDA government marks Kargil Vijay Divas (Victory Day) – the NDA’s Atal Bihari Vajpayee was the Prime Minister in 1999 – Ahuja’s killing, and the disclosure by his commanding officer that the plane was not equipped correctly, revives the ghosts that still stalk India’s military preparedness. There are also questions on whether inter-service coordination is better now. As Dhanoa has confirmed, the army and the air force took a long time getting on the same page in Kargil.

“Ahuja might have survived,” says Dhanoa, “if his aircraft had CMDS (counter-measures dispensing system) that the DRDO and a public sector company was supposed to supply to us. The Stinger (surface-to-air) missile hit the fairing of his aircraft .”

The fairing on a plane is designed to make it more aerodynamic. The CMDS is deployed by an aircraft to ward off incoming heat-seeking missiles such as the Stinger.

Although celebrated by the government as a “victory”, the 50-day Kargil war is still a topic of much debate and questions surrounding its causes and results are still unanswered. Army court martials and civilian courts too are yet to dispose of cases – including that of the sacked commander of the Kargil Brigade – going back to the operations in the front.

There is general consensus that militants and regulars of the Pakistani army occupied heights from 9,000ft to 14,000ft along the Kargil front that used to be manned by Indian troops. The occupiers directed Pakistani artillery fire into India’s National Highway 1A that runs from Srinagar to Leh. The Indian Army’s “Operation Vijay” and the IAF’s “Operation Safed Sagar” was directed towards ejecting the occupiers from these positions. The objective was largely achieved with the diplomatic intervention of then US President Bill Clinton who summoned Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. A total of 527 Indian troopers were killed in trying to fight their way uphill against gunfire from the top.

As the commanding officer of the Golden Arrows, Dhanoa had a ringside and inside-the-fire view of the war. Since then, rising to his current office as the vice-chief of air staff, he has both the advantage of hindsight and the wherewithal to go through records.

“We practically started operational flying without any R & O (reconnaissance and observation). The army could not tell us where the enemy is or who the enemy was,” he recalls.

His squadron, from the Kili Bhisiana base in Bhatinda, was deployed to Srinagar on May 21, 1999. “I remember going to Matayen (a large army base) and to the base of Tiger Hill (a high feature that came to symbolise the main target for the Indian forces and after whose recapture the war all but concluded). I met this soldier from 8 Sikh (Light Infantry) who said ‘we’ve been sitting on Tiger Hill but we can’t see them and we can’t tell you anything’. When I talked to an officer flying a helo (chopper), he told me ‘we don’t know where to take you because we don’t know where they (the enemy) are'”.

This correspondent was at the base of Tiger Hill to report its recapture after an interview with the 18 Grenadiers commanding officer, Col Kushal Thakur, who was at Tiger Top. The interview was conducted over the army’s wireless system.# The 8 Sikh LI that Dhanoa encountered played a stellar role itself. It held on to a spur of Tiger Hill for 23 days against enemy fire till the 18 Grenadiers finally took Tiger Top.

Dhanoa and his officers were at Mushkoh Valley, at the base of Tiger Hill, to be taken for a recce flight in an army helicopter. But they were told that that would not be possible. The Golden Arrows squadron itself specialised in photo-recce flights apart from bombing targets on the ground.

In the days that followed, it was after flights by the Golden Arrows confirmed the presence of snow-huts and Pakistani regulars in the heights that the Indian government concluded that the Pakistan army was itself at work, a development later confirmed by the then chief (and later President) Pervez Musharraf.

But till then, the Golden Arrows were practically “flying blind”. On May 21, when Dhanoa and his boys landed in Srinagar, they found tarpaulin being draped over a plane inside a hangar. It was a Canberra surveillance plane. (The aircraft have since been phased out). The Canberra was shot from the ground earlier that morning but survived the return.

“I instructed the boys that in an emergency, such as the engine getting hit, they should attempt to glide back to the centre of the (Indus River) valley on the Indian side and then eject. Ahuja probably erred in turning right instead of turning left,” Dhanoa recalls. That is why he fell in Pakistan-held territory.

The killing of Ahuja spurred on the squadron with “Tony” and “Dhali” leading missions. On June 3, according to Tony’s logbook, they dropped two 250kg bombs on Tiger Hill. On July 8, Dhanoa flew with then Air Chief Marshal A.Y. Tipnis (now retired) on a “Battle Damage Assessment” (BDA) mission accompanying other aircraft that dropped bombs. He did not fire himself. ” Chief ke saath udke thodi na bomb karenge,” he explains. (You don’t fire when you are flying with the chief). They flew in a two-seater trainer MiG 21. (The MiG 21 otherwise takes just one pilot in the cockpit).

Dhanoa says the political directive to not cross the LoC did restrain the air force in its operations.

“If you have to attack a tree, you must go after the stem, if you can’t go for the root,” he explains. “We were told to go after the branches, that too only from one side.”

The vice-chief said that the absence of the light combat aircraft (since christened the Tejas) told heavily on the Indian Air Force’s capabilities. “The LCA was supposed to come in by 1993,” he pointed out.

The LCA is not yet declared fully operational. Sixteen years since the last war, the wait, and the lag, waxes tardy.

Posted in India
Kargil ghosts still stalk India’s military | idrw.org
@nair @Horus @Oscar @Jango @Jungibaaz @waz @Irfan Baloch @ajpirzada @balixd @Icarus @Areesh @DESERT FIGHTER @Slav Defence @GURU DUTT @OrionHunter @ares @doppelganger @Chanakya's_Chant @Hindustani78 @syedali @TankMan @Arsalan @Aether @Bratva @Abingdonboy
 
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So a Canberra was also hit ....:coffee:
 
26newskargil_194136.jpg


Air Marshal Birender Singh “Tony” Dhanoa walks to his desk in his fifth floor corner office in New Delhi’s Vayusena Bhavan – headquarters of the Indian Air Force – and withdraws from the drawer an outsized register: his “pilot’s flying log-book”

He turns the pages, neatly divided into columns and squares, filled with his own handwriting, points to one entry and says: “Yes, here it is. The first mission was on May 26.”

Sixteen years ago, in 1999, Dhanoa was the commanding officer of the 17 “Golden Arrows” Squadron of MiG 21 fighter aircraft that was among those that flew the largest number of sorties over the Kargil heights, taking pictures of enemy positions and dropping bombs on designated targets “even though we started off flying nearly blind,” he tells The Telegraph.

On May 26 that year, Dhanoa and then Flight Lieutenant R.S. Dhaliwal conducted the first recce over the main targets at Tiger Hill and Tololing. (Dhaliwal died later in an accident with the Suryakirans, the air force aerobatics team).

na1.jpg

A day later, on May 27, Dhanoa’s flight commander, Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja’s aircraft was shot down by a Stinger missile while it was trying to trace Flight Lieutenant K. Nachiketa (of the No. 9 squadron) whose MiG 27 had been shot down earlier. Ahuja radioed the emergency and ejected. Two days later, his body was handed over with gunshot injuries to his neck and head. The IAF believes he was killed despite having survived the ejection.

Tomorrow, when an NDA government marks Kargil Vijay Divas (Victory Day) – the NDA’s Atal Bihari Vajpayee was the Prime Minister in 1999 – Ahuja’s killing, and the disclosure by his commanding officer that the plane was not equipped correctly, revives the ghosts that still stalk India’s military preparedness. There are also questions on whether inter-service coordination is better now. As Dhanoa has confirmed, the army and the air force took a long time getting on the same page in Kargil.

“Ahuja might have survived,” says Dhanoa, “if his aircraft had CMDS (counter-measures dispensing system) that the DRDO and a public sector company was supposed to supply to us. The Stinger (surface-to-air) missile hit the fairing of his aircraft .”

The fairing on a plane is designed to make it more aerodynamic. The CMDS is deployed by an aircraft to ward off incoming heat-seeking missiles such as the Stinger.

Although celebrated by the government as a “victory”, the 50-day Kargil war is still a topic of much debate and questions surrounding its causes and results are still unanswered. Army court martials and civilian courts too are yet to dispose of cases – including that of the sacked commander of the Kargil Brigade – going back to the operations in the front.

There is general consensus that militants and regulars of the Pakistani army occupied heights from 9,000ft to 14,000ft along the Kargil front that used to be manned by Indian troops. The occupiers directed Pakistani artillery fire into India’s National Highway 1A that runs from Srinagar to Leh. The Indian Army’s “Operation Vijay” and the IAF’s “Operation Safed Sagar” was directed towards ejecting the occupiers from these positions. The objective was largely achieved with the diplomatic intervention of then US President Bill Clinton who summoned Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. A total of 527 Indian troopers were killed in trying to fight their way uphill against gunfire from the top.

As the commanding officer of the Golden Arrows, Dhanoa had a ringside and inside-the-fire view of the war. Since then, rising to his current office as the vice-chief of air staff, he has both the advantage of hindsight and the wherewithal to go through records.

“We practically started operational flying without any R & O (reconnaissance and observation). The army could not tell us where the enemy is or who the enemy was,” he recalls.

His squadron, from the Kili Bhisiana base in Bhatinda, was deployed to Srinagar on May 21, 1999. “I remember going to Matayen (a large army base) and to the base of Tiger Hill (a high feature that came to symbolise the main target for the Indian forces and after whose recapture the war all but concluded). I met this soldier from 8 Sikh (Light Infantry) who said ‘we’ve been sitting on Tiger Hill but we can’t see them and we can’t tell you anything’. When I talked to an officer flying a helo (chopper), he told me ‘we don’t know where to take you because we don’t know where they (the enemy) are'”.

This correspondent was at the base of Tiger Hill to report its recapture after an interview with the 18 Grenadiers commanding officer, Col Kushal Thakur, who was at Tiger Top. The interview was conducted over the army’s wireless system.# The 8 Sikh LI that Dhanoa encountered played a stellar role itself. It held on to a spur of Tiger Hill for 23 days against enemy fire till the 18 Grenadiers finally took Tiger Top.

Dhanoa and his officers were at Mushkoh Valley, at the base of Tiger Hill, to be taken for a recce flight in an army helicopter. But they were told that that would not be possible. The Golden Arrows squadron itself specialised in photo-recce flights apart from bombing targets on the ground.

In the days that followed, it was after flights by the Golden Arrows confirmed the presence of snow-huts and Pakistani regulars in the heights that the Indian government concluded that the Pakistan army was itself at work, a development later confirmed by the then chief (and later President) Pervez Musharraf.

But till then, the Golden Arrows were practically “flying blind”. On May 21, when Dhanoa and his boys landed in Srinagar, they found tarpaulin being draped over a plane inside a hangar. It was a Canberra surveillance plane. (The aircraft have since been phased out). The Canberra was shot from the ground earlier that morning but survived the return.

“I instructed the boys that in an emergency, such as the engine getting hit, they should attempt to glide back to the centre of the (Indus River) valley on the Indian side and then eject. Ahuja probably erred in turning right instead of turning left,” Dhanoa recalls. That is why he fell in Pakistan-held territory.

The killing of Ahuja spurred on the squadron with “Tony” and “Dhali” leading missions. On June 3, according to Tony’s logbook, they dropped two 250kg bombs on Tiger Hill. On July 8, Dhanoa flew with then Air Chief Marshal A.Y. Tipnis (now retired) on a “Battle Damage Assessment” (BDA) mission accompanying other aircraft that dropped bombs. He did not fire himself. ” Chief ke saath udke thodi na bomb karenge,” he explains. (You don’t fire when you are flying with the chief). They flew in a two-seater trainer MiG 21. (The MiG 21 otherwise takes just one pilot in the cockpit).

Dhanoa says the political directive to not cross the LoC did restrain the air force in its operations.

“If you have to attack a tree, you must go after the stem, if you can’t go for the root,” he explains. “We were told to go after the branches, that too only from one side.”

The vice-chief said that the absence of the light combat aircraft (since christened the Tejas) told heavily on the Indian Air Force’s capabilities. “The LCA was supposed to come in by 1993,” he pointed out.

The LCA is not yet declared fully operational. Sixteen years since the last war, the wait, and the lag, waxes tardy.

Posted in India
Kargil ghosts still stalk India’s military | idrw.org
@nair @Horus @Oscar @Jango @Jungibaaz @waz @Irfan Baloch @ajpirzada @balixd @Icarus @Areesh @DESERT FIGHTER @Slav Defence @GURU DUTT @OrionHunter @ares @doppelganger @Chanakya's_Chant @Hindustani78 @syedali @TankMan @Arsalan @Aether @Bratva @Abingdonboy
janab unlike your nation we dont brush owr faults under the carpet and dont take/learn from owr past mistakes rather we keep those memories alive and make an example from them as to what should be owr future strategi but i guess u left that part .... good luck :coffee:
 
only positive outcome of kargil is India cemented her position in kashmir.
In all the wars we faught, kashmir was the hardest to defend, and we always had to open new front in plains of punjab/sindh. This time we did not have to.
I shudder to think what would have happened if we did not capture tiger hill. There was no other option than going for lahore.
 
You say you won the war really ?
Lol 4 peaks these are your peaks along with 70 peaks including Tiger Hill which we annexed in 1971 and forced you to sign Simla Agreement.

Come back when you took all those peaks which we annexed in 1971 not to mention Siachin in 1984 :lol:


By Brig.Javed Hussain former SSG

In October 1947, following the announcement of Kashmir’s accession to India, the Gilgit Scouts, a predominantly Muslim force raised by the British for internal security, revolted against the Dogras, and in a series of daring actions in1948 captured Kargil, Drass, Zoji La Pass and Skardu. However, in November 1948, Zoji La Pass and Kargil were recaptured by the Indians while the Kargil heights remained with the Gilgit Scouts.

During the Rann of Kutch conflict, these heights were captured by the Indians for the first time on May 17, 1965, for use as a bargaining counter in the negotiations. As a result of the agreement reached, the heights were returned to Pakistan in June 1965. In the first week of August 1965, Operation Gibraltar was launched. One of the areas used by the infiltrating force was the Kargil heights. To block these routes, the Indians captured the heights for the second time in the third week of August 1965. But after the signing of the Tashkent Agreement, the heights were once again returned to Pakistan.

On the outbreak of war on the western front on December 3, 1971, the Indians captured the heights for the third time on December 9, 1971. This time, however, they retained the heights in line with the Shimla Agreement under which the violable Cease Fire Line (CFL), created in December 1948 on cessation of hostilities in Kashmir, was converted into an inviolable Line of Control (LoC), on the basis of actual possession of territory at the time of the ceasefire in December 1971. :lol: . When the Indians captured the heights on three different occasions, the Pakistani force that was overwhelmed, consisted mostly of lightly armed, inadequately equipped Karakoram and Gilgit Scouts, both paramilitary outfits.

what about this article :azn: :haha:
 
Yeah.... IA learnt lessons from its mistake... now IA is much more vigilant... and army and govt resolution to defend borders are also more strong...
 
Yeah.... IA learnt lessons from its mistake... now IA is much more vigilant... and army and govt resolution to defend borders are also more strong...
+ now unlike past their are no strings attached and army has the license to kill all those who try to infiltrate indian terriotorry and they can use all the force at their disposal no questions asked :sniper: :butcher:
 
More than Kargil, i think what might haunt India is this event that took place some months prior to kargil.
BL09NAWAZ_1883840f.jpg

Vajpayee Sahab felt really betrayed after kargil happened, given he had taken a stand much against party line of not engaging with Pakistan. He, while active in Politics, was perhaps the last Statesman from India and when in summer of 99, conflict in kargil happened, he lost a vital position to hardliners.
We can debate the issue any number of times and commentators from Pakistan can put up all sorts of explanation as to who really was responsible for all, the fact that Indian armed forces had to, at cost of their men, engage in a war, that could've been avoided, led to a great irreparable loss of trust.
The biggest casualty was the lost trust and opportunity that could've been built around Vajpayee Nawaz initiative, which could've led to a lasting peace in sub-continent.
That IMHO will remain the biggest shame and haunting of kargil.
 
Indian army ran out of coffins for their fallen soldiers so naturally they'll forever be haunted by Kargil
 
More than Kargil, i think what might haunt India is this event that took place some months prior to kargil.
View attachment 240912
Vajpayee Sahab felt really betrayed after kargil happened, given he had taken a stand much against party line of not engaging with Pakistan. He, while active in Politics, was perhaps the last Statesman from India and when in summer of 99, conflict in kargil happened, he lost a vital position to hardliners.
We can debate the issue any number of times and commentators from Pakistan can put up all sorts of explanation as to who really was responsible for all, the fact that Indian armed forces had to, at cost of their men, engage in a war, that could've been avoided, led to a great irreparable loss of trust.
The biggest casualty was the lost trust and opportunity that could've been built around Vajpayee Nawaz initiative, which could've led to a lasting peace in sub-continent.
That IMHO will remain the biggest shame and haunting of kargil.
exactly the loss of trust between india and pakistan is the biggest casuality or Kargil war and it was not just india who lost trust for pakistan but USA & even the kashmiri sepratists and lower ranks of their armed forces for their hierarchy

but pakistanies as usual are beating their chests for their misplaced and misguided false bravado totally ignoring the facts and ground realities and a race like that who never aknowledges is past mistakes and takes lessons from it so they are not reopated in future can never ever attain trust or last peace and will continue to be held hostage to past and would never be able to make a better future for their children...... i dont have the link but their was a clip of javed choudhary talking about late singaporean PM who changed the destiny of future singaporeans by his hard work and what he thinks of subcontinent muslims and subcontinent hindus
 
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