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Kargil and PAF's role - by a PAF officer.

Just for information

The ACAS (Ops) was Air Cdre Abid Rao, who had recently completed command of PAF Base, Mianwali. He had earlier done his War Course from the French War College.



Abid is the elder brother of our COAS

Kaiser Kaiser Kaiser what can I say the Book he wrote Great Battles of PAF most of the accounts were written without accuracy, Well I shouldn't say much he gave me 5 pages of fame even in that he was wrong how I attacked the Hunter and the Gnat.:lol:
 
PakDef Forums - View Single Post - Musharraf Supporters

Kaiser Tufail should have known this. What do you expect the Indians to do? Remain silent for the sake of Pakistan's national security interests? They will milk it to the last drop and it has made headline news in India. No matter how patriotic my intention, I will not write an article that will have less advantages and greater disadvantages for Pakistan. I believe that it was an error of judgment on Kaiser Tufail's part. This was not the right time to write it.

What Kaiser Tufail disclosed now, I have known since 1999 and I kept my mouth shut in the national interest. I could have quoted a very high-ranking and credible PAF source who sat in my drawing room and fumed at Musharraf's decision not to involve the PAF in the run-up to Kargil. PAF had to airlift radars to Deosai and Thandiani because the there was no time to dismantle them and take them up there by road and Musharraf was asking for PAF to engage the IAF because Musharraf made the blunder of assuming that Indians would not use airpower, which they did. Imagine, there was no contingency for air operations in Mushahrraf's Kargil plan. Then ACM PMQ told Musharraf: "You didn't inform us of the extent of the operations, you didn't give us time to prepare for air ops and if we get involved, it will be all-out war, for which the PAF is not ready at this time." PAF had already told the goverrnment that war with India should be avoided until such time that PAF acquires BVR capability, which it lacked at the time (and still lacks and will continue to lack until at least 2010).

I asked this PAF officer how could Musharraf not inform the PAF before going into what amounted to a war with India without sounding the PAF of his plans? I remember his words to this day. He said, "Musharraf is a great tactician but a poor strategist. He has a tactical mind, not a strategic one. He can win battles, but not wars."

By the way, Tufail made one wrong conclusion. Musharraf did not supercede a very talented high command of the PAF because he thought that Mushaf would be more agreeable, i.e. a "yes-man", he did so because when the PAF was approached during Kargil, Mushaf was one of those PAF officers who wanted PAF to engage the IAF and felt that there would be no all-out war.
__________________
R.M.S. Azam

"I will not write an article that will have less advantages and greater disadvantages for Pakistan. I believe that it was an error of judgment on Kaiser Tufail's part. This was not the right time to write it"

Kargil was ten years ago. it is because of people like asam that genuine history gets buried and people keep believing myths.
 
Interesting read. Please comment.


One-third of the aircraft were modern, ‘high-threat’ fighters equipped with Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missiles. During the preparatory stage, air defence alert status (5 minutes to scramble from ground) was maintained while Mirage-2000s and Jaguars carried out photo-reconnaissance along the Line of Control (LOC) and aging Canberras carried out electronic intelligence (ELINT) to ferret out locations of PAF air defence sensors. Last minute honing of strafing and rocketing skills was carried out by pilots at an air-to-ground firing range near Leh.

Operations by IAF started in earnest on 26 May, a full 16 days after commencement of Pakistani infiltration across the LOC. The salient feature of this initial phase was strafing and rocketing of the intruders’ positions by MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27. All operations (except air defence) came to a sudden standstill on 28 May, after two IAF fighters and a helicopter were lost – a MiG-21 and a Mi-17 to Pak Army surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), while a MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble caused by gun gas ingestion during high altitude strafing. (Incidentally, the pilot of the MiG-27 Flt Lt Nachiketa, who ejected and was apprehended, had a tête-à-tête with this author during an interesting ‘interrogation’ session.)

the infiltrators, with consequent adverse effects on morale. The results of this part of the campaign were largely insignificant, mainThe results achieved by the IAF in the first two days were dismal. Serious restraints seem to have been imposed on the freedom of action of IAF fighters in what was basically a search-and-destroy mission. Lt Gen Mehmud’s rant about a ‘Stinger on every peak’ seemed true. It was obvious that the IAF had under-estimated the SAM threat. The mood in Pak Army circles was that of undiluted elation, and the PAF was expected to sit it out while sharing the khakis’ glee.

The IAF immediately went into a reappraisal mode and came out with GPS-assisted high altitude bombing by MiG-21, MiG-23BN and MiG-27 as a makeshift solution. In the meantime, quick modification on the Mirage-2000 for day/night laser bombing kits (Litening pods) was initiated with the help of Israelis. Conventional bombing that started incessantly after a two-day operational hiatus, was aimed at harassment and denial of respite toly because the target coordinates were not known accurately; the nature of the terrain too, precluded precision. A few cases of fratricide by IAF led it to be even more cautious.

By 16 June, IAF was able to open up the laser-guided bombing campaign with the help of Jaguars and Mirage-2000. Daily photo-recce along the LOC by Jaguars escorted by Mirage-2000s, which had continued from the beginning of operations, proved crucial to both the aerial bombing campaign as well as the Indian artillery, helping the latter in accurately shelling Pakistani positions in the Dras-Kargil and Gultari Sectors. While the photo-recce missions typically did not involve deliberate border violations, there were a total of 37 ‘technical violations’ (which emanate as a consequence of kinks and bends in the geographical boundaries). Typically, these averaged to a depth of five nautical miles, except on one occasion when the IAF fighters apparently cocked-a-snoot at the PAF and came in 13 miles deep.

The Mirage-2000s scored at least five successful laser-guided bomb hits on forward dumping sites and posts. During the last days of operations which ended on 12 July, it was clear that delivery accuracy had improved considerably. Even though night bombing accuracy was suspect, round-the-clock attacks had made retention of posts untenable for Pakistani infiltrators. Photo-recce of Pakistani artillery gun positions also made them vulnerable to Indian artillery.

The IAF flew a total of 550 strike missions against infiltrator positions including bunkers and supply depots. The coordinates of these locations were mostly picked up from about 150 reconnaissance and communications intelligence missions. In addition, 500 missions were flown for air defence and for escorting strike and recce missions.

While the Indians had been surprised by the infiltration in Kargil, the IAF mobilised and reacted rapidly as the Indian Army took time to position itself. Later, when the Indian Army had entrenched itself, the IAF supplemented and filled in where the artillery could not be positioned in force. Clearly, Army-Air joint operations had a synergistic effect in evicting the intruders.

PAF in a Bind

From the very beginning of Kargil operations, PAF was entrapped by a circumstantial absurdity: it was faced with the ludicrous predicament of having to provide air support to infiltrators already disowned by the Pakistan Army leadership! In any case, it took some effort to impress on the latter that crossing the LOC by fighters laden with bombs was not, by any stretch of imagination, akin to lobbing a few artillery shells to settle scores. There was no doubt in the minds of PAF Air Staff that the first cross-border attack (whether across LOC or the international border) would invite an immediate response from the IAF, possibly in the shape of a retaliatory strike against the home base of the intruding fighters, thus starting the first round. PAF’s intervention meant all-out war: this unmistakable conclusion was conveyed to the Prime Minister, Mr Nawaz Sharif, by the Air Chief in no equivocal terms.

Short of starting an all-out war, PAF looked at some saner options that could put some wind in the sails after doldrums had been hit. Air Marshal Najib Akhtar, the Air Officer Commanding of Air Defence Command was co-opted by the Air Staff to sift the possibilities. Audacious and innovative in equal parts, Air Marshal Najib had an excellent knowledge about our own and the enemy’s Air Defence Ground Environment (ADGE). He had conceived and overseen the unprecedented heli-lift of a low-looking radar to a 14,000-ft mountain top on the forbidding Deosai Plateau. The highly risky operation became possible with the help of some courageous flying by Army Aviation pilots. With good low level radar cover now available up to the LOC, Air Marshal Najib along with the Air Staff focused on fighter sweep (a mission flown to destroy patrolling enemy fighters) as a possible option.

To prevent the mission from being seen as an escalatory step in the already charged atmosphere, PAF had to lure Indian fighters into its own territory, ie Azad Kashmir or the Northern Areas. That done, a number of issues had to be tackled. What if the enemy aircraft were hit in our territory but fell across, providing a pretext to India as a doubly aggrieved party? What if one of our own aircraft fell, no matter if the exchange was one-to-one (or better)? Finally, even if we were able to pull off a surprise, would it not be a one-off incident, with the IAF wisening up in quick time? The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which impinged unfavourably on the mission success probability. The conclusion was that a replication of the famous four-Vampire rout of 1st September 1965 by two Sabres might not be possible. The idea of a fighter sweep thus fizzled out as quickly as it came up for discussion.

While the PAF looked at some offensive options, it had a more pressing defensive issue at hand. The IAF’s minor border violations during recce missions were not of grave consequence in so far as no bombing had taken place in our territory; however, the fact that these missions helped the enemy refine its air and artillery targeting, was, to say the least, disconcerting. There were constant reports of our troops on the LOC disturbed to see (or hear) IAF fighters operating with apparent impunity. The GHQ took the matter up with the AHQ and it was resolved that Combat Air Patrols (CAPs) would be flown by the F-16s operating out of Minhas (Kamra) and Sargodha. This arrangement resulted in less on-station time but was safer than operating out of vulnerable Skardu, which had inadequate early warning in the mountainous terrain; its status as a turn-around facility was, however, considered acceptable for its location. A flight of F-7s was, nonetheless, deployed primarily for point defence of the important garrison town of Skardu as well as the air base.

F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place. After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff’s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.

Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF’s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.

It also must be noted too that other than F-16s, the PAF did not have a capable enough fighter for patrolling, as the minimum requirement in this scenario was an on-board airborne intercept radar, exceptional agility and sufficient staying power. F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance, while the ground attack Mirage-III/5s and A-5s were sitting ducks for the air combat mission.

In sum, the PAF found it expedient not to worry too much about minor border violations and instead, conserve resources for the larger conflagration that was looming. All the same, it gave the enemy no pretext for for retaliation in the face of any provocation, though this latter stance irked some quarters in the Army that were desperate to ‘equal the match’. Might it strike to some that PAF’s restraint in warding off a major conflagration may have been its paramount contribution to the Kargil conflict?

Aftermath

It has emerged that the principal protagonists of the Kargil adventure were the Chief of Army Staff (COAS): General Pervez Musharraf, Commander 10 Corps: Lt Gen Mehmud Ahmed and Commander Force Command Northern Areas (FCNA): Maj Gen Javed Hasan. The trio, in previous ranks and appointments, had been associated with planning during paper exercises on how to wrest control of lost territory in Siachen. The plans were not acceptable to the then Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, to whom the options had been put up for review more than once. She was well-versed in international affairs and, all too intelligent to be taken in by the chicanery. It fell to the wisdom of her successor, Mr Nawaz Sharif, to approve the Army trio’s self-serving presentation.

In an effort to keep the plan secret, which was thought to be the key to its successful initiation, the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its operational commanders nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed-loop thought process which engendered a string of oversights and failures:
Failure to grasp the wider military and diplomatic ramifications of a limited tactical operation that had the potential of creating strategic effects.

Failure to correctly visualise the response of a powerful enemy to what was, in effect, a major blow in a disputed sector.

Failure to spell out the specific aim to field commanders, who acted on their own to needlessly ‘capture’ territory and expand the scope of the operation to unmanageable levels.

Failure to appreciate the inability of the Army officers to evaluate the capabilities and limitations of an Air Force.

Failure to coordinate contingency plans at the tri-services level.
The flaws in the Kargil Plan that led to these failures were almost palpable and, could not have escaped even a layman’s attention during a cursory examination. The question arises as to why all the planners got blinded to the obvious? Could it be that some of the sub-ordinates had the sight but not the nerve in the face of a powerful superior? In hierarchical organisations, there is precious little room for dissent, but in autocratic ones like the military, it takes more than a spine to disagree, for there are very few commanders who are large enough to allow such liberties. It is out of fear of annoying the superior – which also carries with it manifold penalties and loss of promotion and perks – that the majority decide to go along with the wind.

In a country where democratic traditions have never been deep-rooted, it is no big exposé to point out that the military is steeped in an authoritarian, rather than a consensual approach. To my mind, there is an urgent need to inculcate a more liberal culture that accommodates different points of view – a more lateral approach, so to speak. Disagreement during planning should be systemically tolerated and, not taken as a personal affront. Unfortunately, many in higher ranks seem to think that rank alone confers wisdom and, anyone displaying signs of intelligence at an earlier stage is, somehow, an alien in their ‘star-spangled’ universe.

Kargil, I suspect, like the ‘65 and ‘71 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (‘devil’s advocates’, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course. Such an organisational milieu, based on honest appraisal and fearless appeal, would be conducive to sound and sensible planning. It would also go a long way in precluding Kargil-like disasters.

Tailpiece

Come change-over time of the Chief of Air Staff in 2001, President Musharraf struck at PAF’s top leadership in what can only be described as implacable action: he passed over all five Air Marshals and appointed the sixth-in-line who was practically an Air Vice Marshal till a few weeks before. While disregarding of seniority in the appointment of service chiefs has historically been endemic in the country, the practice has been seen as breeding nepotism and partiality, besides leaving a trail of conjecture and gossip in the ranks. Given Air Chief Marshal Mehdi’s rather straight-faced and forthright dealings with a somewhat junior General Musharraf particularly during Kargil conflict, there is good reason to believe that the latter decided to appoint a not-very-senior Air Chief whom he could order around like one of his Corps Commanders. (As it turned out, Air Chief Marshal Mus’haf was as solid as his predecessor and gave no quarter when it came to PAF’s interests.) Whatever the reason of bypassing seniority, it was unfortunate that PAF’s precious corporate experience was thrown out so crassly and several careers destroyed. Lives and honour lost in Kargil is another matter.
A good read and pretty unbiased article.
Also proves that the Pakistani claim that Nachiketa's MiG-27 was downed by a was a big fat lie.

He also accepted Kargil as a failure.
 
"After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’," Than why we are still using F-16 against Talibs if costs are so high ? And that proves also the Turks could not help us in Kargil war 1999 by providing us with spare parts for the F-16.


In this war we were alone.
 
i FIND THIS statement shocking

"After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’,

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...l-pafs-role-paf-officer-10.html#ixzz2gDj3kjjG

Shocking because the IAF where flying 500 sorties a day at its peak and actively involved but did not run out of spares.

YET PAF ran out of spares without firing a SINGLE SHOT or was he referring to FUEL
 
i FIND THIS statement shocking



Shocking because the IAF where flying 500 sorties a day at its peak and actively involved but did not run out of spares.

YET PAF ran out of spares without firing a SINGLE SHOT or was he referring to FUEL

The PAF officer i.e. A/Cdre Kaiser Tufail is simply speaking about the issue of spares for the F-16s. The F-16s then happened to be the cutting edge weapon in the PAF armory; but the edge was severely blunted by the lack of operational spares. Which was a consequence of the US imposed Embargo/Santions. For example; there was a lack of cartridges for their ejection seats. Now a Fighter Aircraft cannot fly without fully operational ejection seats. This was just one of the things.
He was not speaking about Fuel.

However; as the Indian response got ramped up, the Indian Navy began to put in place a Blockade by Sea. That is when it transpired that Pakistan's POL stocks were down to 6 days worth of 'conflict requirements'. But it cannot be automatically surmised whether this extended across the PAF's stocks of fuel.

But in any case; the long and short of it is that the PAF was simply unprepared as A/Cdre Kaiser has explained. The PAF had no BVR capability, which the IAF had. The Mirage 3/5 fleet as well as the Chinese-origin MiG-19s were simply outdated and in Kaser Tufail's words "sitting ducks". About the chinese-origin F-7s (MiG-21s) he says: "F-7s had reasonably good manoeuvrability but lacked an intercept radar as well as endurance". Then there was lack of Radar Cover for the PAF in that region while he adds: "vulnerable Skardu, which had inadequate early warning in the mountainous terrain". Now Skardu was the only operational PAF base in that area!
In conclusion A/Cdre Tufail says; "the PAF found it expedient not to worry too much about minor border violations and instead, conserve resources for the larger conflagration that was looming". In other words; the PAF had found it convenient to ignore many of the goings-on simply because it had no choice but to so.
Finally he says, very tellingly and validly: "Might it strike to some that PAF’s restraint in warding off a major conflagration may have been its paramount contribution to the Kargil conflict?"
This is absolutely correct, because the PA (or more correctly, a Cabal 'Gang of Four') had just blindly rushed into a conflict that it could not sustain! While the PAF was in no way equipped to bail out the PA from the self-created SNAFU.
This was very different from 1965 when the PAF was able to rescue the PA from the self-created quagmire that it had got itself into.
History had just repeated itself; but with a vastly different conclusion!
 
There was no distribution of sweets in mohallas or anything. Rather,people were just wondering what happens next. The only place where there were sweets being distributed were those who had a bone to pick with NS. The rest of your post is again gibberish that resembles somebody frothing away at their mouth rather than taking an objective look into the matter.

The right thing to do was to hold elections. The right thing to do , if there was a brave move to be done in honour and principle and not just to usurp power and sit on it; was to disqualify people accused of corruption and then hold elections. That would have ensured that certain big players dont come to power at all and would have one upped Gen Kakar's approach in dealing with NS.
But he did not, and moreover.. there are already whistle blowers who are pointing to his alleged coup months before to avoid embarrassment for his Hara Kiri of thousands of Pakistani troops in kargil.

nice fabrication, truns twists , thts what you hve learned from your UK studies?
i think dam gilbesish mind of yours stillmcant accept the fact, that it was NS, & his wisemans who push army into action, by telling them lies?
ok the biggest whistle blower wasnt was mr, A Q khan?
who on the record said 100 times, that NS was coward, who wasnt ready to put the big bang?
what you think, planing a coup just takes COAS to just oder the dam thing or plan alone?lolzz stop looking aik din geo key sath?lolzz
tht really shows, your knowledge about army,s command structure, its workings?lolzz
no its not a dam political party ,s noora head, just odering his mental slaves to hve a go & get on SC, &they just do that?
or to buy KFC..?
in rawalpindi, sweets were distributed, in streets, even in karachi cause at that time BB was herself happy & MQM, lets move farward?
right thing was to give a dam break on NOORA damocrazy, just like today overhual the system , give back to the players & it just not take a dam day?
he did it?
i was the part of that dam hara kari, called kargill ?
which at least showen the world that, we can plan & execute at our free will, & at anytime?
it was master pice, just broken down by the oders of a coward PM, who was doing that to, copy MR BHUTTO in 71?
also it, was right move but our, dam damocrazy NOORA PM, just went away crying to the sexual asulter president mr, clinton?
telling him, he is too inocent, or he is the puppy & pak army did it alone?
kargill was planned & executed with in the, very knowledge of that, pice junk?
with very carefully kept records?
well thats not the topic , here to top your, gilbiesh mind ?
which is a production of hamid mir or najam sethi?
come to topic!
was LAL MASJID ops were, wrong?
wasnt was the terrorists were given the sufficiant time to surrender?
& who killed the SSG officers in that, raid ? INDIAN ARMY or mulana cammando,s?
its like very famous , words from some of his interviews?
MR, hamid mir the geo superstar was asking , president musharaf why he is waiting, why dont he take action against terrorists?
after the LAL MASJID OPS, the same bastrd, was saying ohh, it looks bad?
that all was bound to pop up, it was all paid & planned by CIA & RAW, just to get rid off, from the strongest president in the pakistani history & to install a fakemsystem , which slowly break the country?
its all happening now, which means no govt has the right to fight or stop terrorists, just because they can luanch an FIR, on COAS, PM, CJ for the dead terrorists in the fight?
i mean it, plz take a rest or, just get a break?
cause we live in a damocratic, world where a democratic super power is acting , pre emptivly to strike down, who ever they want or think dangerous for thier national security?
wake up kid, its the college time, just do your studies!
 
Ahh, now you have put the 'finger on the facts'. (The misadventure at) Kargil actually cast the die for all the events that were visited upon the 'hapless awaam' of Pakistan. For the life of me; I wonder who did not see the unsuitability of Musharraff to progress beyond staff rank. Undoubtedly, he may have been a great subaltern; but to be even a half-way decent General, one has to have some intellect- not the skills of a "rodeo performer".

For that matter Monsieur, neither were Ayub, Musa or any of these men.. but that is the story of the Murder of PA's Officer corps which began with Ayub. Once merit was put down the drain for those that knew how much Soda, Gin and Tonic you like.. there was little to prevent Gibraltar or Kargil like disasters from these half wit Clausewitz wannabes who come up with brilliant opening paragraphs like Hemingway but then have little vocabulary or ideas(Or bad ones) to leave the piece in a state that would not befit a Montessori book.
After all, one must ask of decisions such as change of command at Akhnur(leave the fact that it was Hara Kiri to start with) or did you think about what after during Kargil really do have a lot of resemblance to a roulette player rather than a Poker player.

There are however, definitely many professionals who make it through who(while not Rommels) know their remember key ideas from Staff/War colleges and(many might disagree with me) Kayani is one of them. Perhaps if this quarter witted democratic process survives and some semblance of public accountability lives it may dawn that the officer corps are on merit from top to bottom in totality without any internal or external interference;As men like Nawaz Sharif or Bhutto havent helped along much in trying to put a Toady(s) into office rather than deserving folks. Alas, the cycle is essentially a product of the surviving feudal/elitist system that essentially creates(If I may take liberty) a cabal of the Kshatriyas and Vaishyas who occasionally collude with Brahmin to ensure their gains by using and influencing Shudras while keeping the Dalits deprived of anything else.
 
Ahh, now you have put the 'finger on the facts'. (The misadventure at) Kargil actually cast the die for all the events that were visited upon the 'hapless awaam' of Pakistan. For the life of me; I wonder who did not see the unsuitability of Musharraff to progress beyond staff rank. Undoubtedly, he may have been a great subaltern; but to be even a half-way decent General, one has to have some intellect- not the skills of a "rodeo performer".

Nawaz shareef is known to have interests in india, he owns business there, it were his indian friends who freed nawaz from the gallows by convincing saudis to have a deal which made his escape route

it was nawaz who leaked Kargil op which was super classified to his american masters

and in turn americans told the indians what pakistan was upto

this is the proof that Kargil operation wasn't wrong

 
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nice fabrication, truns twists , thts what you hve learned from your UK studies?
i think dam gilbesish mind of yours stillmcant accept the fact, that it was NS, & his wisemans who push army into action, by telling them lies?
ok the biggest whistle blower wasnt was mr, A Q khan?
who on the record said 100 times, that NS was coward, who wasnt ready to put the big bang?
what you think, planing a coup just takes COAS to just oder the dam thing or plan alone?lolzz stop looking aik din geo key sath?lolzz
tht really shows, your knowledge about army,s command structure, its workings?lolzz
no its not a dam political party ,s noora head, just odering his mental slaves to hve a go & get on SC, &they just do that?
or to buy KFC..?
in rawalpindi, sweets were distributed, in streets, even in karachi cause at that time BB was herself happy & MQM, lets move farward?
right thing was to give a dam break on NOORA damocrazy, just like today overhual the system , give back to the players & it just not take a dam day?
he did it?
i was the part of that dam hara kari, called kargill ?
which at least showen the world that, we can plan & execute at our free will, & at anytime?
it was master pice, just broken down by the oders of a coward PM, who was doing that to, copy MR BHUTTO in 71?
also it, was right move but our, dam damocrazy NOORA PM, just went away crying to the sexual asulter president mr, clinton?
telling him, he is too inocent, or he is the puppy & pak army did it alone?
kargill was planned & executed with in the, very knowledge of that, pice junk?
with very carefully kept records?
well thats not the topic , here to top your, gilbiesh mind ?
which is a production of hamid mir or najam sethi?
come to topic!
was LAL MASJID ops were, wrong?
wasnt was the terrorists were given the sufficiant time to surrender?
& who killed the SSG officers in that, raid ? INDIAN ARMY or mulana cammando,s?
its like very famous , words from some of his interviews?
MR, hamid mir the geo superstar was asking , president musharaf why he is waiting, why dont he take action against terrorists?
after the LAL MASJID OPS, the same bastrd, was saying ohh, it looks bad?
that all was bound to pop up, it was all paid & planned by CIA & RAW, just to get rid off, from the strongest president in the pakistani history & to install a fakemsystem , which slowly break the country?
its all happening now, which means no govt has the right to fight or stop terrorists, just because they can luanch an FIR, on COAS, PM, CJ for the dead terrorists in the fight?
i mean it, plz take a rest or, just get a break?
cause we live in a damocratic, world where a democratic super power is acting , pre emptivly to strike down, who ever they want or think dangerous for thier national security?
wake up kid, its the college time, just do your studies!

Sifting again to pick out key words.

rawalpindi, sweets

Rawalpindi is a cantonment town and hence very pro military.. so it is quite logical that military men would be quite happy with the takeover(to the extent to distribute sweets).

There is no proof of Benazir being happy at Musharrafs move and her books reflect this. MQM are supported and linked with a class(Businessmen and Bureaucrats) that traditionally gets along well with the military(due to perceived benefits from their links) from the times of Ayub Khan. None of the wide spread firing, fireworks and sweets anywhere else as such in the country. Not in cheecho ki malian or in Quetta.

Now, NS coward, Big bang.. I assume its the Nuclear program. NS was/is very much a man of lesser gait who prefers the status quo(due to both monetary and legacy issues). Moreover, accounts from multiple personalities including clinton refer to severe threats given to him(and the nation of Pakistan) for testing a nuclear weapon. However, eventually after consulting and prodding he did "push the button" and not give in to American Pressure. By contrast, the Commando(from his own account) was scared out of "being bombed to the stone age" that he did not go beyond war games to consult any political party and ended up placing Pakistan on a platter to the US.

Kargil

The accounts of former military officers are enough in this case so it is better you argue with them. Regardless of whether Hamid Mir is a CIA/RAW/MOSSAD agent or not. I doubt that AVM Latif or Gen Talat are.

Fake system

The system has been around since 1973 and Gen Musharraf has taken oath to it. Decide on how you want to paint him.

I would like to point out that Pakistans economy was doing good in Musharraf era.

It was undoubtedly. The same was in the Ayub era. Technocrats work, sound financial knowledge works. However, most of all; favourable international relations and massive concessions by the largest economic power knows the the United States goes a long way.
 
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Nawaz shareef is known to have interests in india, he owns business there, it were his indian friends who freed nawaz from the gallows by convincing saudis to have a deal which made his escape route

it was nawaz who leaked Kargil op which was super classified to his american masters

and in turn americans told the indians what pakistan was upto

this is the proof that Kargil operation wasn't wrong


Is that so? Can you locate point 17561 (the point you're referring to) on a map? It might surprise you once you find out where it actually is.

@Oscar Merit dies in many ways, not just under a military rule that may favor nepotism. We too have had political appointments of lukewarm generals while real war-fighters have been ostracized and chased away.
 
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Is that so? Can you locate point 17561 (the point you're referring to) on a map? It might surprise you once you find out where it actually is.

@Oscar Merit dies in many ways, not just under a military rule that may favor nepotism. We too have had political appointments of lukewarm generals while real war-fighters have been ostracized and chased away.

We would be naive or rather insecure to presume that the same does not happen in other military forces around the world including the US(recent spate of Generals being fired is evidence that they have their black sheep as well). However, their fellows are usually shunted around to(relatively) less important commands if certain personality traits are seen as civilian oversight does not leave room for too much of Yes-men and Pets. Here, these men regularly end up three stars.
 
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Sifting again to pick out key words.

rawalpindi, sweets

Rawalpindi is a cantonment town and hence very pro military.. so it is quite logical that military men would be quite happy with the takeover(to the extent to distribute sweets).

There is no proof of Benazir being happy at Musharrafs move and her books reflect this. MQM are supported and linked with a class(Businessmen and Bureaucrats) that traditionally gets along well with the military(due to perceived benefits from their links) from the times of Ayub Khan. None of the wide spread firing, fireworks and sweets anywhere else as such in the country. Not in cheecho ki malian or in Quetta.

Now, NS coward, Big bang.. I assume its the Nuclear program. NS was/is very much a man of lesser gait who prefers the status quo(due to both monetary and legacy issues). Moreover, accounts from multiple personalities including clinton refer to severe threats given to him(and the nation of Pakistan) for testing a nuclear weapon. However, eventually after consulting and prodding he did "push the button" and not give in to American Pressure. By contrast, the Commando(from his own account) was scared out of "being bombed to the stone age" that he did not go beyond war games to consult any political party and ended up placing Pakistan on a platter to the US.

Kargil

The accounts of former military officers are enough in this case so it is better you argue with them. Regardless of whether Hamid Mir is a CIA/RAW/MOSSAD agent or not. I doubt that AVM Latif or Gen Talat are.

Fake system

The system has been around since 1973 and Gen Musharraf has taken oath to it. Decide on how you want to paint him.



It was undoubtedly. The same was in the Ayub era. Technocrats work, sound financial knowledge works. However, most of all; favourable international relations and massive concessions by the largest economic power knows the the United States goes a long way.

i dont need to argue about kargill, to any one as both are great gentlemens, but were never was the part of planing kargill?
PA s succses rate in kargill was certified & exposed, when indian defence minster dear george fernendus of that time was caught by a intersting scandle, which was about the over import of wood for cofins, for indian soilders killed by PA at kargill?
but i was the foot fighting force, the vry part which was butcherd just because of a coward PM, trying to inlarge him self?
yes the system is & was fake, since its begenings?
it was delibratidly done by ZAB, who thought by giving up the former pakistan to india, with pinned surrender of PA, he just burried the ghost?
then he went in with stupid master pice eye washer, which is the soul of every crouption & illegalities?
sorry MUSHARAF oath isnt under 73 constitution! thats another argument?
some other time, some other place?
our topic is rearrest of former president musharaf in LAL MASJID ops case, in which terrotist mullha & his terrorists died along with, patriotic SSg commandos, who just went in the mosque after the denial of surrender by the terrorists & thier leader?
dont trun & twist the topic, just prove your 3rd garde damocratic, biasd , gilberish mind?
just belive me when , i was writting those dam words, i was sad about you, yes my youth , after me?
blineded by the fake love of democracy?
with terrorists getting free offices, from our selfish politicians& our PA soilders getting shadat every day, just defending this country?
but bomb blasts hitting 4 provinces in same day?
what is going to happen, another FIR on PA,ITS OFFICERS, ITS SOILDERS , WHY THEY CHOSE TO DEFEND THIER COUNTRY FROM ITS ENEMIES?
its really getting over for your damocrazy, its days are numbered!
now its enough, of derailing of thread?
nothing from you on this regurd?
 
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