Kabul this evening

[Irfan Baloch]

anything in Afghanistan worth getting ?

of course, drones and other aeroplanes and other military hightech hardware if its still in one piece then its worth getting.

 

[Goritoes]

of course, drones and other aeroplanes and other military hightech hardware if its still in one piece then its worth getting.

I think Americans spend their last days in making sure everything worth using is destroyed. I doubt there will be any drones left in Afghanistan, maybe some fix wing aircrafts and heli's.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

For anyone to demand anything in Pakistan contrary to its current setup. especially a talibaniesq setup. You might see some morons here cheering for taliban in afghanistan, same people do not want that in their own nick of woods.

Well, as you know Pakistan has four neighbours.

China is ruled by fanatical commies/atheists.
India is ruled by fascist Hindus.
Iran is ruled by religious fanatics.
Afghanistan has just been taken over by the Islamic Emirate.

Considering the above, do you really think Pakistan (which is a deeply conservative society) is not going to want a religious clerical Government of sorts for itself when it is surrounded by the above four Governments?

Back in the 1990s after the Taliban took over Afghanistan, Pakistan as a state started to go through a deliberate change to be more aligned with Afghanistan and Iran. However, this was abruptly stopped post 11 September 2001 attacks and "enlightened moderation" was imposed on the nation instead.

What you probably are not aware of and it hasn't clicked to most Pakistanis either as of yet is that for nearly a decade now a certain school of thought has been subtly promoted in Pakistan by the hierarchy through the official and private media. This thinking is more aligned with the Islamic Emirate's thinking and it's been given a lot of space to grow slowly and peacefully.

What Indians have forgotten as of now is that about 10-years ago, India too had started to experiment and promote the same school of thought in Indian Occupied Kashmir which the Islamic Emirate follows as it had assumed at that time that the Islamic Emirate would never return to power in Afghanistan. (Consequences of this experiment are yet to be seen).

While Pakistan did so to make the Pakistani population more accepting of the eventual Islamic Emirate takeover of Afghanistan, India however, did so for other reasons which it thought would appeal to the Kashmiris to be part of India (in order to spread Islam in that majority Hindu nation as an incentive) than wanting to join with Pakistan (which is already a Muslim nation).

So far, investing in Pakistan's long-term goal is paying off.

 

[jamal18]

Here's the undeniable.

1. A group of badly armed muslims have defeated the greatest empire in the world.

2. They are Pakistan's allies and have secured Pakistan's western frontier.

The strategic positives of these events is off the richter scale.

And the Pakistani kala ingriz are crying?

 

[Hyde]

Query-
Quite confused, the entire forum seems is cheerleading for Taliban, @Irfan Baloch seems to suggest this as a negative development. The other senior Mods celebrating, Are Pakistanis in support of the Taliban , is the view divided, or are Pakistanis in general anti-taliban?

There is public in Pakistan, some of them are happy about Taliban whereas most Government officials are worried about the future

there are members on PDF, some of them are happy about Taliban whereas most Moderators including myself are worried about the future

Taliban gaining power is no problem but what happens afterwards is worrisome. I am not sure how credible the Taliban government will be after Taliban are taking over by force and for how long do they want to rule Afghanistan and if public will ever have a voice to say or they will always be shot dead for difference of opinion

so many unanswered questions right now

PS: This is not 16th century when Babur will invade Delhi and take over the country by force and his descendants will carry on ruling for another 300+ years. The Afghan government will never be credible if it did not allow the right to vote and the Taliban must know that. A lot of Pakistanis are happy for one simple reason that existing Afghan Government was anti-Pakistan so any alternative to that must be good

 

[xeuss]

It's back to '90s for India. Unfortunately, this time around there is no Gen Massoud, no Gen Fahim, no Panjshir resistance. Given history is repeating itself, wonder if an incident like IC814 does too...won't be surprised.

I suspect India will wash its hands off Afghanistan for the time being, until another opportunity to oppose the Taliban presents itself, which seems unlikely in the near future.

So it will fall back to limited relations with Taliban, with trade/commerce the main factor.

In any case, Modi & Co, seem more focused in its efforts to establish their authoritarian rule in India. Afghanistan will be relegated to a desk in MEA and RAW.

 

[MilSpec]

Well, as you know Pakistan has four neighbours.

China is ruled by fanatical commies/atheists.
India is ruled by fascist Hindus.
Iran is ruled by religious fanatics.
Afghanistan has just been taken over by the Islamic Emirate.

Considering the above, do you really think Pakistan (which is a deeply conservative society) is not going to want a religious clerical Government of sorts for itself when it is surrounded by the above four Governments?

Back in the 1990s after the Taliban took over Afghanistan, Pakistan as a state started to go through a deliberate change to be more aligned with Afghanistan and Iran. However, this was abruptly stopped post 11 September 2001 attacks and "enlightened moderation" was imposed on the nation instead.

What you probably are not aware of and it hasn't clicked to most Pakistanis either as of yet is that for nearly a decade now a certain school of thought has been subtly promoted in Pakistan by the hierarchy through the official and private media. This thinking is more aligned with the Islamic Emirate's thinking and it's been given a lot of space to grow slowly and peacefully.

What Indians have forgotten as of now is that about 10-years ago, India too had started to experiment and promote the same school of thought in Indian Occupied Kashmir which the Islamic Emirate follows as it had assumed at that time that the Islamic Emirate would never return to power in Afghanistan. (Consequences of this experiment are yet to be seen).

While Pakistan did so to make the Pakistani population more accepting of the eventual Islamic Emirate takeover of Afghanistan, India however, did so for other reasons which it thought would appeal to the Kashmiris to be part of India (in order to spread Islam in that majority Hindu nation as an incentive) than wanting to join with Pakistan (which is already a Muslim nation).

So far, investing in Pakistan's long-term goal is paying off.

A bit kooky for my comprehension, But I appreciate the thought and the effort put into the response. Maybe you know something I don't but, will tag you if this indeed is the direction it goes to.

Regards.

There is public in Pakistan, some of them are happy about Taliban whereas most Government officials are worried about the future

there are members on PDF, some of them are happy about Taliban whereas most Moderators including myself are worried about the future

Taliban gaining power is no problem but what happens afterwards is worrisome. I am not sure how credible the Taliban government will be after Taliban are taking over by force and for how long do they want to rule Afghanistan and if public will ever have a voice to say or they will always be shot dead for difference of opinion

so many unanswered questions right now

PS: This is not 16th century when Babur will invade Delhi and take over the country by force and his descendants will carry on ruling for another 300+ years. The Afghan government will never be credible if it did not allow the right to vote and the Taliban must know that. A lot of Pakistanis are happy for one simple reason that existing Afghan Government was anti-Pakistan so any alternative to that must be good

Thanks @SQ8 @Zaki @Irfan Baloch for well informed responses.


In you own estimates, what is the level of association between the Pakistani establishment and this version of Taliban. let's say from a zero to 10 scale. Zero being nothing to 10 being active military advisors embedded as in 96.

 

[SQ8]

There were no hostilities for Pakistan on afghan flank 94-2001. right? TTp started after US intervention iirc.

It's back to '90s for India. Unfortunately, this time around there is no Gen Massoud, no Gen Fahim, no Panjshir resistance. Given history is repeating itself, wonder if an incident like IC814 does too...won't be surprised.

There were no “hostilities” but sporadic militancy and “hijacking” for equipment to use against the Northern alliance. That northern alliance just ran with their tails tucked across the Uzbek and Tajik borders.
Now it is possible for India to do the same again and finance them for another offensive especially since now they also have a good 30k or so highly trained Afg special forces that both know how to fight and with good pay and support will do so. But at the end, history isn’t repeating itself and is. India’s greatest victory against Pakistan isn’t the idiotic aborgation of 370 or the angst planted in Kashmiris or FATF per se - it is you. The NRI who are educated and represented the top 10% of US tech leadership. Unlike the narrow minded Pakistani immigrants who at best can buy petrol stations and look for loopholes - the Indian immigrants from the higher educated middle class( there is a class engaged in fraud and loopholes from NRIs too and it would be surprising if you deny it) are talking the talk and walking the white walk, intermarrying with them and laughing on the borderline racist jokes without batting an eye because they know they will run the company in 8 years so long as they keep their mouth shut. They are good subordinates (not to fellow desis incl Indians) to the structures and then work as expected for the firms. But, they are now also in the state department, in local governments and with businesses doing fundraising and contributing to politicians. They will influence what despite all the naysayers is still the most powerful conventional military and scientific powerhouse along with essentially controlling the United Nations. So tomorrow if this diaspora is able to plant enough seeds, connect and be in the US circles of power while happily throwing colors of holi and yoga; they can push for sanctions against Pakistan, cut it off from its primary export markets and play havoc with the elite and “religious” class moles the United States already has now. Or they can launch an attack on China in coordination with the Indian military and make that battlefield the Pakistani geography.

And that same NRI success is seen in most GCC countries, in Europe and eventually other places. Finally, the Indian consumer market(regardless of greater ratio of poor or not) is 20 times larger than Pakistan’s can ever hope to be. I am as a Pakistani American more focused on exploiting the Indian market despite having more competition here more so than I will ever care for Pakistan as my market. I’ll make $250k in sales on what is essentially automatic online business run by three people in a year than the $30k Ill get from the Pakistani market -it is just better business sense.

India claiming isolation now is foolish and delusional.. but see if that same claim comes back in force in just 5 years.It was and will always be the economic aspect - the Pakistani population is simply not intelligent enough to understand this but the establishment slowly is.

Today, the Afghanistan army that fell was due to the economy? Because they weren’t getting paid and neither were the tribal leaders around them seeing any change in the corruption. All the Taliban did was give them money to buy whatever they needed, even if it was 1/50th of what the US was providing to get to them but lost due to corruption. The United States saw our strategy fail not because Pakistan provided sanctuary or support, at best the alleged sanctuary would help by 5 years. It failed because it saw a geographic map with provinces and districts while the Taliban saw a tribal one.

A bit kooky for my comprehension, But I appreciate the thought and the effort put into the response. Maybe you know something I don't but, will tag you if this indeed is the direction it goes to.

Regards.

Thanks @SQ8 @Zaki @Irfan Baloch for well informed responses.


In you own estimates, what is the level of association between the Pakistani establishment and this version of Taliban. let's say from a zero to 10 scale. Zero being nothing to 10 being active military advisors embedded as in 96.

96-2002 - involvement fluctuated from 6-10.
2002-2007 - involvement went down to 2-1
2007(ttp rises) - present (2-4)

 

[MilSpec]

There were no “hostilities” but sporadic militancy and “hijacking” for equipment to use against the Northern alliance. That northern alliance just ran with their tails tucked across the Uzbek and Tajik borders.
Now it is possible for India to do the same again and finance them for another offensive especially since now they also have a good 30k or so highly trained Afg special forces that both know how to fight and with good pay and support will do so. But at the end, history isn’t repeating itself and is. India’s greatest victory against Pakistan isn’t the idiotic aborgation of 370 or the angst planted in Kashmiris or FATF per se - it is you. The NRI who are educated and represented the top 10% of US tech leadership. Unlike the narrow minded Pakistani immigrants who at best can buy petrol stations and look for loopholes - the Indian immigrants from the higher educated middle class( there is a class engaged in fraud and loopholes from NRIs too and it would be surprising if you deny it) are talking the talk and walking the white walk, intermarrying with them and laughing on the borderline racist jokes without batting an eye because they know they will run the company in 8 years so long as they keep their mouth shut. They are good subordinates (not to fellow desis incl Indians) to the structures and then work as expected for the firms. But, they are now also in the state department, in local governments and with businesses doing fundraising and contributing to politicians. They will influence what despite all the naysayers is still the most powerful conventional military and scientific powerhouse along with essentially controlling the United Nations. So tomorrow if this diaspora is able to plant enough seeds, connect and be in the US circles of power while happily throwing colors of holi and yoga; they can push for sanctions against Pakistan, cut it off from its primary export markets and play havoc with the elite and “religious” class moles the United States already has now. Or they can launch an attack on China in coordination with the Indian military and make that battlefield the Pakistani geography.

And that same NRI success is seen in most GCC countries, in Europe and eventually other places. Finally, the Indian consumer market(regardless of greater ratio of poor or not) is 20 times larger than Pakistan’s can ever hope to be. I am as a Pakistani American more focused on exploiting the Indian market despite having more competition here more so than I will ever care for Pakistan as my market. I’ll make $250k in sales on what is essentially automatic online business run by three people in a year than the $30k Ill get from the Pakistani market -it is just better business sense.

India claiming isolation now is foolish and delusional.. but see if that same claim comes back in force in just 5 years.It was and will always be the economic aspect - the Pakistani population is simply not intelligent enough to understand this but the establishment slowly is.

Today, the Afghanistan army that fell was due to the economy? Because they weren’t getting paid and neither were the tribal leaders around them seeing any change in the corruption. All the Taliban did was give them money to buy whatever they needed, even if it was 1/50th of what the US was providing to get to them but lost due to corruption. The United States saw our strategy fail not because Pakistan provided sanctuary or support, at best the alleged sanctuary would help by 5 years. It failed because it saw a geographic map with provinces and districts while the Taliban saw a tribal one.

96-2002 - involvement fluctuated from 6-10.
2002-2007 - involvement went down to 2-1
2007(ttp rises) - present (2-4)

would rate +ve if I could; no disagreement here, for 90% of the crux of what you have written.

Indian diaspora is not united to push for anything like you envision, in my personal capacity I might be able to facilitate a few promotions or hire If I chose to, but a united front to damage Pakistan among the diaspora is far from the reality. Most of the diaspora is guided by personal ambition and that is how it will remain. The second-generation immigrant are full coconuts, and there is a sliver which are made up of rabid-anti-India which mill make the loudest mouths here look like pussy cats.

U.S failure in Afghanistan, if you look at the high-level simplification, what were they to gain even if Afghanistan was stable. There just wasn't enough to gain there, even from rare earth mineral perspective, US would much rather let the chinese mine it package it and ship it, value add it into components, chips and motors and ship it to the US anyways.

They just went- Here you are it.(Pakistan) and just look at the pin drop silence from most vocal quarters of dems, Ihan Omar/AOC were so worried about farmer protests in India, Kabul fall and they are looking the other way.

Well, Lets hope all the anti-state ops that were from Afghan soil against your country now come to standstill.

 

[Metal 0-1]

Any updates on PIA flights stranded in Kabul?

 

[Goritoes]

There were no “hostilities” but sporadic militancy and “hijacking” for equipment to use against the Northern alliance. That northern alliance just ran with their tails tucked across the Uzbek and Tajik borders.
Now it is possible for India to do the same again and finance them for another offensive especially since now they also have a good 30k or so highly trained Afg special forces that both know how to fight and with good pay and support will do so. But at the end, history isn’t repeating itself and is. India’s greatest victory against Pakistan isn’t the idiotic aborgation of 370 or the angst planted in Kashmiris or FATF per se - it is you. The NRI who are educated and represented the top 10% of US tech leadership. Unlike the narrow minded Pakistani immigrants who at best can buy petrol stations and look for loopholes - the Indian immigrants from the higher educated middle class( there is a class engaged in fraud and loopholes from NRIs too and it would be surprising if you deny it) are talking the talk and walking the white walk, intermarrying with them and laughing on the borderline racist jokes without batting an eye because they know they will run the company in 8 years so long as they keep their mouth shut. They are good subordinates (not to fellow desis incl Indians) to the structures and then work as expected for the firms. But, they are now also in the state department, in local governments and with businesses doing fundraising and contributing to politicians. They will influence what despite all the naysayers is still the most powerful conventional military and scientific powerhouse along with essentially controlling the United Nations. So tomorrow if this diaspora is able to plant enough seeds, connect and be in the US circles of power while happily throwing colors of holi and yoga; they can push for sanctions against Pakistan, cut it off from its primary export markets and play havoc with the elite and “religious” class moles the United States already has now. Or they can launch an attack on China in coordination with the Indian military and make that battlefield the Pakistani geography.

And that same NRI success is seen in most GCC countries, in Europe and eventually other places. Finally, the Indian consumer market(regardless of greater ratio of poor or not) is 20 times larger than Pakistan’s can ever hope to be. I am as a Pakistani American more focused on exploiting the Indian market despite having more competition here more so than I will ever care for Pakistan as my market. I’ll make $250k in sales on what is essentially automatic online business run by three people in a year than the $30k Ill get from the Pakistani market -it is just better business sense.

India claiming isolation now is foolish and delusional.. but see if that same claim comes back in force in just 5 years.It was and will always be the economic aspect - the Pakistani population is simply not intelligent enough to understand this but the establishment slowly is.

Today, the Afghanistan army that fell was due to the economy? Because they weren’t getting paid and neither were the tribal leaders around them seeing any change in the corruption. All the Taliban did was give them money to buy whatever they needed, even if it was 1/50th of what the US was providing to get to them but lost due to corruption. The United States saw our strategy fail not because Pakistan provided sanctuary or support, at best the alleged sanctuary would help by 5 years. It failed because it saw a geographic map with provinces and districts while the Taliban saw a tribal one.

96-2002 - involvement fluctuated from 6-10.
2002-2007 - involvement went down to 2-1
2007(ttp rises) - present (2-4)

You are extremely Materialist person my friend, The Duniya has consume to a point of no return I fear. (Observation and not Judgement)

 

[SQ8]

You are extremely Materialist person my friend, The Duniya has consume to a point of no return I fear.

If only you were the one to offer judgement. I leave that to Allah and know where I stand. I am no puritan from materialistic wants but the high horse beaten by those themselves in the United States and who live off materialism only reflects the same hypocrisy i chose to leave behind in Pakistan.

Tell me, what events led to the battle of Badr?

 

[Goritoes]

If only you were the one to offer judgement. I leave that to Allah and know where I stand. I am no puritan from materialistic wants but the high horse beaten by those themselves in the United States and who live off materialism only reflects the same hypocrisy i chose to leave behind in Pakistan.

Tell me, what events led to the battle of Badr?

Oh no its not a judgement but a Observation, maybe my poor grip on English have you believe that its a judgement, I know that Allah saves who he wills and destroy whoever he wills and its solely his judgment that everyone should worry about not mine , or any Cleric or a Educated Elite class Person.

Events that leads to Badr were different for both Muslims and Pagans, which side events you want me to tell you?

 

[RAMPAGE]

Thats a win win for Pakistan then
( but in your own time, outside this forum, spare a thought of what will happen to Afghans under taliban.)
Where is the Afghan Cricket team btw?

To think that the IEA rule in Afghanistan will rid Pakistan of Islamic militancy is to think very optimistically. Let there be no doubt: the Afghan Taliban and the Pakistani Taliban seek to implement, through violence, the same agenda - but in their respective countries. Both are guided, in what is and what is not permissible in the pursuit of their agenda, by the same sect and body of literature. The command on both sides has largely attended the same seminaries. Each considers the other a very close ally - both for their shared ideology and the war they collectively waged in Afghanistan against the NATO and government forces. Remember, contrary to accusations by Pakistanis against Americans of working with the TTP, it was America who kept wiping out TTP arch-leadership over the years: Baitullah Mehsud, Hakimullah Mehsud, and Mullah Fazlullah. The TTP has always been a Mehsud enterprise, and Baitullah Mehsud, who took over from Nek Muhammad, was attacking NATO forces well before the Lal Masjid episode: the event which led to open hostilities between the government and Pakistani Taliban. The Pakistani Taliban are not just an ally to the IEA, they are its closest, oldest ally.

 

[HAIDER]

Taliban asking all employees of the financial institutions and police officers back to work ... but people are scared. It will take a while for the dust to settle down. Taliban are more worried about having no resistance from anyone. But Karzai and Gulbateen the two traitors are in interim govt ...