Kabhi apni shakal dekhi hai?

[Gentle Typhoon]

Feel free to want the moon. Doesn't mean you're getting it.



Because we will lose it. Simple. The Kashmiris of valley will any given day choose Independence (first priority) and Pakistan (second priority) over India.

Why should India not play to her strengths?

We have what we want. Why should we take any more trouble just for the sake of the whims of a few million people?

Besides, the referendum, as talked about in the UN resolutions, doesn't give the Kashmiris the option for independence. Hence it would be futile to hold such a referendum.

I'm Punjabi and I dont need any propaganda links, I interact with Kashmiri's daily, they are not pro Pakistan, anti India people are in minority.

 

[Patrician]

I'm Punjabi and I dont need any propaganda links, I interact with Kashmiri's daily, they are not pro Pakistan, anti India people are in minority.

Wrost case scenario.

Let us assume alll of them are.

Now why should we not play to our strengths?

 

[Mav3rick]

You don't get the point, do you?

I said we do not consider ourselves to be oppressors.

There's not even an iota of so much as a sense of guilt.

That is just sad dude, I mean literally it is sad that you have no guilt over your illegal occupation and years of bloody oppression.

 

[Patrician]

That is just sad dude, I mean literally it is sad that you have no guilt over your illegal occupation and years of bloody oppression.

Sad or not, nobody cares on this side of the border and that's the point.

You have not gotten used to this simple fact even after 63 years.

You have ruined your country for nothing.

 

[aakash_2410]

I agree. Crap article. Bloke seems to fancy himself a bit. Kashmiris deserve self determination even if they choose not to be independant. India violates there basic human rights and we will stand by them.

Cut to the chase hes asking us to forget kashmir. dont sound like any pakistani I know. Sounds more like an indian/american/ israeli suggestion.

Really? Why do you think Kashmir issue is not even one hundredth as famous as Palestinian issue in the Muslim world?

Because the world knows it's India-Pakistan no one cares about local Kashmiris unfortunately.

and If Pakistanis cared so much about Kashmiris why don't you give independence Pak occupied Kashmir? OR Azad Kahmir? It isn't 'Azad' for sh*t. It doesn't even have half as much autonomy as Hong Kong and Macau in China.

Referendum is out of the question. Here's why:

'United Nations Security Council Resolution 47 cannot be implemented since Pakistan failed to withdraw its forces from Kashmir, which was the first step in implementing the resolution. India is also of the view that Resolution 47 is obsolete, since the geography and demographics of the region have been permanently altered.'

 

[Pride]

Pak talks about Kashmir but then they are on grabbing here. Gilgit Baltistan area is openly a part of Pakistan now while it was part of princely state. Pakistanis openly open a thread in PDF titled "Mirpur: Pakistan's Beverley Hills" and then say it is "Azad Kashmir' but when we talk about Jammu/Leh/Srinagar suddenly that becomes territorial dispute. Hypocrisy.. isn't it?

Interestingly, Azad Kashmir's President has to take oath for serving towards Pakistan but then they get angry when he says "Kabhi Apni Shakl dekhi hai?".

 

[Pride]

That is just sad dude, I mean literally it is sad that you have no guilt over your illegal occupation and years of bloody oppression.

We are really Sad that we cant save our folks in '48 when you send a Tribal army who killed and raped Kashmiris. We are sad when when you started sending Lashkars in late 80s and we could not save migration of kashmiri Pandits. We are sad that you send so called "Freedom fighters" who kill innocent Kashmiris. We are sad that You allowed all Pakistanis to migrate to Mirpur and still talk about referendum. yes we are really very sad.

 

[T90TankGuy]

a beautifully written article . of course as an indian i will take the view of the author . but he does touch a cord of truth by the response i have seen in this thread.

 

[forcetrip]

Pak talks about Kashmir but then they are on grabbing here. Gilgit Baltistan area is openly a part of Pakistan now while it was part of princely state. Pakistanis openly open a thread in PDF titled "Mirpur: Pakistan's Beverley Hills" and then say it is "Azad Kashmir' but when we talk about Jammu/Leh/Srinagar suddenly that becomes territorial dispute. Hypocrisy.. isn't it?

Interestingly, Azad Kashmir's President has to take oath for serving towards Pakistan but then they get angry when he says "Kabhi Apni Shakl dekhi hai?".

That is because this is "OUR" forum. A Pakistani one. You are invited here to see "OUR" point of view. You can bring your discussions to some learned people as to why history has brought us to this dispute. I having both sides of my family from Srinagar have some insight to the problem. Dictating to me on my countries website will not just wash away the problem. Also arguing that a very low minority want their freedom in the state of kashmir is also deluding yourself. It is a geo political war which we tried quite a few times to "force" in our favor. That did not happen. Now it is time to settle this some other way instead of by force. If you do not agree with these statements there are multiple other website that actually encourage Pakistan bashing. I suggest you try those first.

 

[forcetrip]

So you are a kashmiri but you are not answering his question why gilgit baltistan is not part of azad kashmir but is a seperate province

Autonomous status. Is that not what the people of Gilgit Baltistan want? If they want something else is there a huge army subduing their freedom of speech? Have you been to any of the aforementioned areas?

 

[mr42O]

Pakistan will never be in a position to get Kashmir. I can assure you of that.

Q- Why?

A - Because there is not a single damn thing in the world that Pakistan can do and India cannot.

What will happen if India does not do as UN reolution saying is one day both countries will be histroy in 15 30mins since both will nuke each other. One and only hindu country will be history and there will be still many muslim countries. Taliban will have open road to India which India looking as enemy and will take over all India. So decide what u wana to find a peace full solution ? Are die as only one hindu country.



http://middleeast.about.com/od/pakistan/qt/Kashmir-UN-Resolution.htm
Pakistan was carved out of India in 1947 as the Muslim counterweight to India's Hindu population. Predominantly Muslim Kashmir to the north of both countries was divided between them, with India dominating two-thirds of the region and Pakistan one third. A Muslim-led revolt against the Hindu ruler triggered a build-up of Indian troops and an attempt by India to annex the whole in 1948, provoking a war with Pakistan, which sent troops and Pashtun tribesmen to the region. A UN commission called for the withdrawal of both countries' troops in August 1948. The United Nations brokered a cease-fire in 1949, and a five-member commission made up of Argentina, Belgium, Columbia, Czechoslovakia and the United States drew up a resolution calling for a referendum to decide Kashmir's future. The full text of the resolution, which India never allowed to be implemented, follows.

Resolution of the Commission of January 5, 1949

The United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan, Having received from the Governments of India and Pakistan, in communications dated 23 December and 25 December 1948, respectively, their acceptance of the following principles which are supplementary to the Commission's Resolution of 13 August 1948:

1. The question of the accession of the State of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan will be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite;

2. A plebiscite will be held when it shall be found by the Commission that the cease-fire and truce arrangements set forth in Parts I and II of the Commission's resolution of 13 August 1948 have been carried out and arrangements for the plebiscite have been completed;

3.
(a) The Secretary-General of the United Nations will, in agreement with the Commission, nominate a Plebiscite Administrator who shall be a personality of high international standing and commanding general confidence. He will be formally appointed to office by the Government of Jammu and Kashmir.

(b) The Plebiscite Administrator shall derive from the State of Jammu and Kashmir the powers he considers necessary for organizing and conducting the plebiscite and for ensuring the freedom and impartiality of the plebiscite.

(c) The Plebiscite Administrator shall have authority to appoint such staff of assistants and observes as he may require.

4.
(a) After implementation of Parts I and II of the Commission's resolution of 13 August 1948, and when the Commission is satisfied that peaceful conditions have been restored in the State, the Commission and the Plebiscite Administrator will determine, in consultation with the Government of India, the final disposal of Indian and State armed forces, such disposal to be with due regard to the security of the State and the freedom of the plebiscite.

(b) As regards the territory referred to in A.2 of Part II of the resolution of 13 August, final disposal of the armed forces in that territory will be determined by the Commission and the Plebiscite Administrator in consultation with the local authorities.

5. All civil and military authorities within the State and the principal political elements of the State will be required to co-operate with the Plebiscite Administrator in the preparation for the holding of the plebiscite.

6.
(a) All citizens of the State who have left it on account of the disturbances will be invited and be free to return and to exercise all their rights as such citizens. For the purpose of facilitating repatriation there shall be appointed two Commissions, one composed of nominees of India and the other of nominees of Pakistan. The Commission shall operate under the direction of the Plebiscite Administrator. The Governments of India and Pakistan and all authorities within the State of Jammu and Kashmir will collaborate with the Plebiscite Administrator in putting this provision into effect.

(b) All person (other than citizens of the State) who on or since 15 August 1947 have entered it for other than lawful purpose, shall be required to leave the State.

7. All authorities within the State of Jammu and Kashmir will undertake to ensure, in collaboration with the Plebiscite Administrator, that:

(a) There is no threat, coercion or intimidation, bribery or other undue influence on the voters in the plebiscite;

(b) No restrictions are placed on legitimate political activity throughout the State. All subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste or party, shall be safe and free in expressing their views and in voting on the question of the accession of the State to India or Pakistan. There shall be freedom of the press, speech and assembly and freedom of travel in the State, including freedom of lawful entry and exit;

(c) All political prisoners are released;

(d) Minorities in all parts of the State are accorded adequate protection; and

(e) There is no victimization.

8. The Plebiscite Administrator may refer to the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan problems on which he may require assistance, and the Commission may in its discretion call upon the Plebiscite Administrator to carry out on its behalf any of the responsibilities with which it has been entrusted;

9. At the conclusion of the plebiscite, the Plebiscite Administrator shall report the result thereof to the Commission and to the Government of Jammu and Kashmir. The Commission shall then certify to the Security Council whether the plebiscite has or has not been free and impartial;

10. Upon the signature of the truce agreement the details of the foregoing proposals will be elaborated in the consultations envisaged in Part III of the Commission's resolution of 13 August 1948. The Plebiscite Administrator will be fully associated in these consultations;

Commends the Governments of India and Pakistan for their prompt action in ordering a cease-fire to take effect from one minute before midnight of 1 January 1949, pursuant to the agreement arrived at as provided for by the Commission's Resolution of 13 August 1948; and

Resolves to return in the immediate future to the Sub-continent to discharge the responsibilities imposed upon it by the Resolution of 13 August 1948 and by the foregoing principles.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Autonomous status. Is that not what the people of Gilgit Baltistan want? If they want something else is there a huge army subduing their freedom of speech? Have you been to any of the aforementioned areas?

The elected representatives of the 'self governing' 'Azad Kashmir' have to take an oath of allegiance to the cause of accession of Kashmir to Pakistan.

Besides, the number of Kashmiri leaders who did not tow this line and murdered (by pakistani punjabi merceneries)for that is long (I know you probably will not believe this). We in India know that there is absolutely no issue of morality involved here. Besides, morality of 'self determination' BUT with the caveat of 'disputed territory' is itself a farce.

 

[Pride]

That is because this is "OUR" forum. A Pakistani one. You are invited here to see "OUR" point of view. You can bring your discussions to some learned people as to why history has brought us to this dispute. I having both sides of my family from Srinagar have some insight to the problem. Dictating to me on my countries website will not just wash away the problem. Also arguing that a very low minority want their freedom in the state of kashmir is also deluding yourself. It is a geo political war which we tried quite a few times to "force" in our favor. That did not happen. Now it is time to settle this some other way instead of by force. If you do not agree with these statements there are multiple other website that actually encourage Pakistan bashing. I suggest you try those first.

You need to revisit "YOUR" forum rules. It is open for all. Try "Force" as many times as you can do, You are cordially invited. You tried mutliple times and were failed, We tried a small attempt in 80s and got handful of Siachin.

"Your" forum doesn't give you a chance of being ill-logical or Delusional. If you want to carry on but then it simplifies that you dont care about people on either side. Regarding minority people, you need to revisit the Poll conducted there few years ago. Just to enlighten you, Jammu wants to be part of India and Laddakh as well. There are Shia majority areas which also want to remain with India. Then there comes sunni majority areas like Srinagar, Baramulla, Anantnag etc which is run by ISI backed agents.

 

[forcetrip]

The elected representatives of the 'self governing' 'Azad Kashmir' have to take an oath of allegiance to the cause of accession of Kashmir to Pakistan.

Besides, the number of Kashmiri leaders who did not tow this line and murdered (by pakistani punjabi merceneries)for that is long (I know you probably will not believe this). We in India know that there is absolutely no issue of morality involved here. Besides, morality of 'self determination' BUT with the caveat of 'disputed territory' is itself a farce.

I might be the ignorant one who is blind to history. Would you like to take a trip to the areas mentioned? I would not dare question your beliefs about what happened in the past with Punjabi assassins and such, but lets take a trip to both areas today so we can have hands on assessments of the questioned areas.

 

[Pride]

Autonomous status. Is that not what the people of Gilgit Baltistan want? If they want something else is there a huge army subduing their freedom of speech? Have you been to any of the aforementioned areas?

Really?? Read this article -

GILGIT: The arbitrary arrest of Gilgit-Baltistan United Movement (GBUM) Chairman Manzoor Hussain Parwana in Gilgit city the other day has drawn widespread condemnation from political forces and civil society from the region and abroad.

The GBUM chief was detained during a concerted operation of Pakistan’s law enforcement, agencies including the Rangers, Khyber Rifles and secret service personnel on July 28 when he had just finished addressing the annual convention of Balawaristan National Students Organization (BNSO) in Gilgit. Later, he was shifted to an unknown place by the secret service personnel for interrogation.
According to the FIR, he was arrested for expressing support to the
refugees of Ladakh in Gilgit-Baltistan who demand opening of the line
of control; demanding reinstatement of State Subject Rule in the
region, withdrawal of Pakistani security forces from the region and ensuring basic human rights for the occupied nation of Gilgit-Baltistan.
In their separate statements, Advocate Ehsan Ali, President of Gilgit-Baltistan Bar Association, Engineer Amanullah, Chairman of Gilgit-Baltistan Democratic Alliance, Safdar Ali, President of Balawaristan National Front, Ghulam Shehzad Agha, General Secretary of GBUM, Babajan Hunzai, Coordinator of Progressive Youth Front, and Tauseef Hassan, President of BNSO strongly condemned the arrest and termed it an attack on freedom of expression and political activity and illegal interference of Pakistani security forces in a UN-declared disputed region.

They stated that his arrest was an effort of Pakistani occupying forces to promote state-led terrorism in Gilgit-Baltistan; derail India-Pakistan peace process and defame the nationalist forces, which demand complete withdrawal of occupying forces from their land.
Safdar Ali stated that Manzoor had been charged under section 123A,
124A and 153A of Pakistan penal code, which is an immoral and illegal
act of the law enforcement agencies since these sections do not apply
to the permanent residents of a disputed territory lying outside
the constitutional boundary of Pakistan. Pakistan is a signatory to
the resolutions passed by the United Nations Commission on India and
Pakistan assuring withdraw of her forces and citizens from
Gilgit-Baltistan and other parts of Kashmir. However, it has continued
military escalation, amassing more than forty thousand personnel in
the region, which is a clear violation of international laws.
Baba Jan Hunzai demanded release of all political prisoners of
Gilgit-Baltistan and an end to apartheid in South Asia. Similar
appeals have come from political activists of Kargil district in Indian
Ladakh, requesting opening of the line of control and reunification of
Gilgit-Baltistan with the rest of Ladakh.
In his press release, Ghulam Shehzad Agha said: “Detention of
political activists continues in Pakistan and its occupied regions
despite assurances of the prime minister to the international
community of upholding democracy and freedom of political activity and
expression. People of Gilgit-Baltistan cannot be booked for treason
since they are not citizens of Pakistan. If supporting the refugees of
Ladakh to promote their birth right of free travel, and socio-economic
activity is a crime, then GBUM will continue to commit it. GBUM will
support rally of the Ladakhi refugees towards the line of control even
after the arrest of Manzoor Parwana.” Agha also condemned Pakistani
establishment for awarding illegal mining licenses to the Chinese
companies, who have their eyes set on uranium rich mineral deposits of
Gilgit-Baltistan.
Manzoor is currently fighting a sedition case for criticizing Pakistani military for their misgivings during the Kargil War of 1999.
His publication called Kargil International Magazine was also banned
during the same time for exposing military crimes. He remains vocal
demanding freedom for Gilgit Baltistan which remains in Pakistani
occupation since 1947.
The Gilgit Baltistan National Congress (GBNC), Washington, also condemned ‘abduction’ of Manzoor Parwana. Senge Sering of the GBNC requested international human rights organizations including Freedom House, Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International to take immediate action in this regard. GBNC also requests the United Nations, American Congress, the European Parliament and Saarc to take immediate notice of the failing human rights situation in occupied Gilgit Baltistan.
GBNC calls for demilitarization of Gilgit-Baltistan, promotion of
genuine autonomy and democracy, withdrawal of extremist elements,
re-instatement of state subject rule and people to people contact
between Ladakh and Gilgit-Baltistan. It asks the United Nations to
play its role in empowering local political institutions and ensuring
freedom of expression and political activity.
The Gilgit-Baltistan Labour Party and Progressive Youth Front also strongly condemned the arrest of Mr Parwana and termed it a fascist action of government and intelligence agencies. It is the worst type of human rights violation. The so-called puppet Chief Minister Mehdi Shah and his toothless government was even not aware of this barbaric action of state forces against nationalist political workers of Gilgit-Baltistan.
The only reason behind this state terrorism is just to suppress nationalist and revolutionary movement in GB. We appeal to the oppressed people of GB to come forward and accelerate their struggle against the pro-imperialist and pro-capitalist corrupt rulers and capitalist system.

http://k4kashmir.com/?p=4719