Jinnah’s August 11 speech wasn’t about a secular Pakistan

[Shackleford]

Actually you haven't shown anything except that secular societies give freedom of religion to Muslims.

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!!!

There you go!
that is the whole point!
You finally got it!!!!
Secularism is NOT anti Islam.
You are free to be any kind of Muslim you want to be in secular societies.

I have met so many Imams in Canada who praise Canadian secularism day and night for how it lets them practice Islam as freely as they want.

No Mullah mob is going to beat you up for not wearing the right colour turban or stop you from giving duah at a grave site.

Freedom to be the best Muslim in the truest sense of the word!

Aur wohi log agar wapis akar economy main help karaty to aj yeh halat na hotay. They accept living in foreign lands and work under them. Why? If you despise them so much, come back to your own country and help build here.

More importantly, so many Pakistanis have made a lot of money in the west that they can easily move back to Pakistan, build a mansion and never work a day for the rest of their lives.
But they choose to grind out a middle class existence in the kafir west. Why?
Could it be that the freedom of being a Muslim there is better then any theocracy back home?!?!

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

The funniest part of this is that most people who oppose "secular" don't even know what it means.

Here are some amazing mosques in "EVIL GODLESS, SECULAR CANADA"

Baitun Nur Mosque - Calgary

Baitul Islam Mosque - near Toronto

Ottawa Muslim Association

Here is Halal meat being sold in Evil Secular Walmart (in Canada)

Here is evil secular libtard Toronto airport having a multi faith room where you can pray
https://www.torontopearson.com/en/w...rport-services/prayer-room-t1-before-arrivals

I could go on for days, but people here are more interesting in forcing their nonsense beliefs onto others then to think clearly and logically.


A question for Pakistanis
If secularism is so evil, then why are so many of you guys trying to move to secular Canada?

https://www.cicnews.com/2020/06/exp...ed-permanent-residence-0614879.html#gs.bc5clq

"Most people who received an invitation were already in Canada. Of all foreign countries India was the most common place to be issued ITAs, then the United States., Nigeria, United Arab Emirates, and Pakistan."

A question for Pakistanis
If secularism is so evil, then why are so many of you guys trying to move to secular Canada?
its a good question but as a muslim we have obligation and rules zina is haram which allow in western world how about drinking and stuff we as muslim condemn gayism but they allow this is secular which we cant do as muslim i hope you check what it says in books islam 101 instead of following irshad manji.

 

[Iltutmish]

You are right, they go there for economic reasons, but what is stopping them from going back?

The same economic reasons you mentioned before. Even if Expat Pakistanis would come back and start businesses, Pakistan is not the best place on earth for that.

https://www.doingbusiness.org/en/rankings

Next thing is that our family system is corrupt and ungrateful. If a West Pakistani comes back he will have to provide for his 200 cousins 48 aunties and 56 uncles in order to live "peacefulyl". You know our people.

Aur wohi log agar wapis akar economy main help karaty to aj yeh halat na hotay. They accept living in foreign lands and work under them. Why? If you despise them so much, come back to your own country and help build here.

I know a German expat who worked for a German company in Bangkok for 15 years. He didn't become Buddhist neither he loved the Thai King. Why? I lived my whole life in Germany and never touched alcohol, does this mean I despise all the Germans? We were still raised as Muslims. That's a difference.

Could it be that the freedom of being a Muslim there is better then any theocracy back home?!?!

There is a famous quote from Iqbal regarding a similiar topic:

But I agree with you to some extent a full theocracy is not the way Islam described to us. Islam relies on our SELF-POLICING if a green turban Mullah has the right to check the lenght of your beard you will know that this society is degenerated.

BUT Islam describes SOME rules for our laws and state and we should respect that. I agree with you that Pakistan has severe problems regarding rule of law, toxic famiy traditions, economy and so on and so forth. But this is not due to Islam. It's our own corrouption in society that paralyzes us. This is the reason why most Pakistani would leave immediately if a fancy Euro embassy would grant them a Schengen visa.

If secularism is so evil, then why are so many of you guys trying to move to secular Canada?

Is the Islam in Qatar better than in Pakistan or are you also there for economic reasons?

 

[Shackleford]

A question for Pakistanis
If secularism is so evil, then why are so many of you guys trying to move to secular Canada?
its a good question but as a muslim we have obligation and rules zina is haram which allow in western world how about drinking and stuff we as muslim condemn gayism but they allow this is secular which we cant do as muslim i hope you check what it says in books islam 101 instead of following irshad manji.

I respect your opinion but that still does not address my question.

The beauty of secularism is that you can live the most pious or unpious life you want. No one is going to force.

Why is that a bad thing?
If someone does not want to live a religious life, why does it matter to you?
Serious question.
Why/how does a person not living a pious life affect you? Why do you care?

Is the Islam in Qatar better than in Pakistan or are you also there for economic reasons?

10000000 MILLION BILLION percent I went to qatar for economic reasons.

The fastest way to become an atheist is to deal with Khaliji people and their society.

 

[Iltutmish]

10000000 MILLION BILLION percent I went to qatar for economic reasons.

The fastest way to become an atheist is to deal with Khaliji people and their society.

I know what you mean... you are not the first one who said that to me. May Allah guide us all and protect us.

 

[Apprentice]

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!!!

There you go!
that is the whole point!
You finally got it!!!!
Secularism is NOT anti Islam.
You are free to be any kind of Muslim you want to be in secular societies.

I have met so many Imams in Canada who praise Canadian secularism day and night for how it lets them practice Islam as freely as they want.

No Mullah mob is going to beat you up for not wearing the right colour turban or stop you from giving duah at a grave site.

Freedom to be the best Muslim in the truest sense of the word!

Islam has rules for all aspects of life, including politics and economics. Do secular states collect Zakat and Ushr? Its because Pakistan is an Islamic Republic that the government has a duty to collect and distributes zakat and ushr. Do secular states have Islamic criminal laws? In Pakistan we have Hudood laws (with high Islamic evidentiary standards which make them difficult to apply at the same time). This is only possible because we are an Islamic republic, we acknowledge the sole sovereignty of Allah and because our Constitution says all laws have to conform with the Quran and Sunnah.

 

[Shackleford]

Islam has rules for all aspects of life, including politics and economics. Do secular states collect Zakat and Ushr? Its because Pakistan is an Islamic Republic that the government has a duty to collect and distributes zakat and ushr. Do secular states have Islamic criminal laws? In Pakistan we have Hudood laws (with high Islamic evidentiary standards which make them difficult to apply at the same time). This is only possible because we are an Islamic republic, we acknowledge the sole sovereignty of Allah and because our Constitution says all laws have to conform with the Quran and Sunnah.

Okay, so lets change the topic since you seem to agree that Secularism is not anti Islamic.


Yes, Islam has all sorts of rules.
Rules against Forced Marriages
Rules against corruption (stealing)
Rules against Murder, Rape, etc etc etc
In fact, injustice is a huge crime in Islam.

Tell me, how does Pakistan score on all those things?
Is secularism stopping Pakistan from stopping those things?

What I am trying to say is that before trying to implement a theocracy, why don't you focus on just implementing normal laws?
Laws that are also in Sharia.
Once you get those laws being enforced, we can then come back and talk about making a theocracy.
Deal?

 

[Hiraa]

What type of help? Logon k bahir janay k 2 benefits Hain. 1 unemployment Kam hoti ha kyonki wo bahir chalay jatay Hain. 2 dollars wapas bhejtay hain jis sa Pakistan ka current account deficit kam hota ha.

start up business start karain to yahan ki bhi unemployment khatam hoti hai. Jis se revenue bartsa hai ya phir exports hoti hain.jissay aur paisa at hai.

Phir kehte hain pakistan brain dead kyun hai. Saray parhay likhe bahir chale jate hain aur wahan jakar chilate hain kay pakistan jahilon kay pass kyun hai.

Islam has rules for all aspects of life, including politics and economics. Do secular states collect Zakat and Ushr? Its because Pakistan is an Islamic Republic that the government has a duty to collect and distributes zakat and ushr. Do secular states have Islamic criminal laws? In Pakistan we have Hudood laws (with high Islamic evidentiary standards which make them difficult to apply at the same time). This is only possible because we are an Islamic republic, we acknowledge the sole sovereignty of Allah and because our Constitution says all laws have to conform with the Quran and Sunnah.

Yes yes,bilkul, pakistan is the land of law. Absolute finiest.

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

The same economic reasons you mentioned before. Even if Expat Pakistanis would come back and start businesses, Pakistan is not the best place on earth for that.

https://www.doingbusiness.org/en/rankings

Next thing is that our family system is corrupt and ungrateful. If a West Pakistani comes back he will have to provide for his 200 cousins 48 aunties and 56 uncles in order to live "peacefulyl". You know our people.


I know a German expat who worked for a German company in Bangkok for 15 years. He didn't become Buddhist neither he loved the Thai King. Why? I lived my whole life in Germany and never touched alcohol, does this mean I despise all the Germans? We were still raised as Muslims. That's a difference.


There is a famous quote from Iqbal regarding a similiar topic:

But I agree with you to some extent a full theocracy is not the way Islam described to us. Islam relies on our SELF-POLICING if a green turban Mullah has the right to check the lenght of your beard you will know that this society is degenerated.

BUT Islam describes SOME rules for our laws and state and we should respect that. I agree with you that Pakistan has severe problems regarding rule of law, toxic famiy traditions, economy and so on and so forth. But this is not due to Islam. It's our own corrouption in society that paralyzes us. This is the reason why most Pakistani would leave immediately if a fancy Euro embassy would grant them a Schengen visa.


Is the Islam in Qatar better than in Pakistan or are you also there for economic reasons?

comparing economy with Deen two different thing... you are allowed to go out of your place to explore for halal rizq but not to be part of the society which directly or indirectly damaging your values.
you cant accept gayism and stay muslim unless. so Pakistan what ever it is it openly condemn which islam doesnt allow now its all depends on people.

 

[Apprentice]

Okay, so lets change the topic since you seem to agree that Secularism is not anti Islamic.

I am not saying that at all. Secularism is by definition a form of shirk because it rejects the legal authority and sovereignty of God

What I am trying to say is that before trying to implement a theocracy, why don't you focus on just implementing normal laws?
Laws that are also in Sharia.
Once you get those laws being enforced, we can then come back and talk about making a theocracy.
Deal?

Most laws already are normal laws. Religion only has given some laws. In other areas such as traffic rules, water conservation, ID cards etc one is free to make and apply any other laws as long as they do not contradict Islam. That is why Pakistani Constitution says that no law can be passed if it is against Islam.

The issue is of overriding ideology. To ensure that law-making does not contradict Islam, its essential to recognise sovereignty of God and reject the concept that a parliament is not bound by religion and God. In other words, Islam must have supremacy over the state in principle.

 

[Shackleford]

comparing economy with Deen two different thing... you are allowed to go out of your place to explore for halal rizq but not to be part of the society which directly or indirectly damaging your values.
you cant accept gayism and stay muslim unless. so Pakistan what ever it is it openly condemn which islam doesnt allow now its all depends on people.

So you are saying Muslims should go to the west, earn money, but never go to school, out to shop, eat, or do anything besides stay at home, locked up?

This is why a theocracy is such a silly idea.

If you want to live this life DO IT, no one stopping you.
But I sure as heck am not going to put myself in jail over your ideals.
That is not my Islam.

I am not saying that at all. Secularism is by definition a form of shirk because it rejects the legal authority and sovereignty of God

You have made this claim now you have to prove it.
otherwise we are all free to ignore it

Most laws already are normal laws. Religion only has given some laws. In other areas such as traffic rules, water conservation, ID cards etc one is free to make and apply any other laws as long as they do not contradict Islam. That is why Pakistani Constitution says that no law can be passed if it is against Islam.

The issue is of overriding ideology. To ensure that law-making does not contradict Islam, its essential to recognise sovereignty of God and reject the concept that a parliament is not bound by religion and God. In other words, Islam must have supremacy over the state in principle.

BUT TRAFFIC LAWS ARE NOT IN SHARIA AND THEREFORE SHIRK!!!
We are not allowed to have any other laws outside of Sharia

See how fast this becomes silly?
Legit you will have mullahs claiming this and then what?
You will start having mullah fights which will lead to bloodshed and more
Mullahs have fought over much less, you don't think they will start fighting over such ridiculous things?

I can give you examples for days.
How about gender segregation?
will he have to have two elevators in every building, one for men and one for women?
Men only subways, women only subways?
Men only flights, women only flights?

This might seem silly but this is legit the implications of theocratic laws.
You don't seem to understand how deep this will go .

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

i dont get you or you are not making sense you cant chose 2 extreme either this or that it has to be balance but when it comes to deen where you have to sacrifies your deen you sud be smart enough to chose for example would you eat pork or stay hungry obviously you will find fish or halal place right what you showing to us that west is the best and muslim countries are bad specially for you Pak suppose to be secular they why did we get out of subcontinent on first place.
we have history but its been only 70 years since we got this young nation usa still young and its been 300 years to it.. we also need some time to be what we wanna be insha'Allah day will come or we die trying.

 

[Lincoln]

i dont get you or you are not making sense you cant chose 2 extreme either this or that it has to be balance but when it comes to deen where you have to sacrifies your deen you sud be smart enough to chose for example would you eat pork or stay hungry obviously you will find fish or halal place right what you showing to us that west is the best and muslim countries are bad specially for you Pak suppose to be secular they why did we get out of subcontinent on first place.
we have history but its been only 70 years since we got this young nation usa still young and its been 300 years to it.. we also need some time to be what we wanna be insha'Allah day will come or we die trying.

This is a different day and age. If there's any country to which Pakistan should be compared, it is Germany, because these two had similar quantity of financial assets in 1947. Infact, Germany was probably in a worse condition due to the world war, and new restrictions on it.

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

This is true Pakistan cud have been leader in many ways and its not what it suppose to be but it happen cuz we wanted Islamic system which we were also fail along with many other things but Insha'Allah it will become best islamic state.