Jinnah didn't know how to write or read Urdu

[Imtiaz_Sarwar]

My question was a linguistic query. I conjectured that their are no expletives in Urdu language. I was discussing a characteristic of a language. I was examining this aspect with a scientific eye. Thats whats done in intellectual circles. They observe and discuss anything and everything to understand this world better. Well educated people are oriented this way. i.e studying everything without any regards for taboos. If you were better educated you wouldve never raised this objection.

Now that you have given your point of view clearly, I guess the matter is settled.

 

[Jaggu]

Do regional language have any official status in the Pakistani states as it does in Indian states?

Gandhi was instrumental in getting hindi as the national language and Jinnah did the same for urdu as lingua fanca. If Pakistan had to choose Punjabi as a national language, there would have been chaos, i believe. I have nothing against punjabi but formal punjabi sounds so aweful.

Punjabi is a beautiful language with a historic literature. It is much older than Hindi and Urdu which ended up becoming the official languages of the sub continent.

Pakistan would have been decades ahead if we had adopted English as our National Language. I am a native speaker of Urdu language but I believe learning English on a national level would have given us huge advantage in Science and Technology.

This is what happened in South India, today all the foreign companies prefer to move down south and create jobs instead of North India

 

[Razia Sultana]

Punjabi is a beautiful language with a historic literature. It is much older than Hindi and Urdu which ended up becoming the official languages of the sub continent.

I have no doubts about it. Punjabi is a very vibrant language and its wonderful in colloquial form than in formal news reading style. thats a personal opinion without any disrespect to the language. I tried to learn this language when I lived in Amritsar for a brief period.

 

[rubyjackass]

Well, the points you have raised to rebut my argument are exactly the factors that I believe shaped Jinnah's personality, and why I think Cabinet Mission plan was the best plan. Jinnah (and Muslims of India) were always apprehensive of Nehru's honesty and he raised this issue with the Cabinet Mission; yet he agreed to accept the plan provided Congress accepts it. Well, the then president of Congress, Abul Kalaam Azad, accepted the plan but his tenure as president was ending. It was during the visit of Cabinet Mission and while the negotiations were being done that Congress elected Nehru as its new president replacing Azad. Right after he was elected, he responded to a journalist's question regarding Congress's acceptance of the Plan by saying that "das saal kay baad kis nay dekha hay keh kia ho ga"! Since Nehru's statement clearly exposed his hidden intentions and motive in this regard, Jinnah immediately revoked his acceptance of the Plan which proved to be the last nail in the Cabinet Mission's coffin.

I don't know what your sources are but this story is false. The fact is no politician of the time cared for Jinnah's honesty. If Jinnah was honest, there would not be so much confusion among Pakistanis as to what their country was meant to be. Jinnah was a politician arguing for his constituency and he was seen as just that. A communal based argument trying to take away as much territory as possible from an envisioned secular state will only get the logical response. And that is why he got what he got as Pakistan.

Jinnah doubting Nehru's honesty is a ruse. History has shown Nehru as the one who tried to get things done softly while Jinnah ordered an invasion of J&K. What you might have meant is that Nehru wanted a single Constituent Assembly to be sovereign which means it can decide how India will be, while what Jinnah wanted was there to be two Constituent Assemblies each making constitutions for a part. The worst part of this is that Jinnah wanted an option of seccession for any of the parts to be expired within 5 years. Yeah sure, Pakistan could have Punjab, Bengal, Delhi as joint capital and what if it secedes within 5 years?! Did Congressmen look like idiots for Jinnah? So naturally Jinnah got a combination of what he wanted and deserved in the end. The only thing is that he bet on the intent of Congress to keep unity is too strong like that of the child's mother in King Solomon's stories. The Congress finally got over its mind block and gave it to Jinnah.

So Jinnah's revokation of the Cabinet Mission Plan is definitely not because of a presser from Nehru but only because of a detailed outline of Congress's stand on the Mission's plan. Cabinet Mission Plan was a cake that Jinnah would have eaten thrice over. It was so delicious for him. Only thing that happened was that Congress, thank God for their brains, realized that the plan was cr*p and saner voices like C. Rajagopalachari's prevailed. Besides you are wrong when you said Azad accepted the plan and Nehru aborted it. Congress was a very representative organization and people often attacked each other in their meetings over issues unlike Jinnah's rubber stamp Working Committee. So Azad was not a dictator neither was Nehru. What Azad agreed to was only to try negotiate on the basis of a grouping of Hindu and Muslim provinces.

You can read Ayesha Jalal's book for confirmation of the above story. Jinnah wanted an outright Pakistan or a very weak worthless centre with a Pakistan and Hindustan. Just giving a stupid alternative for partition does not make Jinnah a dreamer of Indian unity. At best he overplayed his cards and the fault is not Nehru's or Congress's.

Your argument is totally based on Indian, or for that matter Hindu, perspective, and absolutely doesn't fit in the Pakistani perspective. Sir Sayyed Ahmed Khan said this in 1885 that Hindus and Muslims of India could never be one nation because we see things totally from opposite perspectives, and your argument proves his point once again. Making Urdu the only national language of Pakistan was a shortsightedness and Jinnah never was interested to stick with it. He was very sick and practically didn't have enough energy to participate in the governmental affairs. The problem with Muslim League's leadership was that they didn't have a post-partition plan to convert a movement into an organized political party that is eligible to run a state, and feudals had a free hand in post partition political debacles and Bengalis were considered outsiders and aliens the the power corridors. Godspeed Pakistan

Please enough with the theory. It is very simple logic and if you cannot see what is obvious, I cannot help. I did not argue on whether Jinnah personally made Urdu the national language. What I saw was Cheetah calling Bengal as a vestigial part taken on board by the Qaed. That is completely false. Jinnah wanted Bengal, in fact all of it. Otherwise he would be dishonest according to your own logic.

Urdu was made the national language(not even just official language) under his watch. Jinnah does bear responsibility for the act. You should provide some proof that Jinnah was 'not interested' to stick with it. All indications are that nobody in Pakistan would have rejected Jinnah's interest.

 

[MohammadHaqueCA]

I don't know what your sources are but this story is false. The fact is no politician of the time cared for Jinnah's honesty. If Jinnah was honest, there would not be so much confusion among Pakistanis as to what their country was meant to be. Jinnah was a politician arguing for his constituency and he was seen as just that. A communal based argument trying to take away as much territory as possible from an envisioned secular state will only get the logical response. And that is why he got what he got as Pakistan.

Jinnah doubting Nehru's honesty is a ruse. History has shown Nehru as the one who tried to get things done softly while Jinnah ordered an invasion of J&K. What you might have meant is that Nehru wanted a single Constituent Assembly to be sovereign which means it can decide how India will be, while what Jinnah wanted was there to be two Constituent Assemblies each making constitutions for a part. The worst part of this is that Jinnah wanted an option of seccession for any of the parts to be expired within 5 years. Yeah sure, Pakistan could have Punjab, Bengal, Delhi as joint capital and what if it secedes within 5 years?! Did Congressmen look like idiots for Jinnah? So naturally Jinnah got a combination of what he wanted and deserved in the end. The only thing is that he bet on the intent of Congress to keep unity is too strong like that of the child's mother in King Solomon's stories. The Congress finally got over its mind block and gave it to Jinnah.

So Jinnah's revokation of the Cabinet Mission Plan is definitely not because of a presser from Nehru but only because of a detailed outline of Congress's stand on the Mission's plan. Cabinet Mission Plan was a cake that Jinnah would have eaten thrice over. It was so delicious for him. Only thing that happened was that Congress, thank God for their brains, realized that the plan was cr*p and saner voices like C. Rajagopalachari's prevailed. Besides you are wrong when you said Azad accepted the plan and Nehru aborted it. Congress was a very representative organization and people often attacked each other in their meetings over issues unlike Jinnah's rubber stamp Working Committee. So Azad was not a dictator neither was Nehru. What Azad agreed to was only to try negotiate on the basis of a grouping of Hindu and Muslim provinces.

You can read Ayesha Jalal's book for confirmation of the above story. Jinnah wanted an outright Pakistan or a very weak worthless centre with a Pakistan and Hindustan. Just giving a stupid alternative for partition does not make Jinnah a dreamer of Indian unity. At best he overplayed his cards and the fault is not Nehru's or Congress's.


Please enough with the theory. It is very simple logic and if you cannot see what is obvious, I cannot help. I did not argue on whether Jinnah personally made Urdu the national language. What I saw was Cheetah calling Bengal as a vestigial part taken on board by the Qaed. That is completely false. Jinnah wanted Bengal, in fact all of it. Otherwise he would be dishonest according to your own logic.

Urdu was made the national language(not even just official language) under his watch. Jinnah does bear responsibility for the act. You should provide some proof that Jinnah was 'not interested' to stick with it. All indications are that nobody in Pakistan would have rejected Jinnah's interest.

Read Jaswant Singh and Dr. Lawrence Ziring, and listen to Advani! and other Millions of books that you people in India don't read!

 

[rubyjackass]

Read Jaswant Singh and Dr. Lawrence Ziring, and listen to Advani! and other Millions of books that you people in India don't read!

What Jaswant Singh and Advani harp(not so anymore) about is only that Jinnah wanted united India. They do not mention the price India would have paid for such a unity. As I mentioned, Ayesha Jalal gives details of who wanted what or rather who negotiated what. It gives an extremely wobbly union, with a parity between Muslims and Hindus in India. Why should there be parity if you consider everyone equal(something which Jinnah awkwardly said he believed, as per his Constituent Assembly speech)?

Those men have vested interests against Nehru, and if you go by theories like Nehru should have first accepted unity and later strengthened the Centre, see Jinnah's demands. Jinnah wanted an option of secession. It would be plain stupidity to accept such a plan. Even if you want to argue that Jinnah meant it as a negotiating tactic, well such an honest man makes such a threat, you have to be careful and reduce your risk. That's what Congress did. It was simply impossible to make any change to the details of Cabinet Mission Plan later. Because the respective Constituent Assemblies could not make any decisions regarding the Centre except by mutual agreement. If any such changes was attempted forcibly, it would have led to a civil war. Jinnah talked routinely about civil war happening because of this or that basically blackmailing the British saying if you do not make solid guarantees for parity, all order in British India will fail. Nobody would want to put up with such blackmail.

It was a wonder that Congress, despite being a more representative body sat at the table even as Jinnah insisted that his party alone represented the Muslims of India. He had a problem with the Congress putting up their own Muslim members in government and in the negotiations. Nobody can cure such a condition. I would dare say, because of such dovishness, with too much eagerness for freedom, Congress entertained Jinnah's unreasonableness too long which led to his over confidence ultimately leading to a bad outcome. For too long, Jinnah was conditioned into thinking if we asked for 70 he would get 50. This was possible because of Congress's over-enthusiasm to get British out.

So I do blame Congress for the partition of India, but not because they did not come to agreement with Jinnah, like Jaswant Singh and Advani say. But because they capitulated to his unreasonable demands which led to him asking even more crazy pies. I haven't read Ziring. I will sometime soon. Thanks for the info.

The parity in question is what Pakistan is still after today. They want to be treated as a equal to India when they are not. They want the world to somehow come out and balance the power between India and Pakistan as if the world owes them and they are entitled.

 

[Porus]

Hardly any other writer has written it in more detail than Ziring that Jinnah had absolutely no idea what he wanted to do with his Pakistan after getting independence. I don't know why this guy is recommending Lawrence Ziring, Jinnah's lovers should only recommend Hector Bolitho.