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JFT Supercruise capability ?

Incorrect.. again..
The F-16 does that without a burner.
Also.. one of the earliest aircraft to exceed the speed of sound.. the Nord Gerfaut.. exceeded the sound barrier and stayed supersonic without the use of an afterburner.

The F-22 also has the ability to supercruise with its internal payload without using the afterburner to get supersonic.
Its weapon bay is capable of launching weapons at supersonic speed.. and the airframe is stressed to 9 g's.. regardless of the speed..and using TVC.. it can induce sharp turns at those speeds..although this is very much dependant on the pilots tolerance.

Learn to read!!*sigh*....it clearly states that "to get into" supercruse ,(not sustain it)..theres the difference.
no where have i mentioned sustained wet thrust.

ill reiterate the earlier point.

Super cruise can only be sustained in straight lines when the frictional threshold is passed ,once the plane decelerates it needs to reinitialize wet thrust..to reenter the Sc phase.

hence eliminating any stealth advantage.
and has no chance any A2A advantage whatsoever....its not about Pilots handling Gs ..its about the limited use of Sc in warfare scenarios ..and thats just bombing runs.

Actually "supercruise" is achieved w/o afterburners, so is easier on fuel than a typical jet reaching supersonic with afterburners.

i get it, im not denying it...but as i said only achievable in continuous straight line modes.
hence limited tactical viability.
Tht is my point.
 
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Supercruise needs larger engines,
And these engines have reduced fuel effeciency during normal operation..
Compare ferry and combat range if jf 17 and jas 39.
Thunder has an edge,because less powerful engines are more fuel efficient.
 
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I think that in order to get JFT to supercruise at mach 1.1 with A2A configuration we need to reduce the weight of the aircraft by using Composite materials and when fitted with a 100KTN Engine (Which is more powerful than F-414) i dont have any reason to believe that the JFT wont be able to do supercruise.

A powerful engine and reduced overall weight of the airframe would also Enable JFT to cross Mach-2.0 top speed and would give it great acceleration considering its design and Divertless supersonic intakes it makes sense to me.

Please share your opinion ??

Regards: Black Blood

Achieving genuine supersonic cruise capability hinges on two technological prerequisites:

The first is having a powerplant which develops enough dry thrust at altitude to offset supersonic airframe drag.

The second is having an airframe design built for low supersonic drag. Unless both conditions are met, supersonic cruise capability is not achievable.

Airframe/Weapons

The airframe issues dictate a wing design typically with 45 degrees or more of leading edge sweep, and suitable fuselage area ruling. Moreover, weapons must be carried internally or in a semi-conformal or conformal arrangement, to avoid a supersonic drag penalty. Pylon mounted missiles are not the preferred strategy.

Engine

A turbofan engine designed for supersonic cruise will be characterised by a much higher turbine inlet temperature than contemporary 'conventional' fighter engines. It is this operating cycle which permits the engine to sustain higher dry thrust ratings at high altitudes. This has also proven to be the primary obstacle to date in building supercruise engines, as it requires advanced materials and advanced turbine cooling techniques.

All this requires major conformal changes in not only to the engines but also the airframe.
 
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Both Rafale and typhoon can supercruise with external weapons,at expense of reduced range...
So its 'doable' with external weapon load..
But as you said,a plane and tge engine both have to be designed with supercruise in mind..
Jas 39's F414G engine has pressure ratio of 30:1, while thunder's RD-93 has 21:1.
But thunder us more fuel efficient at any given time except in afterburner..
Because F-414 has higher internal temperatures,means more air has to be 'bleeded' through turbine blades for cooling and that meand much of the fuel goes into wasted heat...
RD-93 has lower internal temperatures,less cooling requiewd and less fuel energy gies to waste heat...
Its same as V8 under you binnet will be more powerful and car will accelerate,but will consume miee fuel even when you are idling.
 
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People.
JFT had a specific purpose for its origin. A light weight B]economical [/U]4th generation fighter capable of delivering a variety of weapons designed for AFs needing to replace large numbers of its [B]older 3rd generation fighters[/B]. Our main adversary is next door to us and there is barely any distance between the two countries for it to matter for us whether it has supercruise or not.
A recent demonstration of the Typhoon which was fully laden turned it from a beautifully maneouverable plane into a brick, something that was commented on by a lot of the analysts at the time. So even planes which have a ratio in excess of I are like a brick once fully loaded, then why are we wishing for supercruise.
Start putting more powerful engines(3-5 million $ more), more composites(another 1-2 million $ more) and the costs will go up with very little benefit. As it is we are struggling to pay the cost of the current fleets replacement what are we going to do when the cost of each plane goes up by 5-7 million $. And more importantly, what Advantage does it give us? the name of the game is offloading your arsenal from a stand off distance and return to base and only get into WVR range as a last resort. I really see very little benefit in spending that much money per planewhen the rules of the game have changed.
In the post 2020 era it may be psooible for the later iterations of the plane to have the capability but at the moment it seems unnecessary.
My 2 cents worth. Enthusiasts may now carry on!!!
Araz
 
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Any news on WS-10G engine?
China has mastered the @Dark art@ of growing turbine blades from single crystal,that means more temperature and pressure endurance for the turbine blades in the combustion chamber and beyond..That means more heat and pressure inside the engine and that means higher speeds on exiting gases and more speed....Although only time will tell if the Chinese engine will give supercruise to JF-17 or not..
But their Production lines aren’t consistent at the moment,quality varies from engine to engine with some engines failing quality control...
 
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The only way the JFT supercruises now(and it has on occasion) is carrying nothing, flying above 25000 ft and level.

A air frame which is specifically now designed to continuously take on the stress of super sonic flight can not do super cruise.

Power to weight ratio is a secondary factor. My favorite example is that of Mercedes S Class. that car is designed to tolerate the stress of high speed at elongated period of time.

Now the E class may have the same engine S-350 Vs AMG tuned E Class, but the E-class can NEVER compete with S-Class which is designed to go at high speed.
 
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A air frame which is specifically now designed to continuously take on the stress of super sonic flight can not do super cruise.

Most airframes are stressed for supersonic flight..
their canopies not.
The F-15 can go beyond M2.5 , but its perspex canopy will melt off.
The JF-17 was designed to be able to sustain aircombat in the transonic ranges and supersonic as well.
That doesnt mean however that it was designed to stay supersonic but rather that it can sustain supersonic flight.
 
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i will be pretty happy if someone answer the why, behind JFT being able to do or not do supercruise...
It is a combination of things, not of any one thing.

talking about design not allowing it seems not logical to an amateur because the same aircrft can go to supersonic speed using afterburns? so why not without after burns..? only reason to an amateur is lack of engine power,which the current engine seems to address situation?
There is a difference between a 'supersonic dash' versus a 'supersonic cruise'.

Afterburner or reheat is a barely directed/controlled explosion, to put it simply. What we do is simply dump a large quantity of fuel directly into the exhaust stream of a turbine and let that fuel quantity explode. The result is a powerful push or thrust in the opposite direction and if we sustain this barely directed/controlled explosion long enough, thrust will also be sustained and we will reach Mach.

Which begs the questions of why do we need to dump fuel in the exhaust? What is the difference between burning fuel in the exhaust versus burning fuel INSIDE the engine? After all, is it not burning fuel inside the engine gave us the exhaust in the first place?

Reasonable questions...

A turbine or 'jet' engine is essentially an internal combustion engine. Same as the one we use for our cars. But the differences between the two types on how each process or burn the fuel are crucial to the understanding of why we need a feature call 'afterburner' or 'reheat' for the turbine engine.

Take a liter of fuel be it kerosene or gasoline or even cooking oil. You should understand that this quantity of fuel is a packet of energy, or one form of energy. In this form -- liquid -- the most efficient exploitation of this quantity is to break it down into smaller and smaller and smaller packets BEFORE we ignite or burn it. We break it down by pressurizing it and force it through a physical structure. The method is called 'atomization' and we see it in carburetors and fuel injectors in our cars...

Carb Class: Basic Principals of Carburetor Operation
...the process of mixing air with fuel is “atomization”. Atomization is where things get tricky and some black magic comes to play; carburetor manufacturers, modifiers and other fuel system related companies are always searching for more efficient ways to atomize fuel and air.

The 'atomization' process attempts to break any quantity of fuel down to the molecular level in order to maximize its explosive power in both time and strength.

MSD Ignition
...finely atomized air/fuel molecules in a cylinder being ignited by a single, small spark produced by a stock ignition.

Note: We will never be able to achieve %100 efficiency.

But essentially, the more 'fine' the fuel/air atomization process, the better the fuel conservation with the more power produced at any moment. The MSD source above have basic illustrations on fuel atomization that are helpful enough in visualization of the process.

The internal combustion engine in our cars is the 'reciprocal' type...

Reciprocating engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A reciprocating engine, also often known as a piston engine, is a heat engine that uses one or more reciprocating pistons to convert pressure into a rotating motion.

A turbine or 'jet' engine is technically also an internal combustion engine but it is how each burn, not atomize the fuel/air mixture, that forced us to have a feature call 'afterburner'.

In the reciprocating infernal combustion engine, air flow and fuel/air atomized mixture delivery are in pulses, not continuous, and this mean maximum temperatures are in spikes, not a plateau (flat), and this mean metals have 'rest' or cooling periods between maximum temperature stresses.

It is the opposite with the turbine infernal combustion engine where air flow is continuous. Its dependency on the most efficient fuel/air atomization process is no different than the reciprocating design, except unlike the reciprocating design, the fuel/air mixture delivery must also be continuous instead of periodic pulses. This mean maximum temperature is quickly reached and it STAYED THERE like a plateau (flat). The engine core must stay this way literally for hours and this is probably the most hellish environment that Engineering -- as a discipline -- have yet produced.

Do not look at the engine face fan. It is the core that is out of sight that matters. Materials Science have had extreme difficulties in producing alloys for the core and because of this limitation, exhaust power produced by the core have not been able to take an aircraft into Mach and keep it there. Hence the need for the terribly inefficient and wasteful but powerful enough 'afterburner' feature. Even the Concorde and SR-71 requires afterburners to reach Mach and it is only their optimized aerodynamics for long duration Mach are they able to supercruise once they reached Mach, which lead us to aerodynamics and airframe designs.

Post 41 correctly pointed out that most aircrafts, particularly the ones for multi-purpose use, are not good for supercruise but only for supersonic dashes. The Concorde and the SR-71 can supercruise but they cannot maneuver or carry cargo the way we want. Their aerodynamics are for as low drag/resistance as possible to maximum exploitation of any engine thrust, afterburn or not. Fighters, not even the F-22, are not very efficient out of utility. The fighter aircraft must make radical attitude changes, carry at least one human being, carry weights (missiles) whose presence can disappear abruptly (launch), unlike fuel where its presence progressively decreases and can be replaced, and must be able to repeat in as short time as possible in a 24hr period. So structurally speaking, in terms of robustness, most fighters, including the F-22, are ALREADY NON-CONDUCIVE for supercruise. But because the USAF want the feature, an engine must be designed to make it possible.

It is a combination of aerodynamics, airframe structure, utility, and propulsion that will enable any design, including the JFT, on whether the fighter can supercruise or not. When an aircraft is on paper, everything must be weighted and as the American experience have demonstrated, one thing can outweigh another that would force a major redesign when a contract is underway. So the reality is that as the JFT as is, is it possible to give it the supercruise capability assuming an engine is available.

but what benefit does supercruise has in real combact
Fuel economy. Simple as that. A supesonic dash can get you out of trouble when you are in a fight. A supersonic cruise can get you into a trouble spot when you are needed. Either way, the more fuel you have via efficient fuel management, the longer you can contribute to the war effort.
 
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^ Are these the fuel dump nozzles?
You can see two rows of protuberances inside the engine .. This is an EJ200 of Typhoon..Clicked my me..

7577006978_670c6497e6_b.jpg
 
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