JF17 AESA radar

[SQ8]

@Oscar I was hopping around with some folks, apparently the olefin coolants are not all that difficult to work with and don't require equipment that would take too much space, if your assertion about the JFs having an issue with space is true then it means that even its base design must be taking quite some load with all the additions, this is one issue with all fighters which fall under the light category, no real estate, except the vipers which started out quite light (in comparison to what it is today) but the muricans spent the requisite moolah to get it to work as well as it does with all the added weight.

Although I think a lot of posters don't seem to be appreciating the sheer impossibility of redesigning the radome or enlarging the dimensions at this stage. Reminds me of folks this side of the fence who want the Tejas to carry everything including the damn kitchen sink.

Its an issue of both space and cooling power. After all, the radar sucks up a lot of juice, so does the cooling system.
The solution available(or seen) for this problem may be along the lines of this
High performance thermal cooling for radar electronics components and enclosures, Thermacore Inc.

 

[Dillinger]

Its an issue of both space and cooling power. After all, the radar sucks up a lot of juice, so does the cooling system.
The solution available(or seen) for this problem may be along the lines of this
High performance thermal cooling for radar electronics components and enclosures, Thermacore Inc.

True that, I was running my layman's eyes over the patents of the Indian TRW elements and associated systems when I realized that the peak power output is quite high, no wonder we opted for an air cooled AESA for our own "phase-1" AEW&C project. Lots of feverish activity aimed at getting a proper liquid cooled ESA for the next stage called "Indian AWACS". Imagine trying to miniaturize it for a fighter, the Japs are probably the only ones other than the Muricans who can claim to have any real experience with building and operationalizing such a system.

That aside, what do you think are the prospects of the JFs wrt AESA fitment? Or is the PAF going to opt for the same on a larger platform in the future such as the J-10s (still don't know the status of the latter, you folks buying it or what?)?

 

[Bratva]

A redesigned NG, Engine thrust is similar to RD-93 MA and I guess engine dimensions would be same too, JF-17 B 1 length is 15 Meters. NG gets an AESA, Refueling probe, extra hard point, an IRST by increasing length from 14.9 to 15.2 meters. Similar redesigning could be done for JF-17, but as Oscar said. shortage of $$$$$$$

 

[Usman Ali 1999]

any one has any idea that indian hal tejas which is said to be under construction from unknown years has been finished or still they r removing the aerodynamics problems in that

 

[SQ8]

True that, I was running my layman's eyes over the patents of the Indian TRW elements and associated systems when I realized that the peak power output is quite high, no wonder we opted for an air cooled AESA for our own "phase-1" AEW&C project. Lots of feverish activity aimed at getting a proper liquid cooled ESA for the next stage called "Indian AWACS". Imagine trying to miniaturize it for a fighter, the Japs are probably the only ones other than the Muricans who can claim to have any real experience with building and operationalizing such a system.

That aside, what do you think are the prospects of the JFs wrt AESA fitment? Or is the PAF going to opt for the same on a larger platform in the future such as the J-10s (still don't know the status of the latter, you folks buying it or what?)?

Always has been for AESA systems.. each of those T/R modules is required to pulse out EM waves at considerable wattage. Take the modern count for an AESA at >1000 of these modules.. and you have essentially a heat ray that needs to be cooled.

Air cooling is also the most basic form available, easy to implement.. all you need is to ram air into the electronics(filtered off course). The future however in my view is cooling beyond fluids, which is why I pointed to the link given. The PAF sees that as well. The JF will get an AESA, but for the time being the good old Mechanical systems are sufficient given the seriousness of the threat perception. What one must always understand that with the PAF the limitations are almost always related to the checking account rather than technology.
Even with sanctions, the power of money is such that it drags in people willing to sell...but only if you are willing to pay.
The first 75 or 100 JF-17s may not have AESA, but later blocks will have them. Retrofits however, may not happen as the KLJ-7 may not be line replaceable with an AESA (such as the SABR radar is with the APG-68 on the F-16)..

Ill leave one final itch, and just as a clue The problem(since 4 years ago...as that is the date of my information) with AESA was cooling.. and NOT the radar. The rest is "go figure".

 

[Donatello]

Always has been for AESA systems.. each of those T/R modules is required to pulse out EM waves at considerable wattage. Take the modern count for an AESA at >1000 of these modules.. and you have essentially a heat ray that needs to be cooled.

Air cooling is also the most basic form available, easy to implement.. all you need is to ram air into the electronics(filtered off course). The future however in my view is cooling beyond fluids, which is why I pointed to the link given. The PAF sees that as well. The JF will get an AESA, but for the time being the good old Mechanical systems are sufficient given the seriousness of the threat perception. What one must always understand that with the PAF the limitations are almost always related to the checking account rather than technology.
Even with sanctions, the power of money is such that it drags in people willing to sell...but only if you are willing to pay.
The first 75 or 100 JF-17s may not have AESA, but later blocks will have them. Retrofits however, may not happen as the KLJ-7 may not be line replaceable with an AESA (such as the SABR radar is with the APG-68 on the F-16)..

Ill leave one final itch, and just as a clue The problem(since 4 years ago...as that is the date of my information) with AESA was cooling.. and NOT the radar. The rest is "go figure".

Is it really worth the effort and cost to put an AESA on JF-17 just so we can brag that we have one? I mean a typical configuration of JF-17 will be two wvr and two bvr missiles, with the other three hard points taken up by a combination of pods/fuel tanks/bigger missiles. So do we really need AESA for just 2 BVR missiles?

I mean, it makes sense to have it when you want to accurately track multiple threats and engage them at once. But in a light weight fighter like JF-17, AESA is a good silver lining, but not something that is must.

 

[SQ8]

Is it really worth the effort and cost to put an AESA on JF-17 just so we can brag that we have one? I mean a typical configuration of JF-17 will be two wvr and two bvr missiles, with the other three hard points taken up by a combination of pods/fuel tanks/bigger missiles. So do we really need AESA for just 2 BVR missiles?

I mean, it makes sense to have it when you want to accurately track multiple threats and engage them at once. But in a light weight fighter like JF-17, AESA is a good silver lining, but not something that is must.

Bingo, now you're thinking like some air staff guy. .. without the commission temptations off course.

 

[Dillinger]

Always has been for AESA systems.. each of those T/R modules is required to pulse out EM waves at considerable wattage. Take the modern count for an AESA at >1000 of these modules.. and you have essentially a heat ray that needs to be cooled.

Air cooling is also the most basic form available, easy to implement.. all you need is to ram air into the electronics(filtered off course). The future however in my view is cooling beyond fluids, which is why I pointed to the link given. The PAF sees that as well. The JF will get an AESA, but for the time being the good old Mechanical systems are sufficient given the seriousness of the threat perception. What one must always understand that with the PAF the limitations are almost always related to the checking account rather than technology.
Even with sanctions, the power of money is such that it drags in people willing to sell...but only if you are willing to pay.
The first 75 or 100 JF-17s may not have AESA, but later blocks will have them. Retrofits however, may not happen as the KLJ-7 may not be line replaceable with an AESA (such as the SABR radar is with the APG-68 on the F-16)..

Ill leave one final itch, and just as a clue The problem(since 4 years ago...as that is the date of my information) with AESA was cooling.. and NOT the radar. The rest is "go figure".

I would have thought that the Chinese would have found a solution by now, after Japan they are the only one's in Asia with a relatively proper grasp of the technology, I do think you're right that the funds aspect plays a larger role in the issue than the technology. Although, has the PAF even made an official expression of interest for AESA fitment on the JFs to the Chinese, it would be a bit funny if the PAF itself does not deem it to be a priority at the moment and everyone else here is making an issue out of it.

Although, ground based AESA radars seem to have given us less trouble with multiple examples cropping up in the last two years.

 

[SQ8]

I would have thought that the Chinese would have found a solution by now, after Japan they are the only one's in Asia with a relatively proper grasp of the technology, I do think you're right that the funds aspect plays a larger role in the issue than the technology. Although, has the PAF even made an official expression of interest for AESA fitment on the JFs to the Chinese, it would be a bit funny if the PAF itself does not deem it to be a priority at the moment and everyone else here is making an issue out of it.

Although, ground based AESA radars seem to have given us less trouble with multiple examples cropping up in the last two years.

Well, everyone else was making a priority out of the J-10s till they realized otherwise. Staff requirements are built on available budget and requirements. The PAF has no immediate need for an AESA system.
The Chinese stick to air or liquid cooling, that still needs more space(and power).

 

[Donatello]

Bingo, now you're thinking like some air staff guy. .. without the commission temptations off course.

But i want to take it as a compliment.......

Well, everyone else was making a priority out of the J-10s till they realized otherwise. Staff requirements are built on available budget and requirements. The PAF has no immediate need for an AESA system.
The Chinese stick to air or liquid cooling, that still needs more space(and power).

The AESA on ZDK03 and ERIEYE is air cooled or liquid cooled?

 

[Dillinger]

Well, everyone else was making a priority out of the J-10s till they realized otherwise. Staff requirements are built on available budget and requirements. The PAF has no immediate need for an AESA system.
The Chinese stick to air or liquid cooling, that still needs more space(and power).

IMO, liquid cooling is going to stay for the foreseeable future wrt AESA sensors given how expensive the baseline AESA tech is anyway and how expensive the platforms they get crammed into are getting, personally I don't see focus shifting to getting an alternative to liquid cooling on line in a hurry. Folks are going to be focusing on graduating to GaN elements at the production level rather than just in prototypes and addition of modes and capabilities through increments in signal processing capability and back-end software. With Saab leading the charge in GaN with its Giraffe 4A and the proliferation of GaN EW systems (which goes to show how much time it takes for the real cutting edge to percolate to all applicable systems and areas) I think folks all over are going to be looking towards getting in with that trend. On the other hand if someone does decide to go down the path you envision then competitive obsolescence might see everyone jump on that bandwagon in due time.

But i want to take it as a compliment.......



The AESA on ZDK03 and ERIEYE is air cooled or liquid cooled?

ERIEYE is air cooled.

 

[Gessler]

BThe AESA on ZDK03 and ERIEYE is air cooled or liquid cooled?

You sure radar on ZDK is an AESA?

 

[SQ8]

You sure radar on ZDK is an AESA?

Not quite. Its scans Active only vertically. like so < .
This Active vertical scanning beam is then rotated mechanically.

 

[Dillinger]

Not quite. Its scans Active only vertically. like so < .
This Active vertical scanning beam is then rotated mechanically.

That's...ummm...unique..why though?

 

[Mr.S.Singh]

whats the tracking range of the radar ?? specifications ?