JF-17 VS MIRAGE-2000

[NKVD]

So 98 Kn of force = 22031 lbs of force
3.5 tonnes + the empty weight = 24077 lbs

Translating in to a TWR of 0.91 for M2K, it doesn't really have anything to do with the versions of the aircraft like you believe, just the weight being loaded differs in each consideration ...


The JFT still beats the M2k over the TWR comparison, even with this claim of yours ... but like I've previously stated the comparison in such conditions wouldn't hold any ground, because the two jets belong to different weight classes, and carry different loads -- and the type of load would dictate the ultimate TWR but for the sake of comparison, I assumed loaded weights --

however if I were to compute TWR's on

Empty weight - Jf-17 would have 1.30, M2k has a TWR of 1.34 at empty weight

Loaded weight - JF-17 has a TWR of 0.94/0.95, M2k on the other hand has 0.72

Max take off weight - JF-17 has a TWR of 0.68, M2K on the other hand has 0.59

With these jets being of 2 different weight classes the load types on each would be different, but generally speaking JFT would be at an advantage in most cases --

That's usually the case with relatively heavier fighters, unless you have an engine like GE F110, or F100 giving you thrust ranging from 110 KN all the way to 144 KN if one is talking desert falcon, then you have Mig-29's with RD-33's providing along the lines of 80 KN each --

So while the M2K is a good platform, TWR isn't exactly its strong suite -- so bottom line, even with your "source" the M2k would still be at a disadvantage in the TWR category ...

I think you Right on this One Due to its Light Weight JF-17 Up in Twr I Studied Mig-21 in its Emergency thrust Mode can generate (T/W - 1.12 in emergency thrust mode)

Reason Mig-21 bison outperformed in f-16 in Cope india during Mock battles Not once but twice

I think One should not underestimate any Aircraft With Good Strategy any fighter Can be lethal

The problem is I've already stated a number of times that MICA is a good missile, but does it give M2K the ultimate advantage --- not really -- since the opposition -- I stress again -- is fielding BVR missiles that just happen to be very capable as well --- with continuous reference to the HOJ capability that both (AMRAAM C5's and SD-10's have)

- As far as your criticism of the AMRAAM is concerned, I'd love for you to read your post again -- aloud-- because all it's saying is that --- AMRAAM hit the drones, the Mig's over Iraq, the Serbian Migs --- and the "could be's" of why the jets were destroyed ... and if they had such and such and such would they have been able to survive -- all an "analysis" -- while the fact remains -- amongst all the incidents you mentioned --- the result were : kills achieved by the AMRAAMs ---

On the subject of HoJ,

It is a huge misconception that missiles will home on a jamming signal. It may be possible with certain types of jammers, like barrage jammers which continuously emit a signal towards their target.

The jammers represented in the game are barrage jammers, which is incorrect. This type of jammer broadcasts noise at high power on a lot of frequencies/channels in an attempt to lower than SNR of the target radars, in other words, to blind them so they cannot see other incoming aircraft. This is the sort of jamming done by dedicated EW aircraft like the EA-6 or EF-18G.

ECM onboard fighters is normally an SPJ (Self Protection Jammer) whose job is to break lock if you're locked onto. It ONLY activates when you are locked on to, and only jams the threat signal - meaning the specific frequency and if possible in the direction of that signal.

For most missiles, when the target is presenting invalid data (assuming the launching platform can detect this) the missile launch is simply inhibited and you won't be able to launch it.

Some missiles are capable of exploiting an SPJ, but we don't know which missiles against which jammers. We know that a lot of missiles can attack barrage jammers, as long as those are broadcasting on the correct frequency, and a lot of missiles have some limited ability to deal with ECM while in-flight ... but you can, for the most part, forget about launching them if the target is jamming before you fire - that of course depends on the sophistication of your platform as well. A better radar can better cope with ECM.
__________________

 

[abdulbarijan]

I think you Right on this One Due to its Light Weight JF-17 Up in Twr I Studied Mig-21 in its Emergency thrust Mode can generate (T/W - 1.12 in emergency thrust mode)

Reason Mig-21 bison outperformed in f-16 in Cope india during Mock battles Not once but twice

I think One should not underestimate any Aircraft With Good Strategy any fighter Can be lethal

I thought that exercises didn't matter, your previous posts were giving examples from Rafale-raptors engagements to Typhoon-16 engagements trying to prove that these air battles airforces have don't matter -- but now suddenly since the Mig-21 had kills on -16's during Cope India's they matter ---



Oh well, I guess if one were to point out that the situation would apply to JFT and M2K platforms as well, you'd flip flop again ..

On the subject of HoJ,

It is a huge misconception that missiles will home on a jamming signal. It may be possible with certain types of jammers, like barrage jammers which continuously emit a signal towards their target.

The jammers represented in the game are barrage jammers, which is incorrect. This type of jammer broadcasts noise at high power on a lot of frequencies/channels in an attempt to lower than SNR of the target radars, in other words, to blind them so they cannot see other incoming aircraft. This is the sort of jamming done by dedicated EW aircraft like the EA-6 or EF-18G.

ECM onboard fighters is normally an SPJ (Self Protection Jammer) whose job is to break lock if you're locked onto. It ONLY activates when you are locked on to, and only jams the threat signal - meaning the specific frequency and if possible in the direction of that signal.

For most missiles, when the target is presenting invalid data (assuming the launching platform can detect this) the missile launch is simply inhibited and you won't be able to launch it.

Some missiles are capable of exploiting an SPJ, but we don't know which missiles against which jammers. We know that a lot of missiles can attack barrage jammers, as long as those are broadcasting on the correct frequency, and a lot of missiles have some limited ability to deal with ECM while in-flight ... but you can, for the most part, forget about launching them if the target is jamming before you fire - that of course depends on the sophistication of your platform as well. A better radar can better cope with ECM.
__________________

Like I've said for God knows how many times, atleast read the post your copying before posting on here-- read the quoted part in red ... Similarly the condition would apply to MICA & M2k, if I were to take this posters word for it ... where

For most missiles, when the target is presenting invalid data (assuming the launching platform can detect this) the missile launch is simply inhibited and you won't be able to launch it.
Home on Jam missiles in DCSW? - ED Forums

Thats for LOBL, but what happens if the M2K is faced with the same condition, with LOAL MICA where it needs inputs from its guiding radar until its safe in the range, where its seeker can independently peruse the targets ...

But then again -- you don't know for sure where Aim-120 C5 or SD-10A/B have the ability to exploit SPJ's now -- why don't you have your M2K come on here on this side of the border and find out ...

However, with the discussion of EW, you forget the EW suite of JF-17, for which I'm constantly referring you to the JFT info pool thread -- If all these factors are considered -- your more or less talking of a WVR engagement ... with TWR and horizontal axis maneuverability in the bag for JFT, then you'd have to worry about those pilots who had no BVR to play with for a long time, and meanwhile focused on perfecting the art of dogfighting -- just go to the "exercises" thread in the PAF section -- and you'll find things that will startle you ...

And word for word copying will do you no good my friend, atleast come up with a rational thought of your own before you come up on here, back in my days, copying people's work with no change what so ever, was considered plagiarism ..

Home on and jamming mode is not Space Tech Most Sophisticated DRFM & SPJ Can Stop transmitting Signal when they Locked
Depending on the Distance they have been locked Fighter can Easily outmaneuver Missile Lock

I see-- everything being fielded by the Indian side is "space/alien tech" -- good to know

 

[Beta-Fighter]

why even you people discussing this , PAF don't think JF-17 good enough that's why they buying F-16, India bought Mirages -2000 to counter F-16 lately.

Most of the figures are talking here either based of insufficient data and magically dreams with no Proof. We would love to judge the JFT action, Which is JFT stopped in bombing action because after crash , their week structure exposed ,and it was since then taken out action because it unable to do precise bombing or in short LGB's .

While Old mirages-2000 dropped 1000 KG LBG's with pin point accuracy. ( video and pic available) . So those who talk about JFT , first bring proof and then talk with your dreams figures.

 

[abdulbarijan]

why even you people discussing this , PAF don't think JF-17 good enough that's why they buying F-16, India bought Mirages -2000 to counter F-16 lately.

Most of the figures are talking here either based of insufficient data and magically dreams with no Proof. We would love to judge the JFT action, Which is JFT stopped in bombing action because after crash , their week structure exposed ,and it was since then taken out action because it unable to do precise bombing or in short LGB's .

While Old mirages-2000 dropped 1000 KG LBG's with pin point accuracy. ( video and pic available) . So those who talk about JFT , first bring proof and then talk with your dreams figures.

It's our right to discuss this because guess what this is a forum where people discuss things --

No proof -- okay, I get it -- "made up" stats given by the PAC (of the two partners of the JV) on an international stage -- no prob

Ahh great, guess what, after a crash -- it is usually the norm to stop activities using the platform until an investigation and subsequent actions have been taken -- you would know that if you knew what you were talking about -- or have watched like an episode of Mayday -- like ever ...

Secondly, If this is the scale for measuring "'action" -- what do you say for the SU-30 MKI (the best fighter after raptor as per guys like you) and entire fleets of it being grounded after crashes ??

So instead of trolling on here, go on BR or any other forum like that where you can go on a tirade of such posts unquestioned ..

 

[Basel]

@gambit plz give your opinion on discussion above.

 

[AUz]

why even you people discussing this , PAF don't think JF-17 good enough that's why they buying F-16, India bought Mirages -2000 to counter F-16 lately.

Most of the figures are talking here either based of insufficient data and magically dreams with no Proof. We would love to judge the JFT action, Which is JFT stopped in bombing action because after crash , their week structure exposed ,and it was since then taken out action because it unable to do precise bombing or in short LGB's .

While Old mirages-2000 dropped 1000 KG LBG's with pin point accuracy. ( video and pic available) . So those who talk about JFT , first bring proof and then talk with your dreams figures.

Dumbass, the JFT lost was doing extreme TESTING of the jet and wasn't on a bombing run. lol.

JF-17 has dropped unguided bombs on TTP strongholds with pretty surprising accuracy. However, PAF does use F-16 more for smart munitions because F-16 is a battle-tested platform more suitable for war that's being fought in North-Western frontier.

We do have videos of JF-17s dropping bombs during live-fire exercises though. The precision was impeccable!

Anyways, whats the point of talking to an indian---his nation produced junk jet like tejas and failed at it too...lmao!! While JFT is getting export orders worth hundreds of millions

 

[NKVD]

Thats for LOBL, but what happens if the M2K is faced with the same condition, with LOAL MICA where it needs inputs from its guiding radar until its safe in the range, where its seeker can independently peruse the targets ...

But then again -- you don't know for sure where Aim-120 C5 or SD-10A/B have the ability to exploit SPJ's now -- why don't you have your M2K come on here on this side of the border and find out ...


And word for word copying will do you no good my friend, atleast come up with a rational thought of your own before you come up on here, back in my days, copying people's work with no change what so ever, was considered plagiarism ..

Home on and jamming mode is not Space Tech Most Sophisticated DRFM & SPJ Can Stop transmitting Signal when they Locked
Depending on the Distance they have been locked Fighter can Easily outmaneuver Missile Lock

 

[The_Sidewinder]

No need for these vs threads. We say our planes are superior & they say theirs. Then we fight & go home happy feeling proud.

 

[Ibr0kEmYrAz0r]

To get the lastest spec infomation on those missiles, Indian forum members are welcome to apply visa to China and to visit those missile prodcuction facilities in person with a camera... at your own risk

 

[Super Falcon]

Compare thunder with tejas u only get furstated thats whu u are comparing thinder with twin engine mig 29 use some sense f 16 had edge over any mig in the sorld any where they fought falcon burn hell out of it

 

[Last Samuri]

TOP FIGHTER PLANES IN THE WORLD

WORLD AIR FORCE FEB 2015 using F16C Mig29smt Mirage2000 as BASE LINE 1/1 equal in aircombat/strike

F-16C = 1/1
F-16A = 0.7/0.8
F-16AM = 1/0.8
F-16A OCU = 1/0.9
F-16 block 52+ aka F-16I = 1.1/1.2
F-16 block 60 = 1.3/1.2
F-15A = 1.2/0.5
F-15C = 1.3/0.5
F-15E = 1.4/1.5
F-15S = 1.3/1.4
F-15SG = 1.5/1.5
F-18A = 1/1.1
F-18C = 1.05/1.15
F-18F = 1.3/1.3
F-2 = 1.3/1.2
F-16AM = 1/08
F-22 = 4/1
Mirage 2000 = 1/1
Typhoon (MESA radar) = 1.4/1.1
Rafale (PESA radar) = 1.3/1.2
Tornado IDS = 0.5/1.2
Tornado ADV = 1/0.6
F-4 = 0.3/0.6
F-4 Terminator = 0.6/1
Su-27 = 1.2/0.4
Su-27SM = 1.3/0.8
Su-35 = 1.4/1.2
MiG-29 = 0.9/0.5
MiG-29SMT = 1/1
Su-30MKI = 1.3/1.2
Su-30MKK = 1.2/1.2
MiG-21 aka J7 = 0.25/0.35
MiG-27 = 0.2/0.7
JF-17 = 0.9/0.8
AMX = 0.2/0.5
Mirage F.1 = 0.7/0.8
Mirage 3/5 = 0.25/0.35
Jaguar = 0.2/0.6
F-5 = 0.25/0.35
J-10 = 1/1
J-8 = 0.6/0.4
JH-7 = 0.5/1.1
Q-5 = 0.1/0.4
H-6 = 0/2


Using this analysis in indo pak subcontinent

Su30mki is the best overall
F16/52
Mirage 2000/ mig29smt
Thunder
Mig21/J7

OF COURSE

 

[Beta-Fighter]

Dumbass, the JFT lost was doing extreme TESTING of the jet and wasn't on a bombing run. lol.

JF-17 has dropped unguided bombs on TTP strongholds with pretty surprising accuracy. However, PAF does use F-16 more for smart munitions because F-16 is a battle-tested platform more suitable for war that's being fought in North-Western frontier.

We do have videos of JF-17s dropping bombs during live-fire exercises though. The precision was impeccable!

Anyways, whats the point of talking to an indian---his nation produced junk jet like tejas and failed at it too...lmao!! While JFT is getting export orders worth hundreds of millions

A) lol Mr Dumbo and fantasy stories creator, care you tell what made JFT crash? fantasy story created by PAF to escape humiliation just like missile testing stories created by PA, isn't ?

B) isn't the extreme testing done before the jet goes into production ? Oh Forget PAF testing pane after production.

C) Lol, MR. ... You are telling me you wanna tell the world that you use F-16 because its battle tested platform and you don't want to battle test your own JFT.

Well World wide AF would love to use new plane rather then old plane to test New planes capabilities in real environment .

EU and France used their Rafael and Euro fighter for Libya missions rather mirage 2000/ F-16 etc which was more battle tested..... lol , give better excuse next time........

New plane was battle tested in the same environment where Air threat is minimum , If goes by your rule. your JFT will never be battle test in life.


IN Short you want to Say JFT is not capable of dropping LBG's?

It's our right to discuss this because guess what this is a forum where people discuss things --

No proof -- okay, I get it -- "made up" stats given by the PAC (of the two partners of the JV) on an international stage -- no prob

Ahh great, guess what, after a crash -- it is usually the norm to stop activities using the platform until an investigation and subsequent actions have been taken -- you would know that if you knew what you were talking about -- or have watched like an episode of Mayday -- like ever ...

After every crash report publish and give details about the crash , did you seen any report in public? OH all everyone knows after that crash , JFT stop dropping bombs since then,

Secondly, If this is the scale for measuring "'action" -- what do you say for the SU-30 MKI (the best fighter after raptor as per guys like you) and entire fleets of it being grounded after crashes ??

So instead of trolling on here, go on BR or any other forum like that where you can go on a tirade of such posts unquestioned ..

yes , you see the report and investigation and proper reason for that In every SU -30 crash , either human or software fault find and then rectified as per condition wanted. Did you seen in JFT case?

Like in last SU-30 crash , Plane was dropped from low height to ground , the software think it going to crash , and automatic ejection take plane , but IAF pilot trying developing new tactic , after finding , the software code was refined.

Compare thunder with tejas u only get furstated thats whu u are comparing thinder with twin engine mig 29 use some sense f 16 had edge over any mig in the sorld any where they fought falcon burn hell out of it

Every other world no real battle take place , in always the US AF against the weak country, i.e. large number of f-16 / F-16 with support of ACWAS etc.

Only things can compare when they fly with Russian . your best F-16 failed in test in India. REMEBER that.

 

[salarsikander]

@Horus Are VS thread allowed in PDF?

 

[NKVD]

However, with the discussion of EW, you forget the EW suite of JF-17, for which I'm constantly referring you to the JFT info pool thread -- If all these factors are considered -- your more or less talking of a WVR engagement ... with TWR and horizontal axis maneuverability in the bag for JFT, then you'd have to worry about those pilots who had no BVR to play with for a long time, and meanwhile focused on perfecting the art of dogfighting -- just go to the "exercises" thread in the PAF section -- and you'll find things that will startle you ...

Like Chinese EW Suit you are Talking About It All Nothing they are Unproven most of them Not Even Has if they are So good why No one Buying them
Chinese Always Secret about there Reverse Engineering Stuff only paF buy there Gizmos Best of Luck in War

SD-10A/B have the ability to exploit SPJ's now -- why don't you have your M2K come on here on this side of the border and find out

SD-10 an Reverse Engineered R-77 only Difference is use of conventional Fins AGAT's 9B-1348 active-radar seeker (developed for the Vympel R-77, AA-12 'Adder') to China for integration with the Chinese-developed missile. Alternatively, technology from AGAT's 9B-1103M seeker family may be offered to China
is still Speculation that it can Really what its bragged about.

As Countering Home-on jamming Mode India Have Various Stand-off jammers (SOJ). The jamming unit remains just outside the range of enemy weapons, providing screening for attacking units that actually penetrate enemy defenses. The advantage of SOJ is that the jammer is safe from enemy home-on jamming (HOJ) weapons (a submode of nearly all RF homing weapons).

Read the Link below drdo development on Soj EW
TRISHUL: Clearing The Mist On the IAF's Airborne EW Suites For Combat Aircraft & Helicopters

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/data/Electronic Warfare.pdf

 

[abdulbarijan]

After every crash report publish and give details about the crash , did you seen any report in public? OH all everyone knows after that crash , JFT stop dropping bombs since then,

yes , you see the report and investigation and proper reason for that In every SU -30 crash , either human or software fault find and then rectified as per condition wanted. Did you seen in JFT case?

Like in last SU-30 crash , Plane was dropped from low height to ground , the software think it going to crash , and automatic ejection take plane , but IAF pilot trying developing new tactic , after finding , the software code was refined.


Every other world no real battle take place , in always the US AF against the weak country, i.e. large number of f-16 / F-16 with support of ACWAS etc.

Only things can compare when they fly with Russian . your best F-16 failed in test in India. REMEBER that.

- If this is the level of "crash reports" these days, I'd rather not see another one
- and crash report not being public means ..... the JFT hasn't had any refinement that a jet goes through if a fault is found -- ???
- BTW, whose "EVERY ONE" -- who supposedly already knows what you claim ...
-Lastly when your orignial point is this ...

Its tell how the plane is safe unlike your JF-17 which was crashed during bombing mission then was stopped flying by PAF since then in bombing fear of getting crashed.

.

while defending your LCA, your like its safe -- hasn't crashed -- but when one mentions well, the entire IAF from Mig-21 to SU-30 mki , you start going -- oooh no you see there was a report and blablabla ..

Secondly, the JFT crash was in Attock, the anti terrorist Op is happening in N.Waziristan --- so atleast do check your BS before posting it on here -- because your the same person asking for proofs -- and posting without any whatsoever --

and just in case you dont know, for an aircraft you allege hasn't been tested enough, hasn't matured -- isn't this this and this -- it has already won an export order -- so you can continue with your tirade of "what I wish" lists -- doesn't make em true .. as far as the integration goes, the process can go on while the jet has been inducted in the AF, there are numerous examples of jets being integrated with a huge array of weapons after being inducted in airforces around the world --

Like Chinese EW Suit you are Talking About It All Nothing they are Unproven most of them Not Even Has if they are So good why No one Buying them
Chinese Always Secret about there Reverse Engineering Stuff only paF buy there Gizmos Best of Luck in War

SD-10 an Reverse Engineered R-77 only Difference is use of conventional Fins AGAT's 9B-1348 active-radar seeker (developed for the Vympel R-77, AA-12 'Adder') to China for integration with the Chinese-developed missile. Alternatively, technology from AGAT's 9B-1103M seeker family may be offered to China
is still Speculation that it can Really what its bragged about.

As Countering Home-on jamming Mode India Have Various Stand-off jammers (SOJ). The jamming unit remains just outside the range of enemy weapons, providing screening for attacking units that actually penetrate enemy defenses. The advantage of SOJ is that the jammer is safe from enemy home-on jamming (HOJ) weapons (a submode of nearly all RF homing weapons).

Read the Link below drdo development on Soj EW
TRISHUL: Clearing The Mist On the IAF's Airborne EW Suites For Combat Aircraft & Helicopters

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/data/Electronic Warfare.pdf

Arguing with you is a drag, because no matter how much points one puts up, you still go out data mining, ignoring every point made against you and coming up with "look ive found this " -- most of the time not even reading it yourself and saying -- "now what do you have to say about this!!!!!!" -- and the cycle continues as previously exhibited ..

Now before you go hahaha -- see my "rationality" on display -- do take a look at your own response ...

-The only response you have to the level of integration and the different sensors being used in the EW suite of JFT, is that its unproven -- okay -- now I expect the same criticism against MICA which compared to an AMRAAM is unproven in real war scenarios -- but it doesn't work that way because claims like unproven etc. are only credible in your book when they are against your opposition and not you.. right ???

-then you have the SD-10 criticism, where its seeker is derived off an R-77 -- even if i accept this claim -- the question becomes -- does that make it any less threatening cuz last I heard the spearhead of IAF's BVRAAM's was the R-77 ... and then there is also an upgraded version in the pipeline -- so merely stating that you also have to consider a capable weapon system fielded by the opposition is not bragging -- its merely stating the facts...

- As far as HOJ's are concerned sure -- you can assume all you want but your own post was talking of radar capabilities, and the fact where different missiles can actually target SPJ's as well -- so go back -- and read your own posts before you talk ---

Lastly, I'm not gonna waste my time with you anymore -- I actually thought that you were going to post some worth while things, being a senior member and all but seems like your just data mining your way through to live in the argument instead of posting a response of any kind --- so adios --