JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Chak Bamu]

We are looking for the original document

So am I.

Sit tight, I am in touch with Dr. Bashir. Let me see how he responds. I would not want to infringe on IP rights if told to not share the original.

 

[CriticalThought]

Golden canopy on F-16 does not indicates any wild weasel capability .... but we do have unknown number of AN/ALQ-173 (V) (link) and some unknown number of DRFM based jamming pods based on ALQ-211 family of electronic warfare systems.(link)

True. When it was shared by seniors, we were told the gold tint is for pilot's own safety from the intense EM energy. It also reduces radar reflection from internal surfaces of the cockpit. So it's unlikely any other aircraft would be used. But plz enlighten me if I am mistaken here.

So am I.

Sit tight, I am in touch with Dr. Bashir. Let me see how he responds. I would not want to infringe on IP rights if told to not share the original.

Well, you could tell us the process through which we can obtain it.

 

[denel]

True. When it was shared by seniors, we were told the gold tint is for pilot's own safety from the intense EM energy. It also reduces radar reflection from internal surfaces of the cockpit. So it's unlikely any other aircraft would be used. But plz enlighten me if I am mistaken here.



Well, you could tell us the process through which we can obtain it.

Exposure to RF is extremely lethal; especially with EW pods which are producing massive amounts of EM. To take a case, if you have an RF transmitter at home you can try it if you dont believe me. Put hand on the dipole; switch to CW or AM mode and key the PTT; with a min you will get a burn which can easily become 3rd degree as it cooks you from inside out. Same goes for pilot he needs to be shielded from these pods which can encroach microwave range in your regular micrave oven.

 

[khanasifm]

When is dual seater due in paf ?? Based on last scheduled announced a quarter after first flight but first flight RHT was delayed by a quarter so ??

 

[HRK]

True. When it was shared by seniors, we were told the gold tint is for pilot's own safety from the intense EM energy. It also reduces radar reflection from internal surfaces of the cockpit. So it's unlikely any other aircraft would be used. But plz enlighten me if I am mistaken here.

Its better to requote the resident expert

First...The gold tint is an attempt to reduce cockpit contribution to RCS.

Second...EW transmission jamming beam can be formed, just like a radar beam, and more directional in terms of situational tactics, so the cockpit region receives next to none of the EW beam. Only when the jamming is needed to be wide area and highest output is when the cockpit region need that faraday cage like function precisely because of the proximity to the transmitting antennas.

When I was active duty, both the F-111 and the F-16 did not have the tinted canopy even though both jets were capable of carrying self protection jammer pods. When I was with the 72nd at MacDill, our A/Bs did not have the tinted canopies. Only later when we transitioned to the C/Ds did the tinted canopies started by one jet at a time. Basically, only when a jet is available for major scheduled maintenance would the canopy be modded, else it was kept on daily flight status. But then, MacDill and Luke were F-16 training bases, not combat deployable like Shaw, so these golden tinted canopy mods were not high priority for us.

That said...

It is true -- serving dual purpose -- but it depends on the jet where one function outweighs the other.

Self protection jammer pod is usually used (activated) when egressing the combat area. It means after you dropped your load on the enemy's head, you booked out at max thrust with a trail of EM noise behind you. On both the F-111 and F-16, the pods are slung underneath and the cockpits are shielded by the jets' bodies anyway.

The canopy mods would be more applicable to the F-16 than to the F-111 simply because the F-16 is a true fighter while the F-111 is more a bomber despite the F designator.

Most people do not know this, but with modern day air combat, going after a ground air defense combatant is just as dangerous as going after another jet fighter combatant. In many ways, it is more restrictive because the air defense missile unit is ground based, forcing you to maneuver with limited freedom in altitude. In other words, fly too high and you are no good to the mission, if needed and often it is needed, you have to get down to CAS altitude to kill that air defense missile unit. With this kind of proximity to the enemy's radar, I welcome any modification that would reduce the odds, not completely eliminated, of his radar acquiring me. If his radar hesitate acquisition by just one second because my cockpit was not reflective enough, that one second could mean my survival so I will take that mod.

This view...

...Of an F-16 is extremely rare in ACM. For the human eye or the seeking radar, with this view, the cockpit well is statistically irrelevant. The entire jet is essentially a giant reflective plate. But in ACM, this view do not last for long, more like a few milliseconds at best. Too short for any seeking radar to calculate a lock-over-time algorithm.

A visual size is not the same as the true physical size. Simply put, the visual size of a car differs from front to side. Just like the common story how a group of blind men perceives an elephant base upon different areas of the animal each blind man touched.

This view...

...Is more common in ACM. Not just for the F-16 but for any maneuvering jet. If I have to face an enemy seeking radar, air or ground, presenting myself to him in this fashion, I do not want me in my cockpit well to assist that radar in acquiring a lock on me. If a canopy mod would reduce the time of the enemy radar acquiring a lock by just one second, long enough for me to launch a HARM at that ground air defense radar, I would welcome that canopy mod.

Now, for the jet that is a dedicated jammer, like the Navy's Growler series. Simple.

These jets carry jammer pods that are capable of both focused and wide area broadcast signals, and those pods are carried in multiple positions on the jet. Some of those positions, under wing and wing tips, when they are in wide area broadcast mode, the cockpit is vulnerable to both being jammed and itself reflects those signals. Sort of like being blinded and holding a beacon at the same time.


In wide area broadcast mode, the jet can interfere its own radar operations.

EW is both a skill and an art. It is a skill in the sense that you are supported by a lot of technical assets, in training and out, that you will gain technical proficiency in using EW. It is an art in the sense that you have analyze the latest electronic intelligence about the target area and create an EW battleplan to support the mission. You have to know, at best you can, what the air defense fields in that area.

Certain short pulse target acquisition radars may require only focused short bursts from you to disrupt its operations and delay missile launches, while certain volume search radars will require you to be the first to enter the combat zone and saturate the area with as much EM noise as possible to mask the rest of the attack group. You have to plan but at the same time, you cannot be so rigid as to remain locked in that plan while combat is underway. If your plan involves wide area broadcast that would interfere with the EM operations, radar and communication, of the rest of the attack group, you have to coordinate with the group as to when they will be operating blind EM-wise.

So yes, you can severely degrades your own radar/comm operation if you are not careful.

High conductive materials. Gold is good. Current generations have partially moved away from gold. High conductance fast diode multilayer cermain cc, embedded in the glass canopy are in development or have been developed for the same purpose.

& this one

View attachment 364017

Now consider that the jammer pods are actually behind the pilot and that there instantaneous output when in burn-through mode might be higher than the fighter's radar.

@gambit is correct in everything he says, which is refreshing considering the pussyfooting and evading found on all other forums where they basically say we will tell you but then we will have to kill you.

I think the coating moved on to indium-tin-oxide; don't know what they currently use.


Ok that answers it.

 

[khanasifm]

Range enhancement against mirages as well as f7s at sea and otherwise

 

[Windjammer]

 

[sparten]

Block II Thunder has a full FBW right?

 

[Major Sam]

PAF does not have the assetts and will not have them to carry out any of your suggestions.It amazes me that you guys do not look at the obvious and go for the obscure to impossible.
For instance why would China allow you to use its air space to attack India? Would it not trigger a response from India and result in a nuclear exchange?
Secondly you need to have a ratio of 3:1 for an aggressive stance and take the attrition that goes with aggressive maneovering over enemy terrain. With a border guarded as well with Air defence systems like India-Pak border you will deplete your assetts in 3-4 days with the enemy laughing all the way to their trenches.
Even if you somehow breached their defences and neutered them what will you have left over to avail the advantage gained? Your ground units will be at the mercy of their air assetts and how will you defend them.
The most logical solution is saturation atracks with LACM /drones depleting their defences and then attack under air cover with your assetts intact as the real fight will start then. You will only be able to hold 2-300 kilometres of enemy land and fight from there and sue for peace from an advantageous point.
Their response would be to open up multiple fronts and dilute your resources and man power from a concentrated attack. You will lose some land mass but as long as you can hold them and contain them which is a big if, in the negotiations you will have an upper hand.
Mind you this is all theoretical because no one will await the landing of aLACM to check whether it is nuke tipped or not. At the first sight they will unleash their Nukes and so will you. So this whole debate is a mute point in any case.
I think the whole business of weaponry is the deterrent level of them. Once you start using them the big guns will be out sooner or later and it will be curtains for both India and Pak. Best to make your economy strong and make peace.
A

Well until we will not plan it how we will have it. Then behter ni hath per hath dhar kr beth jao when our enemies know k 3-4 din bad ham jo chahay kr skte han. Until enemy will not have any fear of us. them we are just wasting our monet on PAF better spend it on education and health.

I know we cant fight 1-1 but we need have few things from which we can assure our enemies that we can hurt them in their heart. Though it will not hurt them much physically but it will hurt their moral. Thats how war works its all about tactics and making ur enemy be fearful from u.

@MastanKhan

Sir g still we are all here to learn and learning never stops , we should accept the fact that most of here are to learn for example even my take on war was similar to like some fency stuff but after joining this forum and read from learned fellows like you and other I feel that it is a dirty business and should be avoided unless necessary ...

So rather than confronting such thoughts harshly I would request a mild approach for telling the reality, so that people like me can learn from you


I think point 3 is totally unrealistic ... Not possible even theoratically ... We need to understand that nobody is going to fight our war ,,, So China will not allow to use space and will help for nothing except for ensuring weapons supply for which we will be paying for decades ...

First two points are theoretically correct but given the high attrition rate and our small air force point no 1 do not exist in real world whereas even in real world growler or any like aircraft is not in our reach as of now ... So all theoretical assumptions only ... now peace ...

Well if there is no intentional to have it, then we are already doomed. 1-2 squadron of heavy fighters will b enough to deter to our enemy. Like we had nucler bombs in worst econom condition we can have these too. but for this we need good intentions. there were news of 500m$ scam in PAF alone. So its all about either we want these or not. these will cost not more than 3-5B. If we can have 8 sub with 4-5B $ tag we can have these too. Why we need to have those weapons which can fight a war why not those which can won us war. or they will help us in detering the wat like our nuclear weapons. We need to come out from slavery and defensive minds.

 

[CriticalThought]

Block II Thunder has a full FBW right?

According to unofficial sources, yes.

 

[Basel]

it is weird paf acquires jf-17 to replace j-7 while plaaf is content to go the other route

It's not weird it's called priorities, requirements and funds / resources available.

Most probably this news is incorrect ... A light weight fighter cannot be stealthy ,,, due to space limitataions it cannot take weapons in internal bay and if weapons are outside there is not stealth ...

Have you seen Advance Super Hornet and Silent Eagle concept of carrying weapons in weapons pod??

Same can be done for Stealthy JFT.

 

[Liquidmetal]

The delivery of the first batch (1701-1704) could start in late 2017.
View attachment 420888
Myanmar

What a beautifiul shot, the colour scheme makes the jet look sleeker and cleaner...

 

[CriticalThought]

1. First JF-17B will join PAF in December.
2. Till Sep 2017, 90 JF-17 have rolled out of PAC.

http://quwa.org/2017/08/31/profile-avic-pac-jf-17-thunder/

 

[CriticalThought]

What's the difference between FADEC and DEEC?

@gambit @F-22Raptor @Oscar @messiach @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Gomig-21

 

[MastanKhan]

Brother don't drag it , what @araz is saying is absolutely correct and there is nothing we can do about it ... there is no aggression we can do in air and sea,,, the only aggression we can do is on land and for that agression, we need air cover and open sea lanes ... due to the huge military budget, we cannot compete India in technology intensive field i.e. air and sea and we have to use A2/AD methods whereas our main offensive is to be done the on ground ... that is the way to fight 5 times bigger force ... This is not a loosing strategy but the strategy to defeat 5 times bigger army ...

Hi,

Can you guide me to the original post to see why this reaction.

Yar.
But people will listen to dreamers rather than pragmatic sould like me.
A

Sir,

Pragmatism does not build nations---.

The Battle Belongs To Us---The Victory Belongs To Allah