JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[Bratva]

You seem more convinced than the Indians, training although good as it is to hone skills but the objective difference is ..... boards don't hit back..... besides as @Munir said, Indians are no Israelis.... besides more than the arm chair generals, those at helm go quietly about their business without throwing their arms in the air or chest thumping.

The less said the better.

I'm convinced that PAF has 1 week fighting capability and capable of delivering bloody nose only to IAF.

Capability of those at helm were observed in Kamra fiasco when 75 percent of our AWAC fleet rendered ineffective. If this how they manage their assets, than God knows how would they manage it during an all out warfare in India

 

[Windjammer]

I'm convinced that PAF has 1 week fighting capability and capable of delivering bloody nose only to IAF.

Capability of those at helm were observed in Kamra fiasco when 75 percent of our AWAC fleet rendered ineffective. If this how they manage their assets, than God knows how would they manage it during an all out warfare in India

While at it, why not make it consider it 100 % lost....suddenly from battlefront the argument declines to terrorism, then i guess the Americans come out worst who couldn't even save a symbol of their power.
Dude, the tragedy or maybe even a ploy is that PAF has gone very secretive, our neighbour once shot down a Tornado during an exercise and despite mutual agreement not to disclose anything to media, the opening lines by their OC were congratulating the contingent for the achievement.....PAF OTOH, despite some notable scores hasn't given any official statements and if Alan Warnes was to disclose what weapon patch he was once gifted, it would leave many jaw drops.... hence don't take everything at face value.

 

[Inception-06]

Capability of those at helm were observed in Kamra fiasco when 75 percent of our AWAC fleet rendered ineffective. If this how they manage their assets, than God knows how would they manage it during an all out warfare in India

That is a very important argument and Idea !

 

[Munir]

The problem is that people get easy titles and when you start discussion on bases of that title you get annoyed that the other person is not even able to handle basic knowledge. Besides that you have tons of Indian nationalists that are given free pass. Surely nice for add income but the whole circus is given two results:

1. seniors move away to other forums or even worse.. Decide to stay away...
2. the quality of this forum goes down to the level of British tabloid..

I am not owner of this forum nor do I make financial contribution. But I am one of those few that post here since the beginning and I have seen tons of very capable seniors go. This situation at the moment will somehow become not much better if policy stay the same. Cash rules.

 

[Chak Bamu]

The problem is that people get easy titles and when you start discussion on bases of that title you get annoyed that the other person is not even able to handle basic knowledge. Besides that you have tons of Indian nationalists that are given free pass. Surely nice for add income but the whole circus is given two results:

1. seniors move away to other forums or even worse.. Decide to stay away...
2. the quality of this forum goes down to the level of British tabloid..

I am not owner of this forum nor do I make financial contribution. But I am one of those few that post here since the beginning and I have seen tons of very capable seniors go. This situation at the moment will somehow become not much better if policy stay the same. Cash rules.

Titles are not given for Cash contributions. A little self-criticism does not hurt. This forum is alive because of diversity of opinion, otherwise it would be like PakDef with a dozen people posting semi-actively and an imposed conformity of opinion that throttles any dissent.

The cost of keeping discussion alive is to put up with newbies and some poeple whose concepts are not very clear. There are plenty of trolls here too of various nationalities, including Pakistani. We just have to deal with that as best as we can.

 

[MastanKhan]

Range of MKI BVR is 100-110 KM. In a head on engagement, MKI would fire towards JF-17 and would disengage. Reaction times, No escape zone is considered where someone is going for a definite kill. While the scenario here is deterring the opponent aircraft from coming near to IAF sortie. Giving them time to escape or do what they come from. A BVR truck providing distraction while letting other do the job

Hi,

At maximum range that missile has a 25% chance of a kill---you need to look into the distance where the kill ratio would be 90%.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Hi,

At maximum range that missile has a 25% chance of a kill---you need to look into the distance where the kill ratio would be 90%.

That too against a lumbering slow speed turbo prop plane with no missile early warning receiver.
Against a maneuverable fighter plane with Early warning receiver, this distance fell short to almost WVR. The record says it all..

 

[shaheenmissile]

I'm convinced that PAF has 1 week fighting capability and capable of delivering bloody nose only to IAF.

Capability of those at helm were observed in Kamra fiasco when 75 percent of our AWAC fleet rendered ineffective. If this how they manage their assets, than God knows how would they manage it during an all out warfare in India

Your info about Erieye is much outdated and flawed.Try talking about something you know of,instead of something you don't have any clue.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Capability of those at helm were observed in Kamra fiasco when 75 percent of our AWAC fleet rendered ineffective. If this how they manage their assets, than God knows how would they manage it during an all out warfare in India

The topic here is JF-17, and not attack on Kamra. PAF is about flying combat missions, not COIN, not Law & Order, not garrisoning multiple companies of Army people to keep bases safe. If anyone expects them to do this much then they ought to look at resources given to PAF for this specific purpose. 'Those at the helm' are decision makers who make budgets and allocate funds. Not PAF staff.

Range of MKI BVR is 100-110 KM. In a head on engagement, MKI would fire towards JF-17 and would disengage. Reaction times, No escape zone is considered where someone is going for a definite kill. While the scenario here is deterring the opponent aircraft from coming near to IAF sortie. Giving them time to escape or do what they come from. A BVR truck providing distraction while letting other do the job

There is no guarantee that a BVR truck itself can not be at massive risk. An missile laden aircraft with near about 20 sq. M of radar cross-section can be a truck, but not be as effective a fighter. Moreover, if an in-coming package can have top-cover, so can the defending party. If anything the defenders probably have it easier for various reasons. In my view BVR scenario suits defenders more than aggressors, and that is the value of JF-17 for us. When even the Lo component has BVR capability, intruders are not going to feel safe.

Reportedly, Block III incorporates seriously improved frontal stealth, and with that we can effectively deter any number of MKIs. Imagine a stealthy JF-17 carrying 'only' 2 BVRs vs MKI BVR truck. Which one would detect and shoot first? Which one has a greater chance of scoring a kill?

 

[Bilal.]

@Chak Bamu as per @Oscar all those stories about frontal stealth design are just myths. Till now he has been quite accurate on what he says.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@Chak Bamu as per @Oscar all those stories about frontal stealth design are just myths. Till now he has been quite accurate on what he says.

Let us see. I do not consider anything final until definitive specifications are actually know.

 

[Dazzler]

MKI has reportedly 200-220 KM detection range for 5 m^2. For 3 M^2 would be 150-160 KM. JF-17 has 130 Km and 112 KM for 5 and 3 m^2. SD-10 A has 80- 100 KM range. It means we can' launch SD-10 A before 100 KM mark. Long before we launch SD-10 A, MKI would have launched it's missile and would be long gone.


A fully loaded MKI would be detected at most 120-130 KM range while a fully loaded JF-17 with a 3-4 M^2 would be detected at 150-160 KM. Do the maths who would fire a first short and who would be forced to disengage from the battle first.

Chinese SU- series are not as heavily upgraded as Indian SU- series. Hence the feel good stories would be little off the mark when discussing Indian SU and JF-17 scenario

russian sources have quoted its range for 5m2 around 140 km, for 3m2, less than 120km, r77xx cant be fired beyond 70-80km. i can go on in length but offtopic stuff.

what "people" dont get knocked in heads is that awacs have negated the need for detecting a fighter through fighter, on both sides. either way, mki is a hugely overrated plane, the malaysian mkm is more improved version of mki in some sub syTems, russians admit this but indians call it trashand what not, why?? cuz mki is "made in india"..

sorry mods but this had to be said.

 

[hkdas]

russian sources have quoted its range for 5m2 around 140 km, for 3m2, less than 120km, r77xx cant be fired beyond 70-80km. i can go on in length but offtopic stuff.

what "people" dont get knocked in heads is that awacs have negated the need for detecting a fighter through fighter, on both sides. either way, mki is a hugely overrated plane, the malaysian mkm is more improved version of mki in some sub syTems, russians admit this but indians call it trashand what not, why?? cuz mki is "made in india"..

sorry mods but this had to be said.

any link to your clam?? ... no one other than pakistanis had ever said mik is inferior to Malaysian mkm even sukhoi company had said that MKI is the most advanced fighter Russian had ever exported... india customized su-30 to create best fighter sukhoi can offer.. it is fitted with Israeli, french, indian, and russian avionics.. india choose the best for su 30mki. mkm only have french and Russian components.

 

[nomi007]

excellent performance by thunders in north wazirestan

 

[Bratva]

The topic here is JF-17, and not attack on Kamra. PAF is about flying combat missions, not COIN, not Law & Order, not garrisoning multiple companies of Army people to keep bases safe. If anyone expects them to do this much then they ought to look at resources given to PAF for this specific purpose. 'Those at the helm' are decision makers who make budgets and allocate funds. Not PAF staff.



There is no guarantee that a BVR truck itself can not be at massive risk. An missile laden aircraft with near about 20 sq. M of radar cross-section can be a truck, but not be as effective a fighter. Moreover, if an in-coming package can have top-cover, so can the defending party. If anything the defenders probably have it easier for various reasons. In my view BVR scenario suits defenders more than aggressors, and that is the value of JF-17 for us. When even the Lo component has BVR capability, intruders are not going to feel safe.

Reportedly, Block III incorporates seriously improved frontal stealth, and with that we can effectively deter any number of MKIs. Imagine a stealthy JF-17 carrying 'only' 2 BVRs vs MKI BVR truck. Which one would detect and shoot first? Which one has a greater chance of scoring a kill?

1. Hence I moved discussion to another thread.

2. Bamu sahab, RCS reduction depends upon shaping and construction material, There are no plans to increase the percentage of composites or to shape the JF-17. Block-2 Swash Plate Radar already increases RCS value and it is most likely the AESA would be Swashplate too ( If they choose Selex Aesa). In a standard cap mission, 2 WVR+2 BVR + 1 drop tank does it make JF-17 any stealthy? In present configuration keeping radar detection capabilities of both aircraft in mind and both being fully loaded , Which Aircraft would detect and shoot first ?

A BVR truck forces the hand of defenders by firing it's 8-10 BVR missiles at a range of 70-80 KM. Defender would fire 3-4 BVR missiles towards SU. SU turns, full throttles, exit the kill zone of missile. While those 8-10 BVR missiles fired towards let's say a formation of 6-8 Jets, wouldn't they try to exit kill zone of BVR as well ?

By the time Block III arrives, Our adversary SU- would already had AESA or integrating AESA on older SU's. Another addition would Astra Smokeless BVR. Though Performance parameters of SD-10 and Astra are similar but where it has plus point is in it's smokeless motore, JF-17 MAWS would not be able to detect smokeless Astra as UV based MAWS only works with missiles having smoke motor.Addition of another variable in complex equation.

russian sources have quoted its range for 5m2 around 140 km, for 3m2, less than 120km, r77xx cant be fired beyond 70-80km. i can go on in length but offtopic stuff.

what "people" dont get knocked in heads is that awacs have negated the need for detecting a fighter through fighter, on both sides. either way, mki is a hugely overrated plane, the malaysian mkm is more improved version of mki in some sub syTems, russians admit this but indians call it trashand what not, why?? cuz mki is "made in india"..

sorry mods but this had to be said.

Primitive figures. Indian sources quote the range of their Bars at 200 KM. Mini-Awacs term wouldn't had been coined if it can detect 5 m^2 at 140 KM. I did some research, Indian R-77 version is 80-100 KM. 100 Being launched from a higher altitude

The scenario that is being discussed here is JF-17 SU-30, one on one engagement, who would detect and shoot first, and who would force the other to disengage.