JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[Chak Bamu]

Is it time for a low-cost stealth fighter? Why air arms won’t see sense | Hush-Kit

"Other aircraft in its category include the endlessly postponed Tejas from India and the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17. It is easy to criticise the Tejas, an aircraft inferior to Gripen in almost every respect until its origin is looked at. India’s last indigenous fighter was designed by Kurt Tank! "
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"The JF-17 is hardly the most capable fighter in the world, but it may point the way forward. Compared to other fighters in production, it is cheap. Its performance is fine. A ‘silent’ JF-17 is the kind of fighter that air forces want. The first nation to produce an affordable, exportable fighter of this kind could be in a very strong position. The closest aircraft to meeting this need could be the J-10B or perhaps the J-31, if it’s price is kept in check. With rumours of a smaller aircraft based on the aerodynamic configuration of PAK FA, perhaps MiG RAC ( a weak and endangered company) could produce the aircraft air arms actually need."

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The above are excerpts from the above-linked article, as they pertain to JF-17.

Indian posters need not get upset, the article actually praises Indian achievements of the future.

There have been rumors of a 'stealth' version of JF-17. Obviously if true, these rumors could point to a redesign perhaps beyond JF-17 Block III. That would be a new aircraft that carries FC-1/JF-17 philosophy into stealth territory. My intention in alluding to this rumor is only to point out a relevance to this article when it talks about a 'silent JF-17'. This could also refer to Block III, but nobody outside of PAF and CAC knows what specifications it has. As far as I know (via @Munir) the specifications are generally settled with design work going forward. A number of features are being updated. Who knows it might be a 'silent' design with RCS much less than 1 sq. M. I know fellow posters are going to point to the presence of drop tanks, missiles, & munitions. I just wanted to give the rumor mills a few revs.

 

[Bratva]

Is it time for a low-cost stealth fighter? Why air arms won’t see sense | Hush-Kit

"Other aircraft in its category include the endlessly postponed Tejas from India and the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17. It is easy to criticise the Tejas, an aircraft inferior to Gripen in almost every respect until its origin is looked at. India’s last indigenous fighter was designed by Kurt Tank! "
.
.
.
"The JF-17 is hardly the most capable fighter in the world, but it may point the way forward. Compared to other fighters in production, it is cheap. Its performance is fine. A ‘silent’ JF-17 is the kind of fighter that air forces want. The first nation to produce an affordable, exportable fighter of this kind could be in a very strong position. The closest aircraft to meeting this need could be the J-10B or perhaps the J-31, if it’s price is kept in check. With rumours of a smaller aircraft based on the aerodynamic configuration of PAK FA, perhaps MiG RAC ( a weak and endangered company) could produce the aircraft air arms actually need."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above are excerpts from the above-linked article, as they pertain to JF-17.

Indian posters need not get upset, the article actually praises Indian achievements of the future.

There have been rumors of a 'stealth' version of JF-17. Obviously if true, these rumors could point to a redesign perhaps beyond JF-17 Block III. That would be a new aircraft that carries FC-1/JF-17 philosophy into stealth territory. My intention in alluding to this rumor is only to point out a relevance to this article when it talks about a 'silent JF-17'. This could also refer to Block III, but nobody outside of PAF and CAC knows what specifications it has. As far as I know (via @Munir) the specifications are generally settled with design work going forward. A number of features are being updated. Who knows it might be a 'silent' design with RCS much less than 1 sq. M. I know fellow posters are going to point to the presence of drop tanks, missiles, & munitions. I just wanted to give the rumor mills a few revs.

Bamu sahab, We have to consider funding crunches as well. 2011-2012 is an example how a program setback could occur due to low funds and situation hasn't improved drastically. No wonder if certain design parameters are dropped.

 

[Munir]

Zarvan : There is no relationship between the Palestinian issue and recognizing a state that is there since your Pakistan is there. What will you get out of not recognizing? What did you get sofar? And if you care about Palestinians then guess what Pakistani did to them in Jordan. Musharraf did a brave attempt to mediate between the ISraeli and the Palestinians... He was pushed to reality. Let us not make holy and judge others. Certainly if we cannot change a damn thing. Look at serbs and muslim Bosnians. We helped them but no one cares about us. The same serbs that killed the Bosnians we now are dealing with even when it comes to JF17. Why not talking to Israel?

Munir Sahib, then why is it we are not seeing JF-17 in full combat role?

It has nothing to do with that, I think. It takes years to test and improve. It takes months to test every weapon. We kind of chose the path of getting into service and improve every batch. We could no longer wait cause there was frankly no alternative. You could do it the Indian way. Extremely high expectations and never get it finished.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Bamu sahab, We have to consider funding crunches as well. 2011-2012 is an example how a program setback could occur due to low funds and situation hasn't improved drastically. No wonder if certain design parameters are dropped.

Because of financial situation, somethings would just take longer my friend. But they will happen. If you read the article, you would understand the logic behind my speculations. We have a 2-seat version waiting for an order. We would not invest in it by ourselves since we have no money. But if we are able to market JF-17 effectively, we could see some serious development. That is the logic behind GOP pushing PAF to make a sales effort. Had there not been a serious push, Dubai Air Show 2013 might have passed by like Farnborough, Paris, etc...

Our product is good enough that it receives a positive endorsement from an aviation journalist. If we do not believe in its future, then who will? I understand financial problems, but that does not have to be an impediment for development of JF-17 as a capable and hopefully mass-produced combat system. We do have the option for making it a partly self-financing program. We would just be slower in adopting it for ourselves.

@Munir, let us not make this a political thread. I enjoy your posts, but do not agree with your views on Israel. Let us take is elsewhere as a thread in some other section.

 

[BATMAN]

http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2013/12/6/commander_jordanian_air_force_appreciates_jf-17.htm

Commander Royal Jordanian Air Force, Major General Malek Salameh Obeidallah Al-Habashneh along with the delegation of Royal Jordanian Air Force visited Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra on Thursday.

The delegation was briefed about various factories and facilities at PAC Kamra.

The delegation visited Avionics Production Factory and Aircraft Manufacturing Factory where they took keen interest in the Final Assembly Line and Flight Testing facilities of JF-17 Thunder and Super Mushshak aircraft.

Commander Royal Jordanian Air Force, Major General Malek Salameh Obeidallah Al-Habashneh especially appreciated the production capability of the JF-17 Thunder Project, said a press release issued here.

Earlier, on his arrival he was received by Air Marshal Sohail Gul Khan, Chairman PAC Board Kamra, who introduced the members of PAC Board and Managing Directors to the Royal Jordanian Air Chief.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra being the leading Aviation Industry, has placed Pakistan amongst the elite group of countries that also manufacture fighter aircraft.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Because of financial situation, somethings would just take longer my friend. But they will happen. If you read the article, you would understand the logic behind my speculations. We have a 2-seat version waiting for an order. We would not invest in it by ourselves since we have no money. But if we are able to market JF-17 effectively, we could see some serious development. That is the logic behind GOP pushing PAF to make a sales effort. Had there not been a serious push, Dubai Air Show 2013 might have passed by like Farnborough, Paris, etc...
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I doubt it.

Technology on birds is always changing, a late addition is almost as bad as no addition, the delay is precious time lost, time lost where the enemy expands it's fleet and modernizes.

So far our economy shows poor recovery and there is no indication of change, by the time we do recover (which if things go to plan wont be before 2016-2017) the technologies we considered back in 2010-2011 lose their potency among contenders.

Time is precious when it come to tech, delays are unaffordable (excuse the pun).

 

[Superboy]

My take is that Block 2 features a redesigned nose incorporating a new AESA, a new wide angle holographic HUD replacing the current HUD, a new IRST. Did F/A-18E change nose when it replaced mechanically scanning radar with AESA?

 

[Chak Bamu]

sir Israel will never be recognized sir and Palestinian issue is key to world peace and until Palestinian brothers get land with Jerusalem as capital their will be no recognition only recognition is that it is just an enemy like India

Please do not derail the thread. If someone goes off-topic, do not go chasing them down the side street. I agree with what you are saying, but let us have such a discussion on an appropriate thread in an appropriate section.

@Jungibaaz, I understand your concern about technology etc... But beggars can not be choosers. For the sake of high tech toys, we can not afford to ignore or further degrade our development indicators such as education, medical services, & infrastructure without which we can not improve our economy.

We need to be creative in addressing our problems and needs. I have already stated that GOP pushing for export of JF-17 is the right thing to do in these circumstances, but as already observed PAF seems to be dragging its feet.

Pakistan's economy would only get back onto growth track when we solve our energy problem. We can not expect improvements in Agriculture, Manufacturing, and even services unless we are energy-secure. That is probably not going to happen until 2016. I expect an improvement in PAF situation only by 2018, provided political situation does not deteriorate.

 

[Gryphon]

JF-17 (serial: 13-144) is now in flight testing.

Photo source: Pakistan State Times (Print Edition/6 November 2013).

 

[ZohaibMumtaz]

JF-17 (serial: 13-144)

what is mean is 144 mean we have 144 JF-17 thunder planes?

 

[trident2010]

Is it time for a low-cost stealth fighter? Why air arms won’t see sense | Hush-Kit

"Other aircraft in its category include the endlessly postponed Tejas from India and the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17. It is easy to criticise the Tejas, an aircraft inferior to Gripen in almost every respect until its origin is looked at. India’s last indigenous fighter was designed by Kurt Tank! "
.
.
.
"The JF-17 is hardly the most capable fighter in the world, but it may point the way forward. Compared to other fighters in production, it is cheap. Its performance is fine. A ‘silent’ JF-17 is the kind of fighter that air forces want. The first nation to produce an affordable, exportable fighter of this kind could be in a very strong position. The closest aircraft to meeting this need could be the J-10B or perhaps the J-31, if it’s price is kept in check. With rumours of a smaller aircraft based on the aerodynamic configuration of PAK FA, perhaps MiG RAC ( a weak and endangered company) could produce the aircraft air arms actually need."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above are excerpts from the above-linked article, as they pertain to JF-17.

Indian posters need not get upset, the article actually praises Indian achievements of the future.

There have been rumors of a 'stealth' version of JF-17. Obviously if true, these rumors could point to a redesign perhaps beyond JF-17 Block III. That would be a new aircraft that carries FC-1/JF-17 philosophy into stealth territory. My intention in alluding to this rumor is only to point out a relevance to this article when it talks about a 'silent JF-17'. This could also refer to Block III, but nobody outside of PAF and CAC knows what specifications it has. As far as I know (via @Munir) the specifications are generally settled with design work going forward. A number of features are being updated. Who knows it might be a 'silent' design with RCS much less than 1 sq. M. I know fellow posters are going to point to the presence of drop tanks, missiles, & munitions. I just wanted to give the rumor mills a few revs.

Nothing much in the article just emphasis on low cost light weight stealth fighter. It is very difficult to make silent gripen, tejas or jf-17 as a update. Everything needs to be redesign from scratch.

 

[Munir]

what is mean is 144 mean we have 144 JF-17 thunder planes?

[13] : acceptance 2013 (fiscal year)
[144] : first batch number 44

I do not think it is being tested. It is already waiting to be painted in squadron markings.

So the block2 first plane will be

13-201

 

[ZohaibMumtaz]

[13] : acceptance 2013 (fiscal year)
[144] : first batch number 44

I do not think it is being tested. It is already waiting to be painted in squadron markings.

So the block2 first plane will be

13-201

how much thunders we have ????

 

[Jungibaaz]

@Jungibaaz, I understand your concern about technology etc... But beggars can not be choosers. For the sake of high tech toys, we can not afford to ignore or further degrade our development indicators such as education, medical services, & infrastructure without which we can not improve our economy.

We need to be creative in addressing our problems and needs. I have already stated that GOP pushing for export of JF-17 is the right thing to do in these circumstances, but as already observed PAF seems to be dragging its feet.

Don't get me wrong matey. I agree with what you've said.
Over spending to compensate is very wrong, ideally our spending on defence should be less than 3% of the GDP. That's if I had it my way.

But my point was, that you cannot assume that late technology will give you the kind of boost that one time would, time erodes tech advantages and disadvantages disproportionately.

 

[Munir]

I think people underestimate the way western nations push themselves on top of technology level and not willing to share that. So either you can stay poor and sell only raw material, buy expensive technology and stay slave or invest a lot more and become independent. I think we Pakistani know that the last option is probably the only one. And the same goes for military equipment. They either will not sell, degrade it or you better start making yourself... In that case we indeed have to invest but we will get improvement in every sector thanks to these investment.