JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[TaimiKhan]

No need to, it's just kind of interesting that a mod delete a post that does not had biased, offensive, or wrong points about the JF 17, but keeps the last post of jagjitnatt, that was full of it. I did not support all his claims, but provided sources for those parts which was correct.
My intention was not to downgrade the JF 17, but there are points like the t/w ratio, or the lack of composite materials, where the it lacks behind. So can we post only good points about it in this thread, or can we discuss also its downsides too?

You brought in the LCA, thus it got deleted but have restored it and given you the reply also.

And you or some of your other Indian counterparts not all of them, intention is not to degrade JF-17, but inadvertently that is what you guys do. While some do it on purpose.

It may have less T/W ratio and not many composites, but do remember, it has just gotten into production. We badly need replacements for our 2nd generation aircraft which have served PAF for decades and need replacement. A-5s, F-7Ps, Mirages and other stuff, and JF-17 with less T/W ratio and all metal body is still generations ahead of what it is replacing. That is the point to ponder about, if it had been inferior to what it is replacing, then your and others like you viewpoint had been valid, but since our air force officials confirming that it is not going to be our front line fighter and is going to be our work horse fighter and replacing the decades old aircraft in our service, JF-17 is the perfect choice and great achievement.

Let time pass, let it get more mature and let the future variants come into service, they would be more effective and deadly compared to this one.

And once again, what we read on net is not the whole story about JF-17, there are many things which we don't know yet or what is its development program or what is JF-17s full capability, but as for now, PAF guys are happy with it. It has surpassed the bench mark set for it and exceeded the expectations and is the most maneuverable aircraft in our service and has beaten our current front line F-16 fighter in simulated dog fights.

So with such results, it is more then what it was made for.

Its going to be a work horse for now, not a front line fighter.

They are inducted, operational and on way to increase in numbers.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Rather than trolling, why don't you counter my statements?

Tell me where I am wrong, and I shall accept it provided you backup your claim from a neutral credible source.

I didn't expect this behavior from a mod, but anyways, counter me and that's discussion, joke around, that would be stupidity.

Mod being doesn't means we can't have a light moment on the forum. I did not used any insulting words for anyone, nor abused anyone, or racist comments. We were having our own light moment and laughing about something, it doesn't concerns you.

And as for countering you or others like you, will it has been done hundred of times, and even if we keep doing, it will change nothing.

You and your other counterparts would keep having the same pessimistic views and see JF-17 same as currently seen by you.

As told in my above posts, for what role JF-17 was made, it has fully satisfied that role, rather has risen above the expectations. It is more then enough.

And that role was to have a decent fighter which can replace the 2nd gen, decades old PAF inventory, and JF-17 is at least 2 generations ahead of what it is going to replace. So that role JF-17 has fulfilled, and again, its inducted, operational and increasing in numbers.

So no matter what you guys have to say about it, its flying and doing its job with satisfaction.

 

[farhan_9909]

how do you know about the composites thing?
It would require huge structural changes. Almost a complete redesign. Since the density of composites is different the whole center of gravity would shift. In order to maintain optimum balance, structural changes would be required.
Also composites can not be installed like metal parts. The manufacturing facility for composites is entirely different.

If composites were ever in mind of PAF designers, they would have done it much earlier in design phase, not now when the product is rolling on production lines. This would be an economical and logistical disaster.

China bought 100 RD33 engines in 2005 to install on FC-1/JF-17 aircraft. So the first 100 JF-17 will use that engine.

BTW, WS-13 has a max thrust of just 86KN, just a little more than the current engine.

The improved WS-13 is still under development. It will take a year or two to develop and then testing and trials would take another year. So no new WS-13 before 3 years. If you want a new engine before 3 years you'll have to go with the regular WS-13 but it doesn't provide a huge difference in thrust.

only for using composite material it will need a whole redesign?

It is said that after first 50 the aircraft wil use different engine..
so it will...
Ws-13 is tested on jf-17 a month back and the news frm a chineese source was posted here.
and the test engine will be the one with 100Kn..because the simple ws-13 is already..
so With 100KN is already tested on jf-17 and by the time after 50..it will be 100% ready.

 

[jagjitnatt]

You brought in the LCA, thus it got deleted but have restored it and given you the reply also.

And you or some of your other Indian counterparts not all of them, intention is not to degrade JF-17, but inadvertently that is what you guys do. While some do it on purpose.

It may have less T/W ratio and not many composites, but do remember, it has just gotten into production. We badly need replacements for our 2nd generation aircraft which have served PAF for decades and need replacement. A-5s, F-7Ps, Mirages and other stuff, and JF-17 with less T/W ratio and all metal body is still generations ahead of what it is replacing. That is the point to ponder about, if it had been inferior to what it is replacing, then your and others like you viewpoint had been valid, but since our air force officials confirming that it is not going to be our front line fighter and is going to be our work horse fighter and replacing the decades old aircraft in our service, JF-17 is the perfect choice and great achievement.

Let time pass, let it get more mature and let the future variants come into service, they would be more effective and deadly compared to this one.

And once again, what we read on net is not the whole story about JF-17, there are many things which we don't know yet or what is its development program or what is JF-17s full capability, but as for now, PAF guys are happy with it. It has surpassed the bench mark set for it and exceeded the expectations and is the most maneuverable aircraft in our service and has beaten our current front line F-16 fighter in simulated dog fights.

So with such results, it is more then what it was made for.

Its going to be a work horse for now, not a front line fighter.

They are inducted, operational and on way to increase in numbers.

We are not degrading JF-17. At several moments I've praised it for what it is. It's a good replacement for the 3rd gen aircraft and brings to the table a lot more than what PAF could ask for.

Its a great fighter for the price. But there are members who think JF-17 is the ultimate fighter and start comparing it to MKI and F-16. That is where they make stupid assumptions about it like AESA, composites, AMRAAM, modular design etc.

Its a great fighter to make up the low end of the PAF, and F-16 does the job at the high end. Both kind of aircraft are extremely important. Where high end aircraft present quality, low end have the advantage of quantity.

LCA is also a low end offering for the IAF, and is no way a superb fighter. But its amazing in the low end category. And it should not be compared to high end aircraft. Have you ever seen us comparing LCA to Rafale, MKI, F16 or any high end plane? That would be stupid to do. LCA would have no chance of surviving against them. Same is true for JF-17

Instead of joining the uninformed people, you should educate them about the aircraft. Tell them where it stands and what its true capabilities are.

 

[marcos98]

Goodness me Sardar Ji, have you even bothered to read the entire thread. The first squadron has been raised and is complete. Before the High Mark Excercise it had completed 500 sorties. It has been tested against the F16 several times, not one but several members have disclosed this. I have personally talked to a PAF squadron leader who told me this. So far the results have been in favour of JF17 in dogfights, the pilots have found it to be more maneuverable and has a better turning ratio but the F16 is more agile. Keep in mind the Block 15 is the most manuverable and agile out of the entire F16 Series. For A2G, it was put through the grind during High Mark and also has seen action in Orkazai and Waziristan. I dont know why do you make up your own facts, its better to research before writing horse sh**.



High Mark 2010 and Bombings Runs in Waziristan/Orkazai



Indeed F16 is a beautiful aircraft, simply of the best aircrafts ever designed and built. PAF loves and adores this aircraft and that is why the numbers for this aircraft speak for themselves. It can definitely not be compared to the Block 52 but its certinely better than our Block 15. JF17's avionics can be compared to the avionics of Block 40.



Right now the bulk of manufacturing is done in China but slowly it will be moved to Pakistan. As far as the engines are concerned, PAF technicians will be trained to deal with the RD93. Has PAF been sending the PW's to the US for the past 30 years, NO they have the capacity to overhaul it in Kamra.



These are not basic avionics, they can only been seen in Aircrafts belonging to the 4th Generation and not 3rd. The A5's, F7's and Non Rose Mirages dont have these capabilities and JF17 will be replacing these aircrafts. So overall, this Aircraft will be a huge leap forward for PAF.



AESA; well the Italians have offered it and the Chinese are also in the final stages of testing, 15 years does not sounds like an accurate number.
IRST wouldnt be much of a problem, JF17 is designed in such a way to easily accomodate changes.



Inaccurate How



With all the Avionics, Radar and Munitions that the JF17 features you still think its not a 4th Generation Aircraft . The radar for JF17 is an upgraded KLJ 7 which is a Pulse Doppler, Multi Mode Fire Control Radar with a reported range of around 150 km. Murad Sahab disclosed quite a while ago that JF17 will not be using the basic KLJ 7 radar. Seems to me Sardar Jii your Nationalistic Pride is getting the best of your judgement .

What is exactly a 4.5th Generation Aircraft, do you want to go with the defintion of Wikipedia. "aircraft that have AESA radar, high capacity data-link, enhanced avionics and the ability to deploy reasonably forseeable future weapons."

Besides the SuperHornet and Desert Falcon; there is no Operational aircraft in this world that has this capability, not even the BIG BAD SU30MKI and thats a fact Sardar Ji not something i made up

The arguments have no internal validity and specific links. The entirety of the argument is based upon "trust me" I know things and you guys are crap. Not a very convincing argument and a lousy debate tactic. Very few of the posters ( read mastansab et al)here are in a position to compare the value of any system in relation to others. The nationalistic tone here has become way over the top. A great example is the guy who just "knows" that JF17 is more robust and effective than LCA, when both the systems have to prove themselves . it amazes me to see pak friends vehemently argue that LCA still is a paper plane........i mean its ridicules to hang in the same argument , because LCA soon will get IOC followed by FOC,with both the IAF and IN fully supporting the programme.........

 

[wangrong]

China bought 100 RD33 engines in 2005 to install on FC-1/JF-17 aircraft. So the first 100 JF-17 will use that engine.
QUOTE]



at least 2:1

the first 50 JF-17s will use 100 engines.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/wqxS_KCS6lo/

 

[jagjitnatt]

China bought 100 RD33 engines in 2005 to install on FC-1/JF-17 aircraft. So the first 100 JF-17 will use that engine.
QUOTE]



at least 2:1

the first 50 JF-17s will use 100 engines.

How, 50 planes with 100 engines???

 

[Aslan]

@ marcos98


And still you are doing the same thing, and by the way it is not an LCA thread nor a comparison one.

@Jag

I have a question for you. You are rebuffing every ones arguments, even if they are saying that they have a first hand info from the people who are related to the JF project. And yet you chose to believe what the internet is telling you about it the information that can very well be fabricated. Now we can just not go on and chose what we like can we.

 

[wangrong]

How, 50 planes with 100 engines???

Make the minimum storage of spare parts

 

[jagjitnatt]

I have a question for you. You are rebuffing every ones arguments, even if they are saying that they have a first hand info from the people who are related to the JF project. And yet you chose to believe what the internet is telling you about it the information that can very well be fabricated. Now we can just not go on and chose what we like can we.

yaar, I haven't met a single person with first hand experience with JF. If anybody had an experience he would have been able to explain to me what all equipment it had and what makes it exceptional.

Even the ones who claim to have first hand experience are quoting from fanboy sites and blogs.

There is no one on the forum who has any experience with either the JF or its manufacturing facility.

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 AM ----------

Make the minimum storage of spare parts

spare parts are at most 20% of the operational aircraft. 100% is just absurd.

 

[Aslan]

yaar, I haven't met a single person with first hand experience with JF. If anybody had an experience he would have been able to explain to me what all equipment it had and what makes it exceptional.

Even the ones who claim to have first hand experience are quoting from fanboy sites and blogs.

There is no one on the forum who has any experience with either the JF or its manufacturing facility.

I didnt mean the actual pilots coming here and giving us details, that is surely not going to happen. I was talking about the people who had talked to those pilots. Khair lets wait and see. The thing is that so many things are just shrouded in secrecy when it comes to any military developments in any country that we can never be sure about the exact truth.

 

[TaimiKhan]

We are not degrading JF-17. At several moments I've praised it for what it is. It's a good replacement for the 3rd gen aircraft and brings to the table a lot more than what PAF could ask for.

Its a great fighter for the price. But there are members who think JF-17 is the ultimate fighter and start comparing it to MKI and F-16. That is where they make stupid assumptions about it like AESA, composites, AMRAAM, modular design etc.

Its a great fighter to make up the low end of the PAF, and F-16 does the job at the high end. Both kind of aircraft are extremely important. Where high end aircraft present quality, low end have the advantage of quantity.

LCA is also a low end offering for the IAF, and is no way a superb fighter. But its amazing in the low end category. And it should not be compared to high end aircraft. Have you ever seen us comparing LCA to Rafale, MKI, F16 or any high end plane? That would be stupid to do. LCA would have no chance of surviving against them. Same is true for JF-17

Instead of joining the uninformed people, you should educate them about the aircraft. Tell them where it stands and what its true capabilities are.

Well I have to see the praise from the other side, which I haven't and especially from you haven't seen it.

And there are no stupid assumptions about it. It will get AESA radar, more composites, it has modular structure, meaning not restricted to only one thing in field of avionics and radar.

And as told again and again and read the Chinese manufacturer promo also, the export variants of Chinese radars and weapon systems are made based on Western MIL-STD-1553 stuff and MIL-STD-1760, so when that is done, it means it can support western weapon system also. If Chinese manufacturers say such thing in international exhibitions, that would not be a lie as they have to prove it also later when someone buys it from them.

Read about JF-17, its whole avionics package, including the radar is based on 1553 standard architecture and weapons store management and hard points communicate through the 1760 standard architecture, thus JF-17 can support western weapon system, even if it AMRAAM.

And as for comparing, JF-17 has been compared to our current F-16s, not the latest ones.

And before accusing me of siding with those who do these comparisons, provide me the posts where I have done the comparison and sided with those. I am waiting for that, as if you don't, that would mean you are the liar here.

So before lecturing me, update your own knowledge about what you are talking about. As your ignorance is not limited to just JF-17s.

I have seen you from day one and seen from where you have learned and from where you post. So don't lecture me.

 

[jagjitnatt]

I didnt mean the actual pilots coming here and giving us details, that is surely not going to happen. I was talking about the people who had talked to those pilots. Khair lets wait and see. The thing is that so many things are just shrouded in secrecy when it comes to any military developments in any country that we can never be sure about the exact truth.

Actual pilots might never come to PDF.
But any person involved in its maintenance or Kamra official would hav ebeen great.

The thing is the we are behind a computer and anybody could be lying. I could say, I am a designer of LCA, no one can prove me wrong, but things like these have no credibility over the internet.

I am always open for discussion on any plane, provided we prove our points.

JF-17 is a great plane. It only gets into trouble when people start comparing it to MKI, Gripen, LCA etc etc.

JF-17 and LCA are in the same category, just minor differences, and the differences are due to tight economic situation in Pakistan right now. But its still a miracle they have been able to come up with a fighter in such situation. We must realize the role of the fighter and then make comparisons, not just for the sake of comparison or to collect thanks, which many members here do.

 

[IndianArmy]

what is the technical support of pakistan In JF-17? could anyone share some light on it.... Like Cockpit design, avionics, softwares... Pakistans contribution... Anyone?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Make the minimum storage of spare parts

Not only storage for spares, lot of engine wear and tear happens during the testing phase. There had been nearly 8 JF-17s in test phase for 2 years, plus 2 confirm prototypes, one old design and one newer one Pt-06 in China doing the testing, thus such testing also needs engines on standby as testing is vigorous and needs spare engines and other stuff.