JF-17 Thunder Block III is no match against Rafale

[Gorgin Khan]

What kind of seeker PL-15 is equipped with? How have you concluded that it is more than a match for Meteor?

Rafale is equipped with powerful Spectra EW suite by default - components installed in the main frame and electronically integrated within.

What if Rafale is able to spoof PL-15 at extreme ranges? Maximum range is great for bragging rights in discussions but a missile may fall short outside the umbrella of comprehensive sensor coverage.

Rafale is far better aircraft than overhyped junks Su-30 and Su-35.

It has an AESA seeker with a speed of Mach 5 and range in excess of 150 kms at least.

 

[Ra's al Ghul]

J-10C / F-16 Newer Block / F-16V ... Something out of these 3 is certainly on the cards. J-10C is the most logical option both keeping in mind finances and future upgrades in mind. Qualitative gap between both air forces is increasing beyond the threshold.

Blk 3 with AESA along PL15 is enough for Rafale we can have couple of Sqds with Salex AESA along EU BVRAAM to give additional dose to these Indiots

Of course a single JF-17 B3 will be no match against Rafaels. But we can throw B3 in larger quantities and will also back them with assets like AWACS and EW Assets. JF-17 B3 will also have PL-15 and an EW suite.
Combine all these factors and you have a potent platform to counter Rafael.

I have complete faith in PAF and its leadership. They are the most competent and professional in all 3 services and certainly far more competent than IAF

I am definite that they have plans and contingencies to counter any threat presented by the enemy

When Holy Prophet died he had good number of swords and nothing much else. Lesson for us.

When corruption of gigantic proportion was happening during PPP and Noon league era, was there anyone with foresight in establishment to realise this will eventually bite the security of Pakistan in the end? While they played being 'intellectual generals' and whatnot? Tolerating Zardari was height of short sightedness. How many billions we lost to unnecessary dead end projects like orange train, brt, metro etc how many billions laundered away as number 1 agency looked on. Don't anybody dare give me expediency as a reason.

Lets face it our Airforce isn't close to be armed adequately. We are surviving because we have a shitty enemy. One day they may improve. Oneday they will outgun and outrange us like in Kargil war. Don't rest on laurels of a limited exchange of feb 27.

History tells us our Armed forces have not been the brightest bunch and beyond rapprochement in all instances so yes you can question them once in a while however standing firmly behind them with positive criticism.

You're underestimating block 3, it will have an AESA radar and could easily be equipped to carry PL-15 missiles, which would be more than a match for the Rafale's Meteor missiles. Of course, there's also the option to purchase Chinese aircraft directly (like J-10s as you said, potentially even 5th gen Chinese aircraft once they become available too).

As for the F-16 fleet, they are still a formidable force in the modern world. They can (and have as well as will) undergo extensive upgrades to boost combat efficiency too.

Don't forget that the IAF can't purchase enough equipment to replace its ageing aircraft either, at least the PAF can mass produce its own to combat such a problem. The IAF on the other hand is unable to.

Prepare your best but save yourself from the doubt - as doubt kills more possibilities than failure ever will.

There are lots of things which India has and more in number or better than Pakistan including the bigger army, more SAMs, more soldiers, more pilots and more of everything. But the humiliation they received on 27th Feb 2019 wasn't visible on the excel sheet where you match range with range and capability with capability.

Calm down. Everything, they possess will be answered in due time. Sit back and relax.

Let's be honest, you have no clue what JF-17 Block III is exactly bringing to the table. You also don't know if its gonna be flying around with PL-15 or not.
The original JF-17 and the F-16C/D were also supposedly inferior to US-30MKI the mini awacs? What happened to that?

Stop matching a machine vs machine, that's dumb way of doing it. The aerial combat is not about JF-17 vs Rafael. It's about how the aerial engagement is conducted, approached, and on whose terms. There is a whole environment of sensors up there and Rafael or not, PAF as an edge with its sensors and with its limited airspace to cover.

Stop putting up cheesy titles to attract attention and then starting with IMHO, in your not so HO the title is the first thing which is based on complete dishonesty because you have no clue yet and thats a fact.

NEW DELHI: A fresh controversy has erupted over India’s Rafale warplanes deal with France, after Kolkata’s Telegraph newspaper broached on Thursday the possibility of Pakistani pilots having trained on similar planes sold to Qatar.

In a follow up to the news item, NDTV checked up with the French embassy about the claim, which denied that Pakistani pilots had been trained to fly the Rafale planes.

The French ‘clarification’ came after ainonline.com, described by NDTV as an independent media firm which focuses on the aviation sector reported that “the first batch of pilots trained for Qatar in November 2017 were Pakistani exchange officers.”

https://www.dawn.com/news/1475589

- The X vs Y comparisons sure are fun when the capabilities of both are known. As of now we don't know the capabilities of JFT BLK III and so a comparison of both whilst declaring one is no match for the other is rather ludicrous to be frank.

- When we talk about 4.5 Generation of aircrafts the conversation goes like this EF-2000, Rafale, SU-35 and GRIPEN NG. Heck Gripen NG was included in the MMRCA for which Rafale was the winner. While being very over simplistic, we can atleast conclude that whilst the heavier aircrafts will have certain edge over the lighter aircrafts, it is rather insulting to dismiss the lighter category of aircrafts altogether. After all, the lighter aircrafts may present advantages of their own say faster turn around times, lower frontal radar cross sections etc.

- Most importantly, when two airforces go head to head, its one wholistic system/organization against another.The 27 Feb episode proves the very fact that if your system has better cohesion, integration and a better Human Resource, even though on face value your numbers and quality is lagging but the results are in your favor. Let's not forget that the same indian fancucks claimed that MKI beat the EF-2000 12-0 in exercises touting it the second best aircraft in the world and what not. After 27th, the statements have changed to "agar raphallleeee hota"

Calm down my dear friend, our armed forces always have an answer. So what you know and are thinking, they are already working on.

Block 3 has an AESA radar which will be coupled with pl15s(150km+). For short range engagements it will be also equipped with HMD and sights with 5th gen short range missiles. So there, I’ve already given you something to research on and feel better.

Probably you are unaware of Mar 1 missiles with Pakistan which we bought from Brazil & are unaware of details mentioned by PAF for thunder. Thunder with AESA Radar, data link & PL-15 backed by awacs should be good enough for any fighter below 5th generation.

Any argument about "matching or not matching" is only up to the minute that the fighter jet enters the battle field.

In 1965, Pakistani Sabres were no match to Indian hunters.
Until 27th Feb 2019, no PAF fighter jet could match SU-30MKI

We all know what happened.

It is well known that PAF does not show its REAL "teeth" and "claws" until they really need to come out.

Wait! ... just wait for "that day"; and you will find out what is a match and what is not.

In an environment like that which the LOC gives, you don't necessarily need a jet which has superior number of hardpoints or range. It's all about placement and approach.

Remember, in a recent simulated exercise, it was a decades old jet which hazed Rafale in WVR combat.

The superiority of a next gen fighter is generally established against older gen jets. But with the Rafale and Block-3, both aircraft will employ AESA radars, integrated EW/ECM, BVR, and AEW&C.

In this case, the Rafael's superiority isn't from being a generation ahead, but in terms of its intrinsic performance parameters. So how much additional range can its radar offer? How much farther can it target and fire the JF-17, etc.

That's the problem at hand, and on top of that, the MBDA Meteor is going to be a headache for the PAF. But if you're thinking of a 1:1 match, you'll need the Typhoon with Meteor or Block-72 with AMRAAM-D. The latter is plausible (along with the F-16V upgrade for the existing fleet).

But in the absence of that, the next option the PAF has is double up on the Block-3s and see if it can leverage Western radars to get the Meteor. So the Block 3 isn't as good as the Rafale, but the PAF can field 2-3X the number, and with their own AESA radars and long range BVR, they'll be real issues for the Rafale (not a cake walk), which may force India to not bother.

It has an AESA seeker with a speed of Mach 5 and range in excess of 150 kms at least.

I thank all of you for your detailed input on this thread, thanks again.

Sir @waz
to add something, mods can change the title of the thread becoz some PDF members dont like the title or delete the thread if they want. thanks again.

 

[GumNaam]

in french, rafale means a "gust of wind".

Huh...the Thunder sent by the one true God will in sha Allah blow away the millions of fake gods as if they were sand grains in a "gust of wind".

Don't worry...Thunder shall dominate & rule the skies over india. Have faith in the one true God and your forces.

 

[Zibago]

IMHO, we are relying too much on JF-17 Block III, lets be realistic, it will be no match against Rafales. JF-17 is a liteweight aircraft, Rafales is the medium weight. Rafales has more hard points and long range BVR missiles. I think PAF missed the trick, They should have gone for the J-10C for the stop gap. I even doubt J-10C are at par with Rafales.
we all know that F-16 Block 70/72 is at par with Rafale, but we dont have any of those. I am not talking about men behind machine, i am talking about machine vs machine. sure 36 numbers arent that big, but those 36 units can turn the table in air combat. dont forget that S-400 is also coming. we have no answer for it. quoting 27th Feb incident all the time, wont save us from future short comings. we should never underestimate our adversary. thats what indians do. we shouldnt do it, instead find the solution for it . our AZM project is still on paper. it will take some good 15+ years to complete. our current F-16 fleets going to retire in 10 to 12 years. so wheres the stop gap ? its a serious issue. i am sure PAF knows about it. but we didnt see anything solid coming out from PAF. i am not going into financial issues becoz, when we go for battle or war, we should be prepared for it, no matter whats the cost. JF-17 and Rafales are like Apples and Oranges. our only answer and option is F-16 Block 70/72.
senior members on PDF can share some thoughts on this topic.

Project AZM is the counter for that

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

We might be left with SU35s or used EFT with upgrades.

 

[araz]

What AM (R) Shahid Lateef meant was for starters that was the correct approach. Taking on too much as a first step would have been counter productive. Case in hand as example, the LCA/Tejas project. But we need to up the ante at some point in our pursuit for self reliance. Depending on others mean that you can never go against their interests at times of potential conflict. So sooner rather than later, we need to have an aviation engine program in parallel to project Azm. Otherwise our options will always remain to be limited and our future programs will always remain to be compromises.

A really good post. People here are comparing two entities which are unknown at least to us. Specially JFT Bl.3 is totally an unknown factor as it has not yet been delivered to PAF. However Rafale is known about and any half decent secret service will give you an idea about the contents of the plane. Till such time we know both of these factors we cannot compare the two. So this whole thread is defunct.
As to the engine development we will remain dependent on foreign providers for the next 3-4 decades if not sooner. The reason is engine manufacturing technology is the pinnacle of metallurgical engineering and is cost prohibitive. We dont have the level of development as of yet to be able to make forays into it. Our priorities should be other technologies which can be mastered sooner. A small country like Pakistan will never be indepoendent in manufacturing of engines as it is not financially viable.
People also forget what a gift these pioneers have given us in the form of JFT. A fighter which is our own which we can manufacture in numbers and install any software/Hardware which we want. Whereas India needs 45 million a pop to upgrade its M2ks and that also at the mercy of french industries. We can install whatever we want at whatever time we want or can do so.
Independence in aviation industry is a huge gift and we should not degrade it. Rafale will come and we will try our best to fight it. When it happens we will know the outcome, but please remember that even at a rate of 2:1 loss a loss of a rafale will be a sore loss to IAF which will sting both financially as well as morally. If we lose a JFT we can replace it at a fraction of a cost in 3-4 months. Can IAF do the same?
A

 

[[--Leo--]]

its not semi stealth and engine that i don't like ... rest is fine with JF-17 block 3

and we have not done R&D on 4th generation jet and ready to make 5th generation jet

i hope they make it but i heard the news its single engine jet 5th generation

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

In an environment like that which the LOC gives, you don't necessarily need a jet which has superior number of hardpoints or range. It's all about placement and approach.

Remember, in a recent simulated exercise, it was a decades old jet which hazed Rafale in WVR combat.

If you watch DCS youtubers some of whom are actual pro combat pilots. You will realize BVR is also about technique and man behind the machine (to good degree), positioning and timing.

 

[jamal18]

It's not what you have, it's how you use it.

 

[araz]

- The X vs Y comparisons sure are fun when the capabilities of both are known. As of now we don't know the capabilities of JFT BLK III and so a comparison of both whilst declaring one is no match for the other is rather ludicrous to be frank.

- When we talk about 4.5 Generation of aircrafts the conversation goes like this EF-2000, Rafale, SU-35 and GRIPEN NG. Heck Gripen NG was included in the MMRCA for which Rafale was the winner. While being very over simplistic, we can atleast conclude that whilst the heavier aircrafts will have certain edge over the lighter aircrafts, it is rather insulting to dismiss the lighter category of aircrafts altogether. After all, the lighter aircrafts may present advantages of their own say faster turn around times, lower frontal radar cross sections etc.

- Most importantly, when two airforces go head to head, its one wholistic system/organization against another.The 27 Feb episode proves the very fact that if your system has better cohesion, integration and a better Human Resource, even though on face value your numbers and quality is lagging but the results are in your favor. Let's not forget that the same indian fancucks claimed that MKI beat the EF-2000 12-0 in exercises touting it the second best aircraft in the world and what not. After 27th, the statements have changed to "agar raphallleeee hota"

Man I have been missing your posts. Where have you been? Good to see you posting again.
Regards
A

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

And, the IAF Hidutva pilots are no match for the PAF Muslim pilots...

Why?? The following explanation is only for the Ehl-i Iman:

Thanks to the Mushrik rituals corresponding to the acts of "worship", as per the KITAP these aircrafts become the den of the Sheyatin. And, couple it with the Hindutva pilots, who carry tons of Sheyatin by default. And, the Sheyatin take full controls over their minds. Therefore, it'll be a fight b/w Hindutva pilots, infested with the Sheyatin/Kufr/Shirk etc., vs Muslim pilots with Iman/Ihlas, especially designed for the human beings - the best of the creation. Please note the intellectual levels in terms of sciences, engineering, technical capabilities, fine judgements etc. are way apart for the Jinn and Insan..

 

[Dazzler]

IMHO, we are relying too much on JF-17 Block III, lets be realistic, it will be no match against Rafales. JF-17 is a liteweight aircraft, Rafales is the medium weight. Rafales has more hard points and long range BVR missiles. I think PAF missed the trick, They should have gone for the J-10C for the stop gap. I even doubt J-10C are at par with Rafales.
we all know that F-16 Block 70/72 is at par with Rafale, but we dont have any of those. I am not talking about men behind machine, i am talking about machine vs machine. sure 36 numbers arent that big, but those 36 units can turn the table in air combat. dont forget that S-400 is also coming. we have no answer for it. quoting 27th Feb incident all the time, wont save us from future short comings. we should never underestimate our adversary. thats what indians do. we shouldnt do it, instead find the solution for it . our AZM project is still on paper. it will take some good 15+ years to complete. our current F-16 fleets going to retire in 10 to 12 years. so wheres the stop gap ? its a serious issue. i am sure PAF knows about it. but we didnt see anything solid coming out from PAF. i am not going into financial issues becoz, when we go for battle or war, we should be prepared for it, no matter whats the cost. JF-17 and Rafales are like Apples and Oranges. our only answer and option is F-16 Block 70/72.
senior members on PDF can share some thoughts on this topic.

A legitimate question, how much do you know about the blk 3?

 

[maverick1977]

as for capabilities are concerned, JF17 BlK3 will be very close to Rafael and better than F16 block52 Pakistan has.

 

[Dazzler]

The superiority of a next gen fighter is generally established against older gen jets. But with the Rafale and Block-3, both aircraft will employ AESA radars, integrated EW/ECM, BVR, and AEW&C.

In this case, the Rafael's superiority isn't from being a generation ahead, but in terms of its intrinsic performance parameters. So how much additional range can its radar offer? How much farther can it target and fire the JF-17, etc.

That's the problem at hand, and on top of that, the MBDA Meteor is going to be a headache for the PAF. But if you're thinking of a 1:1 match, you'll need the Typhoon with Meteor or Block-72 with AMRAAM-D. The latter is plausible (along with the F-16V upgrade for the existing fleet).

But in the absence of that, the next option the PAF has is double up on the Block-3s and see if it can leverage Western radars to get the Meteor. So the Block 3 isn't as good as the Rafale, but the PAF can field 2-3X the number, and with their own AESA radars and long range BVR, they'll be real issues for the Rafale (not a cake walk), which may force India to not bother.

You forgot the blk 3 will use pl-15e as the main bvr, and sd-10a as secondary option. So many assumptions in this thread. The RBE-2 AESA is smaller, has less TR elements than the KLJ-7A from what we know so far. The latter is known to have around 1100, while the former is known to have just under 900. SPECTRA is widely overrated in many ways, more so by the Indians who had their love shifted from the fallen MKI to yet to be tested Rafale. No body knows the effectiveness of SPECTRA suite against a high performance AESA radar and under intense EW environment. The so called mighty N011M Bars got owned alright.

Hint, there was a reason why finalizing the specs of blk 3 took three years. As for Sabir Shakir mentioning surprises, PAF has several under its sleeves and some of these are indigenous developed solutions.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

You forgot the blk 3 will use pl-15e as the main bvr, and sd-10a as secondary option. So many assumptions in this thread. The RBE-2 AESA is smaller, has less TR elements than the KLJ-7A from what we know so far. The latter is known to have around 1100, while the former is known to have just under 900. SPECTRA is widely overrated in many ways, more so by the Indians who had their loved shifted from the fallen MKI to yet to be tested Rafale. No body knows the effectiveness of SPECTRA suite against a high performance AESA radar and under intense EW environment. The so called mighty N011M Bars got owned alright.

Hint, there was a reason why finalizing the specs of blk 3 took three years. As for Sabir Shakir mentioning surprises, PAF has several under its sleeves and some of these are indigenous developed solutions.

Is this true? @messiach @Oscar @Bilal Khan (Quwa)