JF-17: Low Level Strike (Concept)

[Falgrine]

Hi,

Thank you---. Paper science is just paper science---the truth comes out when sh-it hits the fan---.

Respectfully, the concepts that I and the other gentleman were alluding to are pretty much in practical use for quite a long time i.e. they are not mere theoretical abstractions. Multipath cancellation is a well studied phenomenon. But since my research background is more in the domain of information processing/state estimation, I can talk better from that aspect as you might have judged from my earlier posts. However, there is always room for learning newer outlooks (theoretical /practical), and as a student of science I am always open to that. Thank you sir.

 

[帅的一匹]

Every make of fighter has its limits.

thats why we need different platforms.

We can't count on JF17 to do everything.

So far the best choice are Su-30sm or J16.

 

[Armchair]

IF China reduces the price on the JH-7As, PN might pick a few up... just saying.

 

[MastanKhan]

IF China reduces the price on the JH-7As, PN might pick a few up... just saying.

Hi,

Pakistan does not know how to ask freebee from china---.

JH7A at Pasni / albandin is the need of the chinese as well to protect the naval assets---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

Pakistan does not know how to ask freebee from china---.

JH7A at Pasni / albandin is the need of the chinese as well to protect the naval assets---.

Its a strange duality, like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. When it comes to Western equipment, begging is taken to a new level, never seen in the whole wide world. When it comes to China, "quality is no good", they don't want it, even if it is free.

 

[MastanKhan]

So I was reading one of @MastanKhan posts about how low level strike is important, and why Pakistan doesn't / didn't buy the JH-7A/B.

While Red Flag and other combat drills have shown that low level penetration is increasingly perilous, it is still not an outdated concept.

I also thought about how some of the senior posters were discussing the replacement of Mirage-Rose with FLIR, a night strike capability that no other asset has.

All this got me thinking...

The central concept of the JH-7A comes from the Spey engine, an engine originally designed in the 1950s/60s for a low level naval strike aircraft, the Blackburn Buckaneer. The Soviet navy had just built a line of giant cruisers, which where fast and deadly, and the British didn't have anything that could counter them. So the British decided to respond asymmetrically.

They decided they needed a low level strike aircraft. But the engines where the issue. You see, most engines are designed, even today, with a mid-to-high altitude in mind. This means that they have very little range when aircraft with such engines are flown at low level.

The genius of the Spey engine was that it was designed for low level performance. It gave the Blackburn Buckaneer excellent low level strike range. Later it gave the British F-4 Phantoms better range and a shorter takeoff.

The engine was / is highly simple and easy to maintain, and effective. It was a pioneering Turbofan engine, although low aspect ratio. They kept improving this engine over time.

When the West became friendly with China, they gave this engine to the Chinese. But they didn't give them the best and latest version - the 204/205s, which has single crystal blades and many other modifications, creating higher and better thrust.

However, the Chinese managed to get the 204/205s by hook or by crook (well by buying off used, old discarded ones that where originally sold to a company using them as spare parts for Rolls Royce equivalent gas turbines.)

This may in fact be how China got hold of the single crystal blade tech that later found its way into the JF-17 (classified superior performance than vanilla RD-93s).

ANYWHO

The Spey isn't too much bigger than the RD-93. Which got me thinking that if one wishes to, they could design a "Mastan Khan Thunder". Of course, it would need a two seater from the get-go and EMI options. Along with an optional stereo system. D)

A Spey engined JFT would make a cheap and effective low level strike option, similar to the Jaguars with IAF. They could also be used for naval strike. With lengthened fuselage like the JF-17-B model, but without the second seat, it would have a lot of additional fuel.

The biggest sub-system cost in the JF-17 is very likely the RD-93. Switch that out, and it becomes really, really, cheap. The second most expensive item is probably the radar. Switch that out with an FLIR and it becomes even cheaper.

A Mastan Khan JF-17 (I hope our respected sir doesn't mind) would be very very competitive in the world market. And would be one of the few dedicated low level strike platforms in the world. Probably could cost as little as 10-12 million a piece (complete guess).

What other low-level dedicated strike platforms are in the market?

1. JH-7A.
2. ??? Seems nothing else. everything else is out of production.

Using the latest Chinese iteration of the Spey, the JF-17-MK (MK stands for Mastan Khan) would be a low cost, dedicated strike platform that can defend itself. A PAF Jaguar-type, albeit considerably superior to the Jaguar.

I don't know if its practical or not, but just an idea I wanted to share in a fun and friendly way.

Hi,

Thank you for finding this post---.

What most readers are forgetting when reading my posts on the JH7A's is that I keep talking about the primary mission of this aircraft---that is for naval air strikes---or strikes on the ground targets while flying over water and targeting ground targets from over the ocean---.

Again I am not mentioning flying over land in low flight mode at this time.

Do the math if you are flying 400 miles parallel to the enemy coastline---at an altitude of 3000 feet---would that be ok @Armchair ---how far out and how high does the enemy awac has to fly to find you---if they know where to find you---and what if you are able to fly lower than that---what happens then.

What if you are flying 500 ft above the seas---what then---?

View attachment 460611




Question no one is Can JF-17 fly longer with single engine compare to flying in its normal altitude, if it can then you can use it as low level attack naval fighter to avoid enemy radar But if I am not wrong it's probably wouldn't able to fly long in low level.
Best option available is JH-7A which design as this role but it will lack fighting enemy Mig-29K and other potentially SU-30 / Rafale as it design as bomb truck not multi role fighter . If Pakistan wants to use JH-7A it need to buy 1/2 squadron of J-11/16/10 fighter to counter any threats to JH-7A . It only possible if PN get enough fund to raise it's dedicated Air wing not PAF secondary role. @MastanKhan

Hi,

There are a lot of things that I talked about before feb 27th---but most posters and readers did not have the ability to understand what I was saying---because they did not know any better.

Now they all know---the primary fight is BVR---then no merge---tuck your tail in and run away---.

So in this scenario---as people can understand the concept better---you don't need a high performance aircraft to intercept enemy aircraft at BVR ranges---.

You can have another 2 JH7A's capable to launch the 8 BVR's each at the enemy and while the enemy is busy evading those BVR's---your strike capable JH7A's have slipped into the strike launch zone and released their wares at the enemy targets---and run away---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

Thank you for finding this post---.

What most readers are forgetting when reading my posts on the JH7A's is that I keep talking about the primary mission of this aircraft---that is for naval air strikes---or strikes on the ground targets while flying over water and targeting ground targets from over the ocean---.

Again I am not mentioning flying over land in low flight mode at this time.

Do the math if you are flying 400 miles parallel to the enemy coastline---at an altitude of 3000 feet---would that be ok @Armchair ---how far out and how high does the enemy awac has to fly to find you---if they know where to find you---and what if you are able to fly lower than that---what happens then.

What if you are flying 500 ft above the seas---what then---?



Hi,

There are a lot of things that I talked about before feb 27th---but most posters and readers did not have the ability to understand what I was saying---because they did not know any better.

Now they all know---the primary fight is BVR---then no merge---tuck your tail in and run away---.

So in this scenario---as people can understand the concept better---you don't need a high performance aircraft to intercept enemy aircraft at BVR ranges---.

You can have another 2 JH7A's capable to launch the 8 BVR's each at the enemy and while the enemy is busy evading those BVR's---your strike capable JH7A's have slipped into the strike launch zone and released their wares at the enemy targets---and run away---.

Hi MK, PAF was able to knock out a USN aircraft carrier flying low level (dangerously low, perhaps 100 ft or around that ballpark). So you are spot on, flying low would make it incredibly difficult for IN or IAF to spot these planes. By the time they do, its too late.

Here is the funny part - IAF doesn't have enough assets south to either reliably detect a PN JH-7A or meaningfully intercept them over the long stretch of coast it has to defend against.

You have made a good point - how could PAF be blind to the capability the JH-7A would bring?

I think the main reason is that the PAF doesn't see coastal attacks on India as part of its mission set. It thinks that that job is the PN's. But PN cannot do this without having an air force of its own. Which it depends on PAF for. Which bring us to the chicken and egg problem.

 

[Basel]

In that configuration against DARIN3, doubt it.

PAF already have Mirages optimized for strike and nap of earth flying and those are being upgraded further.

 

[Armchair]

The problem with the Mirage is that it does not do much for threatening the Indian Coast and the Indian South. Which is the strategic diversionary challenge, that if fulfilled, drastically changes the Indian calculus.

 

[MastanKhan]

The problem with the Mirage is that it does not do much for threatening the Indian Coast and the Indian South. Which is the strategic diversionary challenge, that if fulfilled, drastically changes the Indian calculus.

Hi,

I keep seeing this phenomenon again and again in the pakistanis---they don't understand FEAR---FEAR FACTOR---they under estimate the workings of FEAR FACTOR---and for that reason they don't have the ability to understand it looking thru the eyes of the enemy---.

These pakistani boys and adults need to look thru the eyes of the enemy when talking about the offensive weapons---what concerns them and what targets will hurt them the most from their perspective---.

Now they know the F16 is capable---they know that the JF17 is capable---they know that the Mirage 3/5 are still capable---. But they see a massive gap---a heavy strike aircraft---.

 

[MastanKhan]

@Armchair

Write a detailed article on this subject and just focusing on the function need and usage of the JH7A's with upgrades like aesa---air to air refuelling buddy refuelling kit---electronic warfare aircraft---naval strike mission aircraft---.

Write your part---send it to me---I will do my part---merge it and post it on " submit an article "---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

I keep seeing this phenomenon again and again in the pakistanis---they don't understand FEAR---FEAR FACTOR---they under estimate the workings of FEAR FACTOR---and for that reason they don't have the ability to understand it looking thru the eyes of the enemy---.

These pakistani boys and adults need to look thru the eyes of the enemy when talking about the offensive weapons---what concerns them and what targets will hurt them the most from their perspective---.

Now they know the F16 is capable---they know that the JF17 is capable---they know that the Mirage 3/5 are still capable---. But they see a massive gap---a heavy strike aircraft---.

Imagine the fear factor that would be created if Pakistan had 100 JH-7As. Imagine the destructive power they would hold, a flight of four could carry enough firepower to destroy any Indian port. Imagine what would happen if that firepower landed on Mumbai.

 

[MastanKhan]

Imagine the fear factor that would be created if Pakistan had 100 JH-7As. Imagine the destructive power they would hold, a flight of four could carry enough firepower to destroy any Indian port. Imagine what would happen if that firepower landed on Mumbai. View attachment 628624

Hi

That was the threat in 2002---that money will start flying out of india never to come back---economic doom.

Hi,

I keep seeing this phenomenon again and again in the pakistanis---they don't understand FEAR---FEAR FACTOR---they under estimate the workings of FEAR FACTOR---and for that reason they don't have the ability to understand it looking thru the eyes of the enemy---.

These pakistani boys and adults need to look thru the eyes of the enemy when talking about the offensive weapons---what concerns them and what targets will hurt them the most from their perspective---.

Now they know the F16 is capable---they know that the JF17 is capable---they know that the Mirage 3/5 are still capable---. But they see a massive gap---a heavy strike aircraft---.

Hi,

Most pakistani kids are illiterate---. They have no clue what happens when you are afraid of something---.

Fear makes you nervous

Fear makes judgemental errors

Fear makes wrong decisions

Fear creates panic in ranks

Fear makes a person not complete his job

Fear makes you make wrong decisions

Fear creates panic

Panic spreads like wild fire and consumes others that are around you

Panic results in chaos.

Strikes on mumbai will create panic chaos fear at the same time---.

 

[Armchair]

@Armchair

Write a detailed article on this subject and just focusing on the function need and usage of the JH7A's with upgrades like aesa---air to air refuelling buddy refuelling kit---electronic warfare aircraft---naval strike mission aircraft---.

Write your part---send it to me---I will do my part---merge it and post it on " submit an article "---.

Its a good idea but you're famous in the PAF. Everybody already knows all your ideas in that high nosed institution. And the PN also seems to know (my best guess as for some odd reason, things that get discussed on this forum seems to get rectified by the PN on the quick). Which is actually pretty nice.

Just the other day we saw a big shot of the PA on PDF treating you like a legend (which you are). If the juice is worth the squeeze I'll write the article, although it will take considerable time and effort which I would rather spend making $$$.

I've banged my head long enough in PTI think tanks and although some of my ideas did go through, the impact was about at best 1%. Imran Khan's thinking process is like us but his party doesn't want to interfere in military matters. I actually had a request, while in a think tank to research a policy paper on conscription, a paper looking at the best practices of a certain classified country that was specifically requested. (which is one of my pet peeves). Supposedly (and I can't know 100% if that is true, the request came from the PM himself).

The long and short of my experience with PTI think tanks is that nothing really happens. Just a lot of hullabaloo and drawing room conversations. The only silver bullet I found was to use my position in such think tanks and directly Fedex documents to the table of IK, but that worked back in 2012/13 which may not work now that he is PM.

If you can find a way to get this idea to the desk of the naval chief, then this may just be an effective exercise. I really don't have any influence or contacts left in Pakistan anymore. My experience of this kind of lobbying tells me that unless we reach the top, nothing will move.

 

[MastanKhan]

Its a good idea but you're famous in the PAF. Everybody already knows all your ideas in that high nosed institution. And the PN also seems to know (my best guess as for some odd reason, things that get discussed on this forum seems to get rectified by the PN on the quick). Which is actually pretty nice.

Just the other day we saw a big shot of the PA on PDF treating you like a legend (which you are). If the juice is worth the squeeze I'll write the article, although it will take considerable time and effort which I would rather spend making $$$.

I've banged my head long enough in PTI think tanks and although some of my ideas did go through, the impact was about at best 1%. Imran Khan's thinking process is like us but his party doesn't want to interfere in military matters. I actually had a request, while in a think tank to research a policy paper on conscription, a paper looking at the best practices of a certain classified country that was specifically requested. (which is one of my pet peeves). Supposedly (and I can't know 100% if that is true, the request came from the PM himself).

The long and short of my experience with PTI think tanks is that nothing really happens. Just a lot of hullabaloo and drawing room conversations. The only silver bullet I found was to use my position in such think tanks and directly Fedex documents to the table of IK, but that worked back in 2012/13 which may not work now that he is PM.

If you can find a way to get this idea to the desk of the naval chief, then this may just be an effective exercise. I really don't have any influence or contacts left in Pakistan anymore. My experience of this kind of lobbying tells me that unless we reach the top, nothing will move.

Hi,

We will both write a joint detailed article on the subject matter and put out our effort together---if that is okay with you---.

See---my hunch was right about you---. There is more to you than what is visible---hehehe. You go ahead make the money---.