JF-17: Low Level Strike (Concept)

[The Raven]

I didn’t say they are useless or advocated for JH-7 itself. All I’m saying due to PAF
controlling the AC, PN has never been able to create a dedicated air arm for air cover and suffered due to it. Our enemy next door has a dedicated air arm while ours is controlled by AF and decision is up to them how to use the AC. If the AF needs those planes for other missions PN would be left open from air attacks. If I’m not mistaken it was retired PN Chiefs during the ‘65 and ‘71 Wars that saw this short coming and subsequent Chiefs haven’t done anything to rectify the situation. So their is an obvious learning curve issue in the branches of the military.

I was using the metaphorical "you", "your" and not referring to you in particular but others on this thread who've insistently argued for the inane idea of using the outdated JH-7. Having a dedicated air arm for the navy would be useful, however, comparison with the Indians is somewhat not valid because they have a significantly larger coastline and aircraft carriers. You also have to remember that having a land based naval air arm means aerial refuellers and AWACS support, which historically we have lacked, and hence why the PAF and PN have been reticent for dedicating resources in this direction in the absence of the force multipliers. Of course, that has changed now. But that doesn't implicitly mean a separate novel platform to fulfill that role, especially the likes of JH-7, J-15, or J-16 for reasons discussed ad nausem. If anything, a squadron or two of JF-17 would be the most likely candidate given the synergies which already exist in terms of training, logistics, and dedicated AShM weapons, as well as the addition of the B model. Furthermore, if the reports of the PN developing their own dedicated long range MPA is true, that would further need to be factored into any solution. But this is all obvious, the PN and PAF have factored all this into their threat perception matrix and any decision regarding a dedicated naval air arm will need to take these factors into account, as well as the less obvious details which are not available openly.

 

[MastanKhan]

False analogy. It's not a case of placing the armed forces on a pedestal. Unless you're a member of the senior leadership in the military, we're not privy to the details and available resources that they have. It's easy for any Tom Dick and Harry to criticise from the outside, but when people who rely on Google think they can do a better job than the military, then they're delusional to say the least. The military are run by humans, of course they'll make mistakes, but to call them incompetent and useless simply because they don't induct an outdated and largely irrelevant fighter (JH-7) simply because you're a fan of the aircraft, is bordering on ignorant narcissisism.

Hi,

Please do talk about your ignorance and 'self-belief' for yourself that these generals know more---.

You may rely on google---in my age group---google is just a recent invention---. Please if this is the level of your intellect that you would give example of 'google' for knowledge---that is terrible.

 

[MastanKhan]

I could not have put it better. In a previous life when Mr MK was not on my ignore list he argued that goving in to Asif Zardari's request for a 400 million $ add on to the M2K price was entirely justifiable and therefore the person who did no acceed to that demand was incompetant. This was at least done to the very person who refused to acceed to that demand so one can opine that he was expressing an opinion.
A

Hi,

If your child or mother was dying of a disease---you would have paid any amount to get the medicine for her survival.

Muslim man----Learn it from the Isareli Yehudis---. Ask them how much money they paid for weapons in 1947-48 for their survival.

Ask them how much over priced those weapons were---? What did they pay---3 time the price---4 times the price or was it 5 times the price they paid---cash upfront---take it or leave it---.

 

[StormBreaker]

Hi,

Please do talk about your ignorance and 'self-belief' for yourself that these generals know more---.

You may rely on google---in my age group---google is just a recent invention---. Please if this is the level of your intellect that you would give example of 'google' for knowledge---that is terrible.

Eid Mubarak,
Kahan ghayab hain hazrat

 

[araz]

I didn’t say they are useless or advocated for JH-7 itself. All I’m saying due to PAF
controlling the AC, PN has never been able to create a dedicated air arm for air cover and suffered due to it. Our enemy next door has a dedicated air arm while ours is controlled by AF and decision is up to them how to use the AC. If the AF needs those planes for other missions PN would be left open from air attacks. If I’m not mistaken it was retired PN Chiefs during the ‘65 and ‘71 Wars that saw this short coming and subsequent Chiefs haven’t done anything to rectify the situation. So their is an obvious learning curve issue in the branches of the military.

The other reason I lay the issue with the Chiefs of Armed Forces during critical times after ‘65 & ‘71 they refused to give access to enough funds to build up the Navy. None thought if your under naval blockade you lose one of two access to trading routes and at the mercy of your enemy.

The naval air arm is a luxury we cannot afford. The lack of resources is one of the reasons PAF is maintaining legacy platforms like the M3/5s in spite of replacements being in sight. Thos is the fault of the people holding the reigns of power

 

[The Raven]

Hi,

Please do talk about your ignorance and 'self-belief' for yourself that these generals know more---.

You may rely on google---in my age group---google is just a recent invention---. Please if this is the level of your intellect that you would give example of 'google' for knowledge---that is terrible.

You didn't even know about the JF-17's FCS system and you're calling other people ignorant?! I taught you a lesson on the hybrid analogue and digital FBW system the JF-17 employs whereas your "superior knowledge" had no clue. If you think you know so much, what are you doing here on a forum? You should be sitting in GHQ running the show. Check your eyes and re-read my post. I was referring to ignoramuses like you who think they know more than anyone else simply by using Google as their source material. Those who make the most noise are usually the ones who have little to no clue.

 

[adelphi]

The naval air arm is a luxury we cannot afford. The lack of resources is one of the reasons PAF is maintaining legacy platforms like the M3/5s in spite of replacements being in sight. Thos is the fault of the people holding the reigns of power

Brother, I won't call it a luxury but a necessity to protect our sea lanes. However I do agree that we can't afford this necessity at the moment. The tanking of our economy has a blessing in disguise and has forced us towards in-house development. We would have purchased Rafales instead of developing BLK-3 had our economy been doing well.

 

[_NOBODY_]

The naval air arm is a luxury we cannot afford. The lack of resources is one of the reasons PAF is maintaining legacy platforms like the M3/5s in spite of replacements being in sight. Thos is the fault of the people holding the reigns of power

In the past it would have been considered luxury but right now naval air arm is 100% a necessity.

 

[Deino]

With this attitude and foul mouth, coupled with this humongous ego "teaching" MK lessons... wow... you won't get far in life. I blame your parents for a lack of proper upbringing. Sadly at this stage there is no cure for your condition.

says exactly the one who's constantly provoking, who's constantly posting - to put it mildly - "strange" theories and conclusions out of the blue without any explanation or the will to admit any questions, who's twisting words and always gets insulting and personal rude when any other one only thinks a certain statements should be corrected, put in context or one needs to ask for proof or an explanation. The one who was banned exactly for this behaviour by a senior moderator (and NOT by me as repeatedly claimed!) and who's always following the wildest theories from another certain member with the similar unpolite attitude.

Anway ... I would suggest to come back to the topic, which is related to the Low-level strike concept and not such low-level posts!

 

[araz]

In the past it would have been considered luxury but right now naval air arm is 100% a necessity.

Why do you think it to be the case. Most of our ships for the forseeable future will be around littoral water. Offensive movements will be via Orions and Subs. What will a naval air arm do. If you want to attack Bombay why not employ a CM/BM which would be a lot cheaper than a lost plane and pilot.All aggressive ship directed offence can be from SO Distances via JFT. So why do we need twin engined behemoths. We have no aggressive designs over anyone neither are we ablue water navy.

A

 

[PakFactor]

Why do you think it to be the case. Most of our ships for the forseeable future will be around littoral water. Offensive movements will be via Orions and Subs. What will a naval air arm do. If you want to attack Bombay why not employ a CM/BM which would be a lot cheaper than a lost plane and pilot.All aggressive ship directed offence can be from SO Distances via JFT. So why do we need twin engined behemoths. We have no aggressive designs over anyone neither are we ablue water navy.

A

This is the issue "no aggressive design" it's the same mantra our army throws out under "minimum deterrence" name me one competent army that spouts as much "minimum deterrence" nonsense other than Pakistan. The Western Philosophy has won in modern warfare using all resources a nation can muster and throwing it at the enemy. Tell me you spend billions on ships and you can't afford to provide air cover? Your willing to leave your ships open to air assault(s)? Don't tell me you honestly think the PAF will have spare planes during a full on war to give to PN. Even the PA has their Aviation Arm, although even they are dragging *** on T-129 ATAK.

I run a business, and had I applied Pakistan Military mantra of Minimum Deterrence trust me my competition would have chewed me up, and threw me out of the market by now. One thing I like about Western train of through, you either go big or go home, and you need to be ruthless to achieve your goal. Hence, they are on top and we're at the bottom of the food chain.

 

[MastanKhan]

Eid Mubarak,
Kahan ghayab hain hazrat

No---I have been banned from most of the discussion threads---by The Eagle.

 

[Khan vilatey]

So I was reading one of @MastanKhan posts about how low level strike is important, and why Pakistan doesn't / didn't buy the JH-7A/B.

While Red Flag and other combat drills have shown that low level penetration is increasingly perilous, it is still not an outdated concept.

I also thought about how some of the senior posters were discussing the replacement of Mirage-Rose with FLIR, a night strike capability that no other asset has.

All this got me thinking...

The central concept of the JH-7A comes from the Spey engine, an engine originally designed in the 1950s/60s for a low level naval strike aircraft, the Blackburn Buckaneer. The Soviet navy had just built a line of giant cruisers, which where fast and deadly, and the British didn't have anything that could counter them. So the British decided to respond asymmetrically.

They decided they needed a low level strike aircraft. But the engines where the issue. You see, most engines are designed, even today, with a mid-to-high altitude in mind. This means that they have very little range when aircraft with such engines are flown at low level.

The genius of the Spey engine was that it was designed for low level performance. It gave the Blackburn Buckaneer excellent low level strike range. Later it gave the British F-4 Phantoms better range and a shorter takeoff.

The engine was / is highly simple and easy to maintain, and effective. It was a pioneering Turbofan engine, although low aspect ratio. They kept improving this engine over time.

When the West became friendly with China, they gave this engine to the Chinese. But they didn't give them the best and latest version - the 204/205s, which has single crystal blades and many other modifications, creating higher and better thrust.

However, the Chinese managed to get the 204/205s by hook or by crook (well by buying off used, old discarded ones that where originally sold to a company using them as spare parts for Rolls Royce equivalent gas turbines.)

This may in fact be how China got hold of the single crystal blade tech that later found its way into the JF-17 (classified superior performance than vanilla RD-93s).

ANYWHO

The Spey isn't too much bigger than the RD-93. Which got me thinking that if one wishes to, they could design a "Mastan Khan Thunder". Of course, it would need a two seater from the get-go and EMI options. Along with an optional stereo system. D)

A Spey engined JFT would make a cheap and effective low level strike option, similar to the Jaguars with IAF. They could also be used for naval strike. With lengthened fuselage like the JF-17-B model, but without the second seat, it would have a lot of additional fuel.

The biggest sub-system cost in the JF-17 is very likely the RD-93. Switch that out, and it becomes really, really, cheap. The second most expensive item is probably the radar. Switch that out with an FLIR and it becomes even cheaper.

A Mastan Khan JF-17 (I hope our respected sir doesn't mind) would be very very competitive in the world market. And would be one of the few dedicated low level strike platforms in the world. Probably could cost as little as 10-12 million a piece (complete guess).

What other low-level dedicated strike platforms are in the market?

1. JH-7A.
2. ??? Seems nothing else. everything else is out of production.

Using the latest Chinese iteration of the Spey, the JF-17-MK (MK stands for Mastan Khan) would be a low cost, dedicated strike platform that can defend itself. A PAF Jaguar-type, albeit considerably superior to the Jaguar.

I don't know if its practical or not, but just an idea I wanted to share in a fun and friendly way.

If we add canards and delta wings to your spec isn’t it the j10c lol

kv

 

[araz]

This is the issue "no aggressive design" it's the same mantra our army throws out under "minimum deterrence" name me one competent army that spouts as much "minimum deterrence" nonsense other than Pakistan. The Western Philosophy has won in modern warfare using all resources a nation can muster and throwing it at the enemy. Tell me you spend billions on ships and you can't afford to provide air cover? Your willing to leave your ships open to air assault(s)? Don't tell me you honestly think the PAF will have spare planes during a full on war to give to PN. Even the PA has their Aviation Arm, although even they are dragging *** on T-129 ATAK.

I run a business, and had I applied Pakistan Military mantra of Minimum Deterrence trust me my competition would have chewed me up, and threw me out of the market by now. One thing I like about Western train of through, you either go big or go home, and you need to be ruthless to achieve your goal. Hence, they are on top and we're at the bottom of the food chain.

OK. You exhibit so much anger I am scared to respond to you now.
However if I were to respond to your post I would go like this.
Nonsense or not there is sanity in our policy. IF we look at facts and forget about the mantra of one muslim equals four kuffar or more,we have an enemy 4 -5 times larger than us with an area the same and reources the same if not more. Our loan repayment is an issue for us at the moment. Finances are dire.
So we go and buy arms which we cannot afford and which may never be used in their useful lives when the country infrastructure is screaming for investment, people are dying of disease and poverty and lack of jobs. Then we have the MINOR issue with the IMF which has its claws dug in our flesh asking us why all this money is being spent on defence acquisitions. FATF issues are also relevant as any aggressive designs will allow our enemeies to hoot the hell out of their mantra of Pakistan is a terrorist state as they sponser terrorism and incite people to war against their neighbours. You might laugh at this but at this point in time, we are scuppered as there is no support from anyonefor Pakistani narrative. Even Chinese and Turkish support is being given with advice for us to be extremely cautious.
Unlike a business statecraft is another issue of the right combination of aggression and diplomacy. We also need to define what is our goal. Just to clear this issue once and for all Kashmir is not the goal of thearmed forces and I have written about the complexities involved even if we were to militarily take kashmir. So one needs to ask what the goals are. And this is where there is no answer. Till we define our national goals we cannot progress.
A